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    Chevy 350 in a Panther?

    This is for discussion. No "why the fuck would you want to do that?" bullshit, or I'll delete your post.

    Only bringing this up 'cause I have a customer that gives me guff about 350's vs. my 302. It's all in fun, though. However, it got me thinking. I'll do my research when I have time, but I wanted to know what you fellas had for info.

    Why is it that the hot rod runners tend to run 350's in their Ford cars?
    What makes the 350 so desirable?
    What would be the pros and cons of putting a 350 in a box Panther?
    Other than motor mount locations, what other major mods would be needed to make it fit?
    I'm assuming there are adapters to fit a 350 to an AOD. Which Chevy auto or manual transmission could one consider for a racing application?
    Anyone know what options there would be for drive shafts?

    All relevant info is appreciated. Probably more questions later.

    #2
    350s are heavily mass produced and parts are very avail. i dont belive what people say about power and i still think a 302/351 is more reliable. hot rodders use em in their T-bucketd and hot rod cars and what not just cause they are easier to fit between a frame

    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham 2-Door 302/ 5-speed -special blend (GMGT)
    1987 Lincoln Mark VII 5-speed (Errand runner)
    1989 Mercury Grand Marquis (Base Runner)
    2007 Lincoln Town Car Signature Limited (Hustlyn)
    2011 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor (Down with O.P.P)

    Comment


      #3
      I think the biggest reasons to build a 350 for your Ford would be if you can build one cheaper, or maybe if you've always been a Chevy guy and just feel more comfortable building a Chevy. SBCs do have very nice selection of parts available, including hydraulic-roller conversions and the more recent factor Vortec heads (though those limit intake manifold selection), and have the advantage of having an adjustable valvetrain from the factory, as opposed to any '77 or later SBF where you have to install a conversion kit to get adjustable rockers, or else play games with pushrod length and a rocker shim kit.

      I've heard of an old hotrodders adage that Chevies make more horsepower but Fords make more torque .... I think that may have been due in part to the fact that early Ford 351s were saddled with small-valve heads originally designed for the 302 (or in very early ones, 289), combined with amazingly tiny camshafts.

      After all is said and done, it has been well stated that the air and fuel you burn really don't give a flying whatever what name is on your valvecovers, so long as your engine is well thought-out, reliable, and provides performance suitable to your needs.


      As for transmission options, I would think a built TH350 would be the most obvious place to start, unless a four-speed auto is desired, in which case I'd consider trying to locate a 200-R4 or maybe a stick.
      2012 Mazda5 Touring | Finally working on the LTD again!

      Comment


        #4
        Chevy smallblocks are the easiest and cheapest motors to build. There is more aftermarket support for a 350 than any other motor, so that tends to be what people shove in things. A 302 isn't far behind in the support department tho.

        As an engine platform, its not bad, but frankly I don't see where its much better than a Windsor in terms of reliability. A 350 is a good motor, but so is a 302 or 351. Having run and worked on both, I'm not sure which is really more durable all else being equal. They're both very solid platforms, though in bone stock form a 350 probably does make more power becuase the heads suck less. The Vortech 350 really kicks ass, much more so than a 351 does. Its all in the heads though.

        Motor mounts and transmission interface are the biggies. Coolant plumbing and general wiring is the other half of it. Depending on the ignition system, its either cake or a bit of a mess.

        700R4 or 200R4 is probably what you want for racing. 200R4 is what came in the Monte SS and the Grand National, 700R4 is a truck trans. Both have wider ratio gearsets than the wide ratio AOD.

        Driveshaft, NFC. Probably custom.
        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

        Originally posted by phayzer5
        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

        Comment


          #5
          We have contemplated between a 350 and a 302/351 for my dads 48 austin street rod that he and i are building, and the only difference we came accross was the accesiblity of paftermarket, and the the cost. The old addage goes:
          If you build a ford, double the cost of a chevy
          build a mopar, double the cost of the ford,
          build a olds or a caddy, quadruple the cost for the mopar.
          Just remember though, 302s bored .30 over really kick ass!

          PS a 302 resides in the street rod
          Parts Car (Scrapped ) - Vicky - 1987 LTD Crown Victoria: 17x8 Gunmetal Gray Coys C-5 wheels, 235/55-17 Falken Ziex ZE-502 tires. 79 LTD Grille, Taillights, and Turn Signals, Blue LED Dash Lights, PI Rear Sway Bar, 140 MPH Speedometer, Dual Exhaust w/ Mustang Headers.
          New Project: Vicky II - 1981 Ford LTD: 61,XXX miles, virtually rust free. Currently For Sale

          Comment


            #6
            Nowadays to prices aren't really that diffrent. 20 years ago they were but not anymore.

            Chevy cam $169 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7102/
            Ford cam $139 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2122/

            Ford head $579 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60259/
            Chevy head $545 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60899/
            1984 CV tudor 351W, 4bbl, 5-speed best time in the 1/8 8.39 at 80 with 1.80 60ft time.
            2006 P71, 1988 Bronco II, 1986 Baby LTD(5.0 & T5 swap in progress), 1976 16' Hobie Cat, 12' AquaFinn
            http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2651997 UPDATED 20100826
            sigpic

            Comment


              #7
              The price gap is definitely not what it used to be, but I'd still be willing to wager you can put together a healthy 350 for less than it would cost you to make a 351 produce the same power, if only because there is 50 years of used aftermarket parts out there you can get for peanuts. A 302 would definitely cost more, if just for the simple fact you have a displacement disatvantage.
              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

              Originally posted by phayzer5
              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

              Comment


                #8
                but fitting a windsor in a ford is so much easier than fitting a 350 in a ford...the parts are already in production. besides, if you beleive horsepower is in the heads a 302 and a 350 with similar valve train specs should make similar power (though the 302 will be at a higher RPM). a 351 has a slight displacement advantage over the 350 (actually the chevy displaces 346 cubes if i remember right)though i cant remember who has the weight advantage.
                '88 Colony Park, white with wood grain contact paper, K code axle, hose pliers on heater hoses, factory duals, big plans in the future...

                '83 Toyota 4x4, 31x10.50 15, could use a new carb, custom humidifying holes in the roof, mud based paint...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Pesty351 View Post
                  Nowadays to prices aren't really that diffrent. 20 years ago they were but not anymore.

                  Chevy cam $169 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7102/
                  Ford cam $139 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2122/

                  Ford head $579 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60259/
                  Chevy head $545 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60899/
                  Screw the EDL-2122, get the Summit 4440 for a whopping $55. It's the exact same profile.

                  And you forgot the best kind of prices an HO builder can see: getting good used heads, cam, and lifters from a Mustanger buddy for FREE!
                  2012 Mazda5 Touring | Finally working on the LTD again!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The TH700-R4 has a wonderfully low first gear, which is ideal for getting heavy vehicles moving. For the ultimate in durability and simplicity, there really isn't anything better than a TH400. The downfall is that they take alot of power to turn over. A neat thing about the TH400 is that it has an electronic kickdown, which simplifies the linkage BS.

                    I like the 400 small block Chevrolet better than the 350. Somewhat of the bastard of the SBC family... The siamese bore gets a bad rep for cooling issues. However, there are ways to get around these 'issues'. Of course, putting a 400 crank in a 350 allows for a 383, which is almost as nice... and doesn't present the challeneges of steam holes, etc. But I still like the 400 better.

                    Small and big block Chevys share the same motor mount setup, and bellhousings as well, which is nice. Earlier small blocks (think 265/283; long before the 350) had front mounted motor mounts.

                    Some of the earlier heads are desirable for performance, such as the double hump, fuelie, etc. But, I don't think any of those older heads have the provisions to mount accessories, which presents a challenge. I have heard that the best flowing factory heads are the latest Vortec castings offered ('96ish?). GMPP has a bunch of their own heads available as well, and they're more affordable than FRPP pieces. Blocks cast after 1979 have a lower nickel content.

                    And of course, there are two and four bolt main versions of the 350. The 4 bolt is more desirable, but a friend of mine had a 2 bolt block (he was told the car had an LT1 shortblock) that he used to shift at 7800. It wasn't until he sold the car and the new owner pulled the engine and oil pan that he learned it was only a 2 bolt block.

                    They are easy to make power with, that is for sure.
                    **2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302: 5.0/ 6 spd/ 3.73s, 20K Cruiser
                    **2006 MGM,"Ultimate": 4.6/ 2.73/ Dark Tint, Magnaflows, 19s, 115K Daily Driver
                    **2012 Harley Davidson Wide Glide (FXDWG):103/ Cobra Speedsters/ Cosmetics, 9K Poseur HD Rider
                    **1976 Ford F-150 4WD: 360, 4 spd, 3.50s, factory A/C, 4" lift, Bilsteins, US Indy Mags, 35s Truck Duties

                    Comment


                      #11
                      forgot about the dirt cheap 383 factory parts stroker option. Another thing you cannot do with the Windsor. The 351 crank won't fit a 302, and there is no larger Windsor than the 351. The new Vortech heads are very decent though. Just for comparison, a pre-Vortech 350 4bbl marine engine is rated 260-275 hp depending on the model. A Vortech head 4bbl motor is rated 300-330 hp, depending on the model. I know marine cams are a little different and there is no emissions stuff to deal with but the jump in power is definitely noticeable.
                      Last edited by gadget73; 09-06-2009, 12:43 PM.
                      86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                      5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                      91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                      1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                      Originally posted by phayzer5
                      I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I was selling 383 chevy stroker packages at one of my prior parts house jobs; It was a roller-cam 350 block, 383 crank, Z28 roller cam, and L31 Vortec heads. It makes a lot of low-end grunt, and it was freaking cheap....and still is freaking cheap, ten years later.

                        Ford has nothing that is comparable for the money. The GT40P head works okay on a 351W....but would be a tragedy on a 393 stroker, which isn't that expensive to build as a short block, although using stock 351W rods would limit RPM to around 5000-5500.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Pirate View Post
                          I was selling 383 chevy stroker packages at one of my prior parts house jobs; It was a roller-cam 350 block, 383 crank, Z28 roller cam, and L31 Vortec heads. It makes a lot of low-end grunt, and it was freaking cheap....and still is freaking cheap, ten years later.
                          Neato. Not that I anticipate building a Chevy in the near future, but I don't suppose you still have a parts list for that, or maybe a link to a magazine build that used the same or similar parts?
                          2012 Mazda5 Touring | Finally working on the LTD again!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 1987cp View Post
                            Neato. Not that I anticipate building a Chevy in the near future, but I don't suppose you still have a parts list for that, or maybe a link to a magazine build that used the same or similar parts?
                            It's nothing special, I think GM already has it as a '383 torque special' or something in crate-engine form.

                            http://www.sdparts.com/catalog/crate...83Engines.aspx

                            I sold my packages for around $2500 or so (reman block and heads, but there weren't a lot floating around then, so most of the time, this was for a new set), complete with intake. We didn't make a whole lot of money off of the engines, it was the supplemental sales where we made the bigger sales.

                            Want to see where Ford is dropping the ball?
                            http://www.sdparts.com/product/M-600...eAssembly.aspx

                            This next one is freaking cool, however:
                            http://www.sdparts.com/product/17800...ghtTrucks.aspx

                            It's a....bolt-in.
                            Last edited by ; 09-07-2009, 04:56 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Eek, that FRPP 351 isn't much of a deal, is it? Crappy torque, too.
                              2012 Mazda5 Touring | Finally working on the LTD again!

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