getting the AOD tranny beefed up...

[merc91]

i've got a list of things i'm going to get done, and any comments or other things you would think are a good idea, let me hear them. I'm building up the motor to around 300hp in a few months, and possibly 400hp next year (carbed 351) so i would like a tranny that would be comfortable with 500 or so hp...or if its a short enough jump 600 or 700hp would be nice for distant future mods.

-wide ratio gears, and planetary gears
-blue raybestos clutches
-OD "A"servo and 2" band, upgrade drum and other parts with OD
-2400 stall converter (i'm told I have to go lockup still) ...but if I get a 1 piece shaft I can go non-lockup?
-hardened input shaft or 1 piece
-off course all new everything else that can be changed like bearings and clutches and that

-shift kit or valve body that allows for WOT in OD...would you reccomend transgo HP kit with the 5500 governer? Will lentech's street model VB hold OD at WOT when the electric lockout is off or will it just kickdown to 3rd?

[torquelover]

-shift kit or valve body that allows for WOT in OD...would you reccomend transgo HP kit with the 5500 governer? Will lentech's street model VB hold OD at WOT when the electric lockout is off or will it just kickdown to 3rd?

Are you going to enter the Silver State Classic or something? Dunno about Lentech, but the AOD-HP will give you a WOT 3-4 shift. Better make sure your trans, driveshaft, and hood can handle it, though.

[deepsleep]

How much do you guys think it would cost to build this transmission?

[1987cp]

Check out some of SilverFox's threads at Click Click Racing. Among other things, he apparently has an adjustable valvebody I'm rather interested in - he says once that's installed, you can adjust WOT shift points by dropping the pan and turning a screw! The idea seems to be to use that valvebody and a 5000rpm governor (OE or TransGo) for auto shift points up to nearly 6000rpm (I think ... been a while since I read my thread in there).

[Pirate]

Check out some of SilverFox's threads at Click Click Racing. Among other things, he apparently has an adjustable valvebody I'm rather interested in - he says once that's installed, you can adjust WOT shift points by dropping the pan and turning a screw! The idea seems to be to use that valvebody and a 5000rpm governor (OE or TransGo) for auto shift points up to nearly 6000rpm (I think ... been a while since I read my thread in there).

THAT sounds rather interesting.

[1987cp]

Quite. I always figured there must be a way around being stuck with one annoying shift point. Certain people whom I will not specify got me extremely curious with their talk about AOD rides shifting well upwards of 6 grand, which is theoretically impossible with "our" usual component selection.

[Pirate]

Quite. I always figured there must be a way around being stuck with one annoying shift point. Certain people whom I will not specify got me extremely curious with their talk about AOD rides shifting well upwards of 6 grand, which is theoretically impossible with "our" usual component selection.

I managed to get my Moosevan AOD to shift automatically during the 1-2 shift, at 6500 rpm while at full throttle....but of course, the 2-3 shift was at 5200 or so rpm.

[1987cp]

Did you do that by modifying the governor yourself?

[Pirate]

Did you do that by modifying the governor yourself?

I used the TransGo HP governor weights, and drilled one passage just a bit larger. Considering it did nothing for the 2-3 shift....I'd look elsewhere for mystical guidance.

[1987cp]

I used the TransGo HP governor weights, and drilled one passage just a bit larger. Considering it did nothing for the 2-3 shift....I'd look elsewhere for mystical guidance.

Considering that the AOD governor seems to have two plungers, I'd expect such a drilling-related mod to require drilling out an additional passage ... maybe.

[Pirate]

Considering that the AOD governor seems to have two plungers, I'd expect such a drilling-related mod to require drilling out an additional passage ... maybe.

The separator plate was drilled oversize, not the governor.

[merc91]

its going to run me pretty close to $2800 with a full house "racing" buildup with everything you can do to an AOD other than going full manual. I will be going with a hardened 1 peice input shaft with a non-lockup converter in the 2400-2600 range. The tranny shop also advises red clutches with the setup i'm going for...I told them this is still my daily driver and with valve body tuning a 800hp rated tranny can still be friendly on my neck i guess and these guys are AOD guys so its a do-it-once kinda deal and i won't have to worry about my tranny for a long time.

So i'll be getting that buildup done in a month or 2 then the motor in august or september.

let me know what ya's think, andy

[phayzer5]

Holy Jeebus. My tranny didnt cost nearly that much and it'll handle my 408w just fine...

[1980c10]

Truth im pretty sure you can get silverfox's armagedon aod good for 950 hp for that price

[1987cp]

The separator plate was drilled oversize, not the governor.

As in, the plate that mates to the valvebody? I'm not thinking successfully of a "separator plate" that lives on or next to the governor.

[merc91]

keep in mind these prices are canadian...damn near double what it would cost me in the states.

I'm thinking of dropping the whole wide ratio kit, but doing all the rest which should get me pretty close to $2000 or so including the converter all-in-all.

This will be happening late july and i'm pretty pumped to get that done, then buildup the motor in august.

[mitymerc]

Update on tranny?

[merc91]

well now that the motor has been built and is running good now, the tranny doesn't want no part in holding on during shifts so its finally got its turn coming up in 3 weeks for a build...which is looking like its going to run me close to $1500 all said and done plus tax.

-2400 stall non-lockup converter
-Art Carr 1 peice input shaft
-wide ratio gear set
-red alto clutches
-trans-go shift kit with 4th at WOT
-OD "A" servo and 2" band
-big-ass tranny cooler
-governor mod to get close to 5500 rpm shifts

questions...

-how and where would i mount a tranny cooler and is thier a certain size/car model to get the cooler designed for or can i get a generic aftermarket one to put in... my AC is gone so could i mount it up thier?

-how does royal purple or comparable full synthetic tranny fluid look as a choice compared to the common cheeper fluids?

[Pirate]

well now that the motor has been built and is running good now, the tranny doesn't want no part in holding on during shifts so its finally got its turn coming up in 3 weeks for a build...which is looking like its going to run me close to $1500 all said and done plus tax.

-2400 stall non-lockup converter
-Art Carr 1 piece input shaft
-wide ratio gear set
-red alto clutches
-trans-go shift kit with 4th at WOT
-OD "A" servo and 2" band
-big-ass tranny cooler
-governor mod to get close to 5500 rpm shifts

questions...

-how and where would i mount a tranny cooler and is thier a certain size/car model to get the cooler designed for or can i get a generic aftermarket one to put in... my AC is gone so could i mount it up thier?

-how does royal purple or comparable full synthetic tranny fluid look as a choice compared to the common cheeper fluids?

1. Tranny cooler: Go as big as possible (24,000 GVW and up), and get a steel stacked-plate unit (B&M, for example). The aluminum coolers are garbage.

2. Go with at least a Mercon V, or go big. I used to be able to strain synthetic ATF through several paint filters....and reuse it, as it doesn't break down like regular garbage Dextron III, which has no lubricating properties. Right now, however, I don't have a car that I want to spend that kind of money on, lol.

3. A suggestion: Go with either a LenTech or Click-click-racing valve body, I don't trust a kitted-stock VB for anything right now. This is more money, but you get what you pay for.

[mrltd]

I did the WR and regret it.

I run a huge B&M fluid cooler. The biggest one that summit had. It's almost a square foot and 1" thick. Probably want to toss a fan on it too, with the non lockup converter.

[RobertB]

2. Go with at least a Mercon V, or go big. I used to be able to strain synthetic ATF through several paint filters....and reuse it, as it doesn't break down like regular garbage Dextron III, which has no lubricating properties.
I've had great success with Mobil 1 synthetic ATF.

[merc91]

I did the WR and regret it.

You regret doing the wide ratio swap?

[mrltd]

You regret doing the wide ratio swap?

That is correct.

[1987cp]

I've had great success with Mobil 1 synthetic ATF.

That does seem to be decent stuff, from what I can tell. torquelover used to use it in the vehicle I acquired from him, so I sprang for some too when the tranny needed topping off. Expensive, but pretty sure it's still a lot cheaper than Amsoil ATF.

[merc91]

why is it you don't like the WR?

[pantera77]

I have no problems with my WR AOD. To be honest, it's not that much different to me. And the LenTech valve body certainly makes a very noticeable difference.

[mrltd]

Well, you really need a good aftermarket VB if you want it to shift right. It shifts at odd points. I need to go with a bit less gear (which I'm doing). I do have to admit it's one hell of a tough trans.

[1987cp]

Less gear? Especially with your biggish cam / small heads combo and high vehicle weight, I'd think it might enjoy more gear, not less.

[mrltd]

Less gear? Especially with your biggish cam / small heads combo and high vehicle weight, I'd think it might enjoy more gear, not less.


Sure, I could go more, like 4.56-and run in 2nd.. But then the car will be worthless on the trip to and from the autocross or any other driving. And I would also have to deal with up/downshifting on the track. I'm not drag racing...And the car has plenty of power to powerslide all over the place as is, so a little less gear won't hurt me, since I want more MPH out of first gear. And I still have that M90 sitting on the shelf if I really need more power.

[Pirate]

Less gear? Especially with your biggish cam / small heads combo and high vehicle weight, I'd think it might enjoy more gear, not less.

Some people are kind of lost on the need for a 'wide ratio' transmission. What these 302's really need is not a wide-ratio tranny, but an automatic with an extra low gear or two.....which is why the T5 5-speed works so well with these cars, you don't have a lot of rpm drop between shifts. It's better to run a lot shorter gear with a stock AOD than it is to space the gear ratios out even further....unless you've modified the engine to make more power above 4K rpm, and even then, I'm not a big fan of wide-ratio AOD's behind 302's.

If you've got a 351W, 4.6, or other engines? Well, then a wide-ratio tranny might work better.

[1987cp]

Why should a garden-variety 351W necessarily enjoy a wider operating range any more than a comparable 302?

[Pirate]

Why should a garden-variety 351W necessarily enjoy a wider operating range any more than a comparable 302?

Because any decently-upgraded 351W has a broader torque range than any decently-upgraded 302.

[1987cp]

I don't understand. Isn't it just as easy to build either displacement engine to operate happily over nearly any desired RPM range? Or is this statement based on some anecdotal evidence I don't know about?

[gadget73]

It has something to do with the stroke. Longer stroke engines tend to have a wider torque curve where a short stroke engine is usually not going to fare as well. Thats why the 331 and 347 stroker engines are so popular.

[merc91]

my 302 I just built up in the car has lots of power between 2800- to upwards of 5500, it definenlty has more torque than the LOPO under 2500 RPM's, but not an abundance more compared to the higher end power. So once I get past 1st gear its right in the powerband for the other shifts at WOT which is great... its just a case of making 1st more effective.

With a 2400 non-lockup stall, and wide ratio to get my 1st gear putting out more usable power to the wheels I think it would be a good setup, and the non-lockup in my 3rd shift would be handy to keep it from bogging...but thats just what i'm thinking, i've never done this before so your comments are much appreciated.

[mrltd]

I don't understand. Isn't it just as easy to build either displacement engine to operate happily over nearly any desired RPM range? Or is this statement based on some anecdotal evidence I don't know about?

Mine is a unique case in what I am using the car for. I either have to go with less gear, a regular geared AOD, or a 5 speed. (or any combination of those) Each introduces more problems to the situation.



my 302 I just built up in the car has lots of power between 2800- to upwards of 5500, it definenlty has more torque than the LOPO under 2500 RPM's, but not an abundance more compared to the higher end power. So once I get past 1st gear its right in the powerband for the other shifts at WOT which is great... its just a case of making 1st more effective.

With a 2400 non-lockup stall, and wide ratio to get my 1st gear putting out more usable power to the wheels I think it would be a good setup, and the non-lockup in my 3rd shift would be handy to keep it from bogging...but thats just what i'm thinking, i've never done this before so your comments are much appreciated.

Mine bogs more on the 1-2 than the 2-3. Could be the VB I'm running. 1st just isn't very impressive, but a 50-60mph roll dropping to 2nd gear is damn impressive.

[87gtVIC]

I still never got a ride in your car. :( Though I had the best view for the most bad ass power slide in the rain! I never got to ride in a HO (or better panther) and have the owner romp on it with me in it. I want that experience.

[slymer]

my AOD-w has balls from hell off the line... but drops to it's knees at about 30-50 feet. Stock lopo. The lower 1st and that lopo torque heavy cam gives it some nose lifting spirit compared to the stock AOD it came with. At WOT though, it weenies out first gear well before the shift point and second kicks like a mule and really pours on. 3rd however doesn't run well but pulls decently. The shift kit the shop used is probably not the best, but it's a wonderful improvement over the stock valve body (it actually down shifts as you slow down instead of hanging in OD until you hit the gas and then down shift to whatever gear is needed). The 2-3 is too soon and the 4-3 is rather late though. but as DD, it does well.

[1987cp]

Mine is a unique case in what I am using the car for. I either have to go with less gear, a regular geared AOD, or a 5 speed. (or any combination of those) Each introduces more problems to the situation.

True, true. Your particular concerns matter less for a vehicle not being autocrossed. Of course, your anecdotal evidence does seem to suggest that what works for AC does pretty well in terms of entertaining street performance as well.

But, I was actually meaning to needle Pirate, as he seemed to be claiming that a SBF of one stock displacement always has a wider powerband than the other. :D

[Pirate]

But, I was actually meaning to needle Pirate, as he seemed to be claiming that a SBF of one stock displacement always has a wider powerband than the other. :D

Well, you failed.

[1987cp]

Well, you failed.

Whether I failed or not is irrelevant; I don't see you bothering to clarify your obtuse statement.

[87gtVIC]

Stop the bickering please. Any excess bickering will be deleted.

[Pirate]

Stop the bickering please. Any excess bickering will be deleted.

What 'excess' bickering? This particular bickering falls well within normal tolerance levels. 'Excess' bickering clearly begins whenever I start quoting Lincoln.



Whether I failed or not is irrelevant; I don't see you bothering to clarify your obtuse statement.

It's been my experience with both 302's and 351w's, that the 302 has been a bit peaky so far as power production is concerned (the modern EFI intakes allow this engine to 'cheat' with the torque production), with the 5.0 benefiting from a transmission with closer gear ratios....while most EFI 351w's (and warmed-over carbed 5.8's, as well) have more of a flat torque curve, which can take advantage of a wide-ratio gearset.

However you want to look at it, I think the AOD gear ratio should have stayed, as a car that stays closer to the HP and torque peaks accelerates faster (why CVT-style transmissions work so well....in theory), but it needs an additional, lower 1st gear to help it out of the hole....or just switch to a 5-speed.