Mod Motor Box Madness

[Mercracer]

Here are some parts to make a 32V conversion in a Box Panther easier...
http://www.karkraft.com/46%20ADAPMAN%20PATENT.jpg
http://www.karkraft.com/MOD%20BELLHOUSE%20003.jpg

302 intake to 4V 4.6
C4 bellhousing to 4.6

[DuceAnAHalf]

Performance automatic has the 4.6 to C4 bells also, well its not a bell, it is the profit ring so you can install into the bell, they have the same thing for a glide also

[Nathan in MI]

What about 4.6 to AOD?

[Mercracer]

What about 4.6 to AOD?

Since AOD has in integral bell, it isn't quite so simple. You can get a $450 (non SFI) or $750 (SFI) kit to modify your AOD cases for a 4.6 or 460 though.... http://www.lentechautomatics.com/images/trans.jpg
You can also get a electronic delete valve body for a AODE/4R70W

[Nathan in MI]

So that basically takes a 4R70W and makes it work like an old AOD? Interesting...wouldn't that maybe be a cheaper route to go for a WR-AOD?

[interceptor1985]

I want to see that intake adapter in action!....And I would skip the AOD altogether and swap in a 5speed T5 or a TKO I bet it could be cheaper too in the long run.

[DuceAnAHalf]

So that basically takes a 4R70W and makes it work like an old AOD? Interesting...wouldn't that maybe be a cheaper route to go for a WR-AOD?it makes the 4R70W full manual valve body i believe

[packman]

There is also a place in Deleware called The Detail Zone that specializes in mod motor wiring harnesses for these kinds of swaps. Unforunately I am committed to making the older 1st gen. Lightning motor work in the CV. Otherwise, I would seriously think about making a 5.4L mod motor and trans from a Lincoln Navigator work in the 86 CV.

http://www.thedetailzone.com/


Packman

[Lincolnmania]

what do you use for a distributor?

[Mercracer]

what do you use for a distributor?

You still have a distributorless ignition. Pretty straight forward stuff.

[P72Ford]

A carbed modular engine? I'll keep my pushrods if I'm going to have a carbed engine.

Lets not take a step back in technology here folks. Besides, the OHC engines don't make any power (well not muich over 400) without the use of a power adder (ie: turbo, supercharger). Lord knows a carb isn't the best setup for a power adder such as a S/C or a turbo.

[Mercracer]

A carbed modular engine? I'll keep my pushrods if I'm going to have a carbed engine.

Lets not take a step back in technology here folks. Besides, the OHC engines don't make any power (well not muich over 400) without the use of a power adder (ie: turbo, supercharger). Lord knows a carb isn't the best setup for a power adder such as a S/C or a turbo.


Dude..... 32V OHC heads are a giant leap in technology over NoPo/HO/GT40 5.slow heads.....
The 4V Mod motors have more power potential than any factory pushrod engine without going inside the motor. Mod motors love RPMs. Older Cobra Motors have aluminum blocks.... There is no huge weight penalty over a 5.0. Don't forget that N2O is a power adder. Nitrous and carbs for teh win.....
If for no other reason, imagine how that motor would look... The looks of a Boss or SOHC for a fraction of the price....
If you wish to stay FI, then bolt on a Victor Jr or Victor carb intake with a throttle body elbow and stick injectors in it. You could still put a blower or nitrous plate on there.
These adapters merely open up a whole world of additional induction choices...
Just a few years back, you were stuck with factory or custom fabricated sheetmetal intakes....

[mrltd]

ooh, tri-duece on a 4.6 32v..... that'd be badass.

[torquelover]

How about ITB's and some revs?

[nitroracer]

ooh, tri-duece on a 4.6 32v..... that'd be badass.

Thats the ticket right there!

[Grand Marquis GT]

Very nice.

How much for that adaptor? :evil:

[Mercracer]

$499 for the adapter and then build it however your heart desires...

You can't tell me that one of these engines wouldn't look cool hiding between the fenders of a Vic.........:2up:

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ooh, tri-duece on a 4.6 32v..... that'd be badass.
http://www.karkraft.com/KK46%20Engine%206V1.jpg
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http://www.karkraft.com/KK46%20Engine%204V2.jpg
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http://www.karkraft.com/46ENG8V3.jpg
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http://www.karkraft.com/KK%20Engine%20PartsWEBER%20012.jpg
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:club:
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[Mercracer]

If 4.6 isn't good engough and you want the motor to stick way through your hood, here are some 5.4 choices...
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http://www.karkraft.com/54ENG4V2.jpg
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http://www.karkraft.com/54ENG8V6.jpg
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How about 5.4 32V High Rise 2x4V and Nitrous....:evil:
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[Nathan in MI]

Aren't there any headers available for those things? Can't help but notice that they've got those pretty induction systems on 'em and then ugly log exhaust manifolds.

[Mercracer]

Aren't there any headers available for those things? Can't help but notice that they've got those pretty induction systems on 'em and then ugly log exhaust manifolds.

Of course there are, but Kar Kraft doesn't make headers and doesn't bolt your engine in for you......

They have crate engines for sale, so the pictures are of their induction on their crate engines.....

Use your imagination......:cool:

[Nathan in MI]

Well, I didn't know, that's why I asked.

[DuceAnAHalf]

Mod motor exhaust manifolds are not as big of a restriction as 302 manifolds

[mrltd]

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z258/BrianH1976/617bc632.jpg

[Grand Marquis GT]

Good lord, those engines look SWEET! :drool:

[P72Ford]

Good lord, those engines look SWEET! :drool:


How true. Those big blue valve covers make them look really nice.

[P72Ford]

Dude..... 32V OHC heads are a giant leap in technology over NoPo/HO/GT40 5.slow heads.....
The 4V Mod motors have more power potential than any factory pushrod engine without going inside the motor. Mod motors love RPMs. Older Cobra Motors have aluminum blocks.... There is no huge weight penalty over a 5.0. Don't forget that N2O is a power adder. Nitrous and carbs for teh win.....
If for no other reason, imagine how that motor would look... The looks of a Boss or SOHC for a fraction of the price....
If you wish to stay FI, then bolt on a Victor Jr or Victor carb intake with a throttle body elbow and stick injectors in it. You could still put a blower or nitrous plate on there.
These adapters merely open up a whole world of additional induction choices...
Just a few years back, you were stuck with factory or custom fabricated sheetmetal intakes....

OK, you make some good points.

But, in a naturally aspirated (read no power adders; that includes nitrous) power competition between an OHC Ford, and a pushrod Ford, the pushrod motor would win. Spend the same amount on each one (huge disadvantage for the OHC) and the pushrod engine would tool all over the OHC, just because the pushrod motors are capable of so much more displacement. Hell, spend 1.5 times what you spend on the pushrod on the OHC, and it would still be outpowered. OHC engines like the boost/ power adders. Unless your carbed OHC engine uses nitrous as a power adder (cheating, in my honest opinion), then carbing your OHC engine is pointless to me. Yeah, it looks cool, but since when has that motivated me?

Even if you took a 4.6 to the limit (what 302 ci?), and compared it with a stock dimension 302, I am fairly certain the pushrod engine would dominate. The OHC engine could be carbed or injected, it really doesn't matter. The OHC engines have a "low" power ceiling in NA form.

I still would go with a pushrod engine if I'm going carbed. Cheaper, and most likely more powerful.

[mrltd]

Stock 5.0L cobras were 245HP and the 4.6L was 300hp...

Ford crate motors, The DOHC 5.0L makes 500hp, baddest 302 crate motor is under 400hp.


Obviously there is something there. Nevermind Chevy and Dodge.

[Mercracer]

Even if you took a 4.6 to the limit (what 302 ci?), and compared it with a stock dimension 302, I am fairly certain the pushrod engine would dominate. The OHC engine could be carbed or injected, it really doesn't matter. The OHC engines have a "low" power ceiling in NA form.

I still would go with a pushrod engine if I'm going carbed. Cheaper, and most likely more powerful.

Bargain basement cheap assed economy macaroni and cheese with a side of ramen noodles cheap......... 5.0 OHV Windsor for teh win....

Look cool as shit.... spend a few more bucks (maybe an assload more).... more power potential with a power adder without even touching a valve cover bolt..... 4.6 all day mang........
Regarding N2O being cheating......It isn't cheating if you are winning....... Second place is the first loser....

The 1995 351W (5.8) Cobra R was pitiful compared to a 2000 5.4 Cobra R.

2003 Mustang Cobra..... Ford GT... Shelby GT500 Super Snake........ Production cars passing emissions......try that with a stroked 351W.. I rest my case.......


Where am I right now?????

I LOVE MACARONI AND CHEESE!!!!! :beer:

[P72Ford]

1.) Your arguments are fine if we are talking stock. I remember talking about modifications though...

2.) Macaroni and cheese is good.

3.) The OHV engines are alot more appealing to me. Why? They're cheap. Anything that is expensive to lay out is never going to be as much fun.

[Mercracer]

Cheap is nice, but winning is MUCH more fun than loosing. A Mod Motor holds the current record in Pro 5.0. There are NA 4.6 motors powering Mustangs into the 11s, 10s and even 9s.
The botton line is that most people reading this do not have the money to build a serious mod motor car. Most people will be putting a 302 in their box Panther. Thankfully, some of us are making different plans....
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/conformity.jpg
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/individuality.jpg

[P72Ford]

Cheap is nice, but winning is MUCH more fun than loosing. A Mod Motor holds the current record in Pro 5.0. There are NA 4.6 motors powering Mustangs into the 11s, 10s and even 9s.
The botton line is that most people reading this do not have the money to build a serious mod motor car. Most people will be putting a 302 in their box Panther. Thankfully, some of us are making different plans....


I will not be putting a 302 in my box panther. I will be leaving the 351.

And even if I had a really cherry box panther with a 302 in it, I'd probably swap in a 351 (not sure on carbed or EFI though). I guess the 351 just appeals to me more. There's nothing wrong with Mod motors; I'm just saying you can go just as fast (on the NA argument) for less money.

Also, I forgot to comment about nitrous and cheating (which I mentioned above). I may have used "cheating" incorrectly. What I mean is this: if the power isn't there all the time (and unfortunately nitrous does run out), then it really isn't something I want. If I don't get the same response everytime I mash it, then I really don't want it. Its personal opinion though; not cheating as I claimed earlier. I've driven in nitrous equipped vehicles (most notably an M715 w/ 400 chevy and a 125 shot) too; I really don't know why people claim its so great.

Oh yeah, what the hell is loosing?




J/K

[P72Ford]

2003 Mustang Cobra..... Ford GT... Shelby GT500 Super Snake........ Production cars passing emissions......try that with a stroked 351W.. I rest my case.......

I never read this post before.

Mercracer, you of all people should know better than to compare a late 1960's car with 2 modern day super cars. Really, if the chassis inadequacies of a late 60's Mustang don't put it at enough of a disadvantage, I don't know what would. You're comparing apples to oranges; retardedly old tech with very modern tech. I am scolding you for this too! That is a ridiculous comparison.

Aside from the chassis, consider this. Let Ford spend the same time they spent at developing the mod engines for the GT and Cobra on revamping the 428 in that late 60's Shelby 'stang. Let Ford use modern technology as well as modern materials and manufacuring techniques to "redo" the 428 in the Shelby. Then, since we're talking NA here, let them remove the blowers from the GT and the Cobra. Now, compare the engines. Its not hard to see which would dominate, is it? 428 cubic inches is a tough grade to climb.

Hell, I bet the late 60's Mustang, inadeqaute chassis and all, might even give a modern Cobra a run for its money with the theoretical engine described above. Now, if the Cobra had its blower, that Shelby would probably be dusted, though not from a lack of power.

But, we're comparing engines, and as such antiquated chassis should not be brought into the discussion.

This being said, I do not dislike modular engines, in fact, I really like them. I'm glad Ford is using OHC V8's in their new vehicles, I think its great. I do not doubt that the modular engines are durable (especially in stock) form. I think their downfall is their lack of displacement. The 5.4 as used in a truck is so inadequate when compared to a HEMI, iForce or 6L GM gas engine. It is basically underpowered. I think if the displacement was larger, the OHC engines would be unstoppable.


Mercracer, as someone who has an abundant knowledge of engines, what have you heard of Ford's latest experimental engine, as used in Don Bowles Mustang?

[Mercracer]

I never read this post before.

Mercracer, you of all people should know better than to compare a late 1960's car with 2 modern day super cars. Really, if the chassis inadequacies of a late 60's Mustang don't put it at enough of a disadvantage, I don't know what would. You're comparing apples to oranges; retardedly old tech with very modern tech. I am scolding you for this too! That is a ridiculous comparison.

Aside from the chassis, consider this. Let Ford spend the same time they spent at developing the mod engines for the GT and Cobra on revamping the 428 in that late 60's Shelby 'stang. Let Ford use modern technology as well as modern materials and manufacuring techniques to "redo" the 428 in the Shelby. Then, since we're talking NA here, let them remove the blowers from the GT and the Cobra. Now, compare the engines. Its not hard to see which would dominate, is it? 428 cubic inches is a tough grade to climb.

Hell, I bet the late 60's Mustang, inadeqaute chassis and all, might even give a modern Cobra a run for its money with the theoretical engine described above. Now, if the Cobra had its blower, that Shelby would probably be dusted, though not from a lack of power.

But, we're comparing engines, and as such antiquated chassis should not be brought into the discussion.

You must be having a bad day..... Go to Dairy Queen, have a bannana split, think about what you just typed and start over with your post....
I mentioned 3 modern supercars. I didn't bring up anything from the 60s. I compared a NA 5.4 with a NA 5.8. The 5.4 spanked it. Ford has added superchargers to their engines to make power since the 80s. If my sister had a penis she would be my brother. She doesn't, she isn't, and Ford hasn't had a 400HP NA engine since 1971. Forget about the IFs and the woulda coulda shouldas. Ford does not have a big bore 427 cube inch V8 mod motor that makes 600HP NA. Don't hold your breath for it ever to happen. The FE series was obsolete and replaced by the 385 series. The 385 series heads have continued to evolve and the FE heads have been passed up as much less has been done to that design.

[P72Ford]

I have to eat now, I will reply to this later.

Also, WTF is a super snake? That was a term coined for special Shelby Cobras, like the one built for Bill Cosby (the only auto CSX ever).

[Mercracer]

Mercracer, as someone who has an abundant knowledge of engines, what have you heard of Ford's latest experimental engine, as used in Don Bowles Mustang?

I haven't heard anything really. I didn't make it to any NMRA races this year. All I have heard is that it is a big bore 7L motor.
I think that Ford has gone the wrong way over the past 18 years with its big stroke small bore motors. The shortcomings of the 5.4 and V10 have illustrated this. Hopefully this is a sign of change coming.

[Mercracer]

I have to eat now, I will reply to this later.

Also, WTF is a super snake? That was a term coined for special Shelby Cobras, like the one built for Bill Cosby (the only auto CSX ever).


Have you not picked up a Ford magazine over the past year? That is the latest and greatest Shelby Mustang coming out. Just google it dude......

[mrltd]

There are a few different Super Snakes, Unique performance also uses that name for their blown stroker GT500E, that are also endorsed by Shelby....

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/27/another-one-seriously-shelby-and-ford-to-produce-gt500-super-s/

http://www.uniqueperformance.com/supersnakeGT500E.aspx

[P72Ford]

I do not live under a rock, I know about the new GT 500 and all of its unimpressiveness. I know its overweight and is pretty slow considering the 500 hp it has. I get a Mustang rag and it has detailed accounts of the GT 500's performance. I have never read or heard one referred to as a super snake. Live and learn. I was very disappointed in the "super snake." I mean, it was supposed to cost less than 40k, and be something really special. I though it would be head and shoulders above the regular Mustang, but it really isn't. For 200 more horsepower its only marginally faster. Its heavy in the front, which obviously is a severe detriment to its handling capabilities. They are capable of grotesque (and I mean grotesque) horsepower with upgraded blowers and other bolt ons. I think it was lackluster on the part of the factory though.

I agree with you on the V10 and 5.4 (and there off square nature). However, I'm not hoping Ford delivers some new big bore huge displacement OHC engine. I just wonder if thats where part of their horsepower deficit lies.

You'll have to excuse me Mercracer, I have always been told that 385 series engines were turds. It all stems from my Father, a diligent follower of the 390, 427, 428 (He worked in a Ford dealer in the late 60's; thats where his influence is at). He has more 390 components squirrelled away than anyone; he has the market cornered. 390's and 9" Ford rears; they're all boat anchors to me (his parts). Even still, he admits that the FE series is very antiquated. Maybe the early 385 series engines were good; my experience with later ones has proved my Father's opinion. Fuel economy so ridiculous its almost funny; unless you're paying for the gas. No power whatsoever either. I'm not impressed. However, it is fair to say I have no experience with earlier 385 series engines. Maybe the 429 PI, and the 429 Thunderjet type engines were different. I'd suspect the 385 series went in the carpper after 1973 as emissions started to boom? My dad had a '73 Mercury station wagon with a 429. he said it would crap all over his '76(?) Lincoln w/ the 460.

I think my personal hang up with the 385 series engines is that I equate them to truck engines (at least the 460). But, the head design seems far superior to the olds school FE, what with canted valves and all.

BTW, I would go to Dairy Queen for the Banana split, but I make much better ones at home. Plus, I'd spend $30 in gas to get to the nearest DQ driving my pig. Its not that it isn't worth the $30 (I have a chronic addiction to ice cream), its just that its raining here, and I'm not going out again today.

[mrltd]

Anything after 73 and smog choking everything off was a joke.

I had a 68 429 2bbl and that thing would break the right rear loose at 65mph.

[interceptor1985]

I thought this was about engines...not the cars that they are in........And there has been a NA 400hp SOHC 4.6 like what come in the crown vics...muscle mustangs and fast fords did it....it was badass...look it up:drool:

[Mercracer]

I do not live under a rock, I know about the new GT 500 and all of its unimpressiveness. I know its overweight and is pretty slow considering the 500 hp it has. I get a Mustang rag and it has detailed accounts of the GT 500's performance. I have never read or heard one referred to as a super snake. Live and learn. I was very disappointed in the "super snake." I mean, it was supposed to cost less than 40k, and be something really special. I though it would be head and shoulders above the regular Mustang, but it really isn't. For 200 more horsepower its only marginally faster. Its heavy in the front, which obviously is a severe detriment to its handling capabilities. They are capable of grotesque (and I mean grotesque) horsepower with upgraded blowers and other bolt ons. I think it was lackluster on the part of the factory though.


The latest Super Snake is over 600HP (725HP option) and nearly 600 ft lbs of torque on the "base" model. The 2003 Terminator Cobra stickered for mid 30s. How would a GT500 be less than $40K? Look for Super Snakes being near $60K. These are the good days. These are the best times so far. Even in the 60s, Joe Burger Flipper couldn't afford a new Shelby, but he could pick up a used Mustang and make it quick. A new GT Mustang is over 300HP. That's more peak HP than a Boss 351 made as delivered from the factory.
Ford hasn't worried about as delivered 1/4 mile times in over 35 years. The factory didn't offer a drag pack from 1971 until now. Now you have to get it through FRPP.

[Mercracer]

I
You'll have to excuse me Mercracer, I have always been told that 385 series engines were turds. It all stems from my Father, a diligent follower of the 390, 427, 428 (He worked in a Ford dealer in the late 60's; thats where his influence is at). He has more 390 components squirrelled away than anyone; he has the market cornered. 390's and 9" Ford rears; they're all boat anchors to me (his parts). Even still, he admits that the FE series is very antiquated. Maybe the early 385 series engines were good; my experience with later ones has proved my Father's opinion. Fuel economy so ridiculous its almost funny; unless you're paying for the gas. No power whatsoever either. I'm not impressed. However, it is fair to say I have no experience with earlier 385 series engines. Maybe the 429 PI, and the 429 Thunderjet type engines were different. I'd suspect the 385 series went in the carpper after 1973 as emissions started to boom? My dad had a '73 Mercury station wagon with a 429. he said it would crap all over his '76(?) Lincoln w/ the 460.

Using truck smog engines to represent 460s is like using a NoPo Crown Vic 302 or the boring 5.8 Vics to represent the best in small blocks.
Look at the lates SCJ FRPP heads for the 385 engines. The 429 SCJ motors had many of the features that people pee their pants over when they dream about a 427. Big bore, short stroke, heavy duty block, healthy breathing ports, etc...

[Grandmarchris]

what do you use for a distributor?

This
http://www.msdignition.com/2006/06-20.htm

[P72Ford]

The latest Super Snake is over 600HP (725HP option) and nearly 600 ft lbs of torque on the "base" model. The 2003 Terminator Cobra stickered for mid 30s. How would a GT500 be less than $40K?

You obviosuly never read Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc prior to the release of the GT 500. All of those magazines touted it as being less than 40K. They even interviewed that head of SVT (the asian guy) and he also claimed a sticker right below 40K. What happened to that? The stock GT 500 is still a lackluster piece. I'd take a stock Mustang GT base model) with 15K in cash over one of those.

As for the "Super Snake": way , way , way too flashy and gawdy. WTF, seriously?

I wonder how it will stack up against a far less noticeable ZO6.

[Mercracer]

I could care less about the Z06. The Z06 is a sports car. The Mustang is a pony car. The Mustang has no competition in its class.
I don't pay much attention to pre-production promises regarding price. The new 7 Litre mystery motor was supposedly talked about in the October issue of MM&FF.

[P72Ford]

The new 7 Litre mystery motor was supposedly talked about in the October issue of MM&FF.

There were no details, and the desciption was brief. It basically said the sparkplugs are on the bottom of the head (like a wedge head), and that the car (Don Bowles Mustang) runs on E85 to the tune of low 9's.

The ZO6 has nowhere near the mass appeal as the shelby. But, when it is looked at in a comparison test, sports car or not, it is competition to the Super Snake. It is priced less, and I'm sure performance will be about the same. Despite the 700+ hp the snake has, the ZO6 should give it a run for its money. No one cares whether its a pony car or a sports car. People care about the appeal and the performance, and even though is a chivvy, I bet it'll be stiff competition. Sure the snake has the power advantage, but its portly to say the least, and I'm sure Ford won't have it suspended adequately to even compete with a ZO (especially with a solid axle) on any road that isn't straight.

Ford should put the same engine in the now defunct GT, and keep the same level of handling it has. I doubt all of those 725 horses will ever see the ground effectively in a Mustang. I'm sure the 600 horse snake would get devoured by the ZO6. Its going to take more than 100 extra horses to outrun a ZO6 in a GT 500.

[Mercracer]

The ZO6 has nowhere near the mass appeal as the shelby. But, when it is looked at in a comparison test, sports car or not, it is competition to the Super Snake. It is priced less, and I'm sure performance will be about the same. Despite the 700+ hp the snake has, the ZO6 should give it a run for its money. .

If it is one thing Ford guys do and do well is take what Ford gives them and beat up on everyone with it. After about the first 10 minutes on the street, the Ford guys will have tweaked the Super Snakes to seek and destroy any and all unsuspecting Z06s they might meet..... The only Z06s giving SS Shelbys a run for their money will be the ones fortunate enough to find an owner who can't drive and who can't handle a wrench....

[P72Ford]

If it is one thing Ford guys do and do well is take what Ford gives them and beat up on everyone with it. After about the first 10 minutes on the street, the Ford guys will have tweaked the Super Snakes to seek and destroy any and all unsuspecting Z06s they might meet..... The only Z06s giving SS Shelbys a run for their money will be the ones fortunate enough to find an owner who can't drive and who can't handle a wrench....

Maybe true, but what about those guys that decide to do some simple mods to their ZO6? From what I've read, a better cam and headers will bump the power to 600. The thing is, the Corvette might be able to plant that extra power too, seeing as it is designed as a little bit of a better handler than any Mustang.

Anyway, I suspect the SS Shelby's will be fairly unsual to see on the street. What are they, 2007, 2008 only? Its a cool idea, with nostalgic flair (although a little gawdy), and I really do hope it is as dominant as everyone hopes.

Its slated to run about 72K, but I'm not sure if thats with the 600 or 725 horse engine. 72 G's is a lot of money, especially if you're like the majority of the population with 5 figure salaries. I suspect most people would rather by a base Mustang GT, or GT 500 and mod that. In 5.0 they were able to get 700+ whp with a Kenne Belle (2.6, or 2.8) blower and smaller pulley, a larger tb, long tubes w/ full exhaust and a tune. They made even more with the addition of a water/ meth injection. It is not hard to make nasty power with the 5.4 superchared engine. I would rather have a regular old GT 500 over the KR or SS, because even though it is somewhat rare, its not as rare as the KR or SS. I wouldn't feel bad about beating on it. I'd have it modded myself (the 725 horse SS doesn't have a warranty anyway).

[Mercracer]

Like I said, I eat macaroni and cheese too so I won't be buying a SS any time soon either. It is a sure deal that my motor at SF08 is going to have pushrods....

[Pirate]

Okay, time to add my $2.00's worth....

First of all? the OHC motors are superior engines. In addition, have spent some time playing with some N/A 96-up Cobras, I have very little reason to ever go back to a regular OHV engine. Run any 4.6 cobra up to 6800 rpm. It doesn't sound like it's straining. Try that with a 302, or 351? Almost every regular OHV engine I have worked on, built, or driven sounds sloppy in comparison simply going over 4K, short of a couple of NASCAR winston cup motors I have heard, in person, on the dyno, but these are $50,000+ pieces using the best of everything.

Something to keep in mind here: The two engine families are modified in different manners. First thing to do with a 5.0 motor? Cam, intake, and heads, and all of those being replaced by aftermarket pieces. In comparison, a 4.6 DOHC N/A doesn't really need heads or an intake manifold, up until the 400 HP mark, and a simple port/polish job, of the original equipment, takes care of that. Cams add power in both engines, but I have seen simple degreeing-in of stock cams giving some HP boosts, of around 10-15 HP, with custom grinds adding upwards of 40+. Add a blower or turbo, to the stock 4.6 DOHC, with no other mods, and you get a 440 hp beast, more if you feel like living dangerously with the stock pistons. Try that with any stock pushrod small block. Granatelli Motorsports made 1200 HP with a mostly-stock, single-turbo 5.4 Navigator long block....stock crank, stock rods, stock heads and valves, the only mods being different intake(modded stock), pistons, cams, and springs. Try that with any stock small OR big block pushrod engine. It's not going to happen unless you replace.....everything.

It's not really fair to compare the two engine families. The 4.6 is not a small block chevy-style of engine to compare against, even the 4.6 SOHC makes great power with very few mods...and you don't have to replace half the engine with aftermarket parts in the process.

[P72Ford]

Okay, time to add my $2.00's worth....

First of all? the OHC motors are superior engines. In addition, have spent some time playing with some N/A 96-up Cobras, I have very little reason to ever go back to a regular OHV engine. Run any 4.6 cobra up to 6800 rpm. It doesn't sound like it's straining.

There is no doubt that the OHC engines love to rev up. My friends stock Mark VIII loves to get into the high range of the tach.

As far as the stock Navigator block supporting 1200 hp, I'm strugggling with that. I've always read that the rods are the weakest link in the Mod engine short block. The cranks are forgings from the factory though; they should be able to support plenty of power, although 1200 seems like stretch.

They are a great design; I have a fondness for the SOHC 16V more than any of them, although a 32V looks really sweet with the big blue valve covers.

The pushrod and OHC engines really can't be compared, they both have their ups and down.

[mrltd]

Gasoline powered V8's, Internal combustion 4 strokes.... I think they are in the same category.

Well, I guess they could be. Ancient tech, and slightly less ancient tech.

[P72Ford]

Gasoline powered V8's, Internal combustion 4 strokes.... I think they are in the same category.

Well, I guess they could be. Ancient tech, and slightly less ancient tech.

There, I fixed it for you.

I didn't realize I was being scrutinized so closely. I should have noted that they are in two seperate subcategories within the Gas V8 category.

The OHC V8 actually is old tech for Ford. They had the SOHC in the 60's (though not really avaliable for the public). They also had the cosworth (?) DOHC that was run in Indy cars, I think. The Lotus Fords?

I also believe Ford is the only domestic brand to currently offer the OHC V8, no?

[mrltd]

The OHC motor is about as old as the internal combustion motor. Not one new thing about it. It's just taken this long to become cheap and easy to produce (for thick headed americans)

Yeah, I think ford is the only one. Chevy uses a pushrod motor with Ford heads, dodge is using the whole retro Hemi and well, that's it.

[P72Ford]

Ford was the first to make an affordable V8, and they're the first to make and affordable OHC V8, domestically speaking.

Aha, there is a hole in my thought (I just realized this). The Northstar Cad is an OHC V8, that is also affordable. Didn't those come out after the Ford though?

[Mercracer]

Yeah, I think ford is the only one. Chevy uses a pushrod motor with Ford heads, dodge is using the whole retro Hemi and well, that's it.

The new "Hemi" is retro in name only. It doesn't have true hemispherical chambers. Ford's SOHC 427 out hemi'd the Dodge Hemi. It had true hemispherical chambers and made more power. The downfall was cost. Ford's CVH 4 cylinder family used a hemi type chamber in the 80s through the new 2000+ cars. Later SPI heads, Zetec and tehn Durtec heads were evolutions away from this design.

[mrltd]

Yeah, It's all part of trying to get the name out there and use some ancient name recognition.

Yeah, caddy's northstar. Forgot about that. Good motor. Was first used in 1993, and was supposed to be released in 92. That's the same year the Mark 8 debuted and 1 year after Ford started using the 4.6L in the panther chassis.

[DuceAnAHalf]

Yeah, It's all part of trying to get the name out there and use some ancient name recognition.

Yeah, caddy's northstar. Forgot about that. Good motor. Was first used in 1993, and was supposed to be released in 92. That's the same year the Mark 8 debuted and 1 year after Ford started using the 4.6L in the panther chassis.

and it had the starter INSIDE the motor

[nitroracer]

and it had the starter INSIDE the motor

What???

[P72Ford]

and it had the starter INSIDE the motor

Sweet. It seems I remember my auto machinist telling me there was something hidden under the intake manifold. I acn't remember what iut was though. Maybe it was a different engine.

But, theose Caddy's have the water jackets surrounding the bores (like the LS series engines). In high HP apps (yes I've heard of a 1000+ hp Northstar) the bores can actually walk around. Great. Thats why people sleeve the LS series engines when they want to make mucho hp.

Oh yeah, the reason they use the water jackets around the bores is because its cheap, and they can reuse some parts of the mold.

[Nathan in MI]

Sweet. It seems I remember my auto machinist telling me there was something hidden under the intake manifold. I acn't remember what iut was though. Maybe it was a different engine.

Yep, that's the one. Replacing the starter motor on a Northstar involves a set of intake gaskets. :ugha:

[DuceAnAHalf]

What???
the starter is actually under the intake manifold

[Grandmarchris]

Northstar- Worst engine evar.

Any motor that has UV dye put in factory because of oil leaks..
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c195/cn24567/fail-24.jpg

[over2tonsofFun]

I think this would look badass in a panther.
http://www.karkraft.com/KK%20Engine%20PartsWEBER%20012.jpg

kinda looks like the legendary SOHC 427

Tim

[nitroracer]

I think northstar's are pretty damn awesome-even if they burn some oil. An audi 4.2L DOHC V8 is a sweet sounding small displacement 8 too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ytocPEdmsk

[mrltd]

Yes, they leak, but that's the way chevies are. Run really nicely though.

[interceptor1985]

Best swap I ever saw a north star engine in was an 88 pontiac Fiero :drool:

[Freshmeat]

Back on topic... what motor mounts would one use to install a Mod motor into a box Panther? Could one use the mounts from say a '92 Panther? Would the mount vary between 2v and 4v?

[Mercracer]

2V and 4V are the same mount. Panther 4.6 mounts..... some assembly required.....