Exhaust Question

[hemihotrod402]

Ok, so most of you know that I am planning on swapping to an EFI 351 down the road, so I really don't want to spend the money on expensive headers. However, until then I would like a better exhaust note, so my plans would be to delete the cats buy running the catless H, probably magnaflows, then run those out of the stock tails. Now, the question is should I try to pick up some stock mustang manifolds or a set of lincoln logs before I do all of this? Again I'm going to have 351 swap headers eventually, so I don't really want to spend much as far as that goes.

[1987cp]

Are you planning to run tubular manifolds after the engine swap? In that case, there's no harm in getting a full 2.5" system (or do 2.5" crossover pipe to 2.25" S-10 midpipes to 2.25" in/2" out mufflers to stock tailpipes, or whatever you prefer) to mate up to stock 5.0 HO tubular manifolds, which as you know can be had very cheaply. In my testing on my P72, I found that an offroad 5.0 Mustang crossover pipe bolts up to either 5.0 or 5.8 tubular manifolds equally well, though I'm told TOTCG had a different experience with the same vehicle when he tried the same thing with a BBK catted H-pipe.

Otherwise, consider doing nothing for the time being and saving for real headers and a bigger exhaust later on. :)

[packman]

Yeah, I agree with 1987cp. I did BBK shorties with BBK H-pipe. I used half of the mid pipes for a 1994-96 Impala catback which set the mufflers in the stock location of the CV. I then used the tailpipes out to the Trans Am exhaust tips. That was way before I thought about doing a 351W swap, so I will be getting the swap headers and 18" glasspacks for tailpipes to quiet down the engine.


Packman

[jayh]

what do you consider "expensive"?

[Lincolnmania]

look on corral for some inexpensive used aftermarket shorties (stay away from mac!) or use a set of ho shorty headers......do it all in 2.5" and later down the road when you do the 351 swap, get the bbk 351w swap shorties

[1987cp]

what do you consider "expensive"?

$25, unless it's for 4" exhaust tips or trunk-mounted stereo equipment. This is GMN, after all. :rofl:

[hemihotrod402]

what do you consider "expensive"?

I consider a new set of aftermarket 302 headers that are just going to be replaced expensive. If I could pick up a set of aftermarket headers for <75 dollars I would jump on it, or a pair of mustang tubulars for next to nothing.

It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't for the fact I'm going to be forking over 350 bucks in the future for the swap headers. I have no problem with that, its just spending a lot of money twice.

[1980c10]

I will sell you my stock mustang shorties for shipping cost if you want them. I have o2 bungs welded in the collectors, but you can buy plugs and use the ones in the h pipe.

[packman]

$25, unless it's for 4" exhaust tips or trunk-mounted stereo equipment. This is GMN, after all. :rofl:


What's wrong with 4" exhaust tips?:screwy:



Packman

[91grandmarquis]

$25, unless it's for 4" exhaust tips or trunk-mounted stereo equipment. This is GMN, after all. :rofl:

I have trunk mounted stereo equipment,adds about 50hp at the wheels. :3gears:

I had it dynoed.

[hemihotrod402]

I had it dynoed.

desktop dyno FTW! lmao

[jayh]

I kind of feel the same way about 4" tips on 2" pipes, thats pretty much the definition of ricer :screwy:


buy some headers used for $75-100, then when the time comes, sell them for $75-100, even if you lose $25, so what?

building a hot 8.2 deck motor isnt that bad of an idea depending on your goals

[gadget73]

Headers aren't going to do a bunch for you as far as exhaust sound goes, but you sort of do need them to bolt up a Mustang H pipe. My vote is on stock shorties or cheap used aftermarkets. No point spending premium coin if they are just getting replaced in a year or so.

[1980c10]

Pm me if you want my stock ones

[hemihotrod402]

Pm sent

[packman]

I kind of feel the same way about 4" tips on 2" pipes, thats pretty much the definition of ricer :screwy:


Some of the lead sleds have dual 2" exhaust with large 4" echo cans. Nothing rice about that.:p With that said, I realized that my 4" resonated tips wouldn't look that good on the CV. More unused car parts to grace my bedroom junkyard.


Packman

[1987cp]

Some of the lead sleds have dual 2" exhaust with large 4" echo cans. Nothing rice about that

Uh ............ yeah. Because "lead sleds" are so totally all about sensible street performance and keeping a low profile. :rolleyes:

[packman]

And yet, they would steal most of the attention from most "ricers" and probably most of our cars as well:smirk:. That would mean that most cars at the car shows that we like to take pics of are considered "rice"?:confused:


Packman

[1987cp]

In a sense, yes. :D

[packman]

Eegads!!! Tough crowd!


Packman

[zoomie]

BBK shorties FTW!!!!

[Mustang Bob]

use a good set of aftermarket 1 5/8" shorties for a 5.0 mustang, 2 1/4" offroad H pipe, and 2 1/2" mufflers and tail pipes, do it right and all you have to do is widen the H pipe for the 351 swap. stock headers are too crimped up to flow good, 351 mustang shorties are dimpled to clear the steering shaft on a mustang witch is not a problem on a crown vic.

[1987cp]

You don't like BBK 1511s when doing tubular manifolds for a 351?

[Mustang Bob]

every set of 351 shorties i,ve seen have dimpled tubes for steering shaft clearance, the 302 shorties don,t and there is plenty of room by the steering shaft in a crown vic.

[1987cp]

Dimples? I don't think I'd noticed that. I'll have to have another look at the used set that are on a stand in my garage.

Granted, since tubular manifolds are theoretically inferior to "real" headers anyway, I doubt a dimple or so makes much difference ... and most people will probably opt for combos that bolt up without modification. In my case, I found it convenient to be able to swap in a handy roller 302 when a 351 in my possession started ticking, without having to modify the exhaust. And I'm still surprised at the number of members here who run to an exhaust shop for every little thing ....

[pantera77]

And I'm still surprised at the number of members here who run to an exhaust shop for every little thing ....
Not everyone has a welder or likes having a million clamps. I know stock mustang shorties, and crush bent 2" pipes with no-crossover aren't doing me any favors, but I'm not entirely sold on mustang H pipes. You can look at the side of my car and not see a single exhaust component. Unfortunately, it was completely custom made, and doesn't have a spec of rust on it so I have no excuses to replace it.

[packman]

Exhaust work isn't easy. I've been lucky with the systems that I have installed over the years. I honestly wouldn't have tackled the CV exhaust if it weren't for Scott and Gadget73 telling me what fits on our Panthers.


Packman

[jayh]

to each there own, but if you really had to, I dont see 2 muffler clamps being the end of the world

[packman]

It's a little more than two exhaust clamps. Then there's the hangers. If I were building a show car, then I would have welded the exhaust on the CV and flanged the muffs after the Mustang H-pipe for easier disassembly. With that said, the Mustang H-pipe has the benefit of fitting up to the Mustang headers. After that you have your choice of what to use for mid-pipes; I used half of the '94-'96 Impala exhaust. I cut the two bends out and ran it back to the muffs. The lucky/coincidental thing is that they put the muffs in the stock location. Then you use the Impala tails.

The downside is that the H-pipe (at least the one I have) points downward at the cats and then bows back up along the floor pan. The cats srape the pavement on some speed bumps, steep driveway aprons, or large depressions in the road on a lowered car.

Doing the exhaust on a DD is tricky. Luckily this is my mom's car, so I have a little leeway on the projects............to a point; then there's death threats when I start taking too long.


Packman

[mcninetyone]

If you're looking for cheap manifolds, back in the day before EFI and all this other stuff came around. The guys running 289's and 302's use to call stock 351W manifolds,"poor man's headers" because they had that shorty header design. Compared to the other small block manifolds which looked liked logs. They should be fairly easy to find and very cheap. In the late 70's Ford started using these "poor man's headers" on 302's as well as 351's so there are plenty out there, I see them all the time in boneyards. Just a suggestion!

[1987cp]

Couple of questions, relevant to those of us who weren't car crafting in the '70s .... (my excuse is that I wasn't born yet :crazy:)

- What type of applications used these "poor man's headers"?

- Do these manifolds fit a Panther platform with minor tweakage to the exhaust, or are they configured weirdly like first-gen Mustang manifolds that exit directly rearwards or truck manifolds that exit directly downwards?

[mcninetyone]

These manifolds were on anything with a 302 or 351W after 73/74?. All the ones I've seen exit downward at an angle. But they are not going to bolt up directly to any late model 5.0 or 5.8 exhaust without some tweakage. They are just a cheap option for anyone on a tight budget. Right now they are easiest to find on pick-ups and late 70's anything. But of course they won't be on all that 351M/400 junk that was around in the late 70's. Only on 302/351W, midsize and fullsize Fords and Mercury's. And they might also be on early 80's 351W CV Police? I see them all the time at the local pick-a-part. I'm going there tomorrow, if I see a set I'll try to get some good pics. to post.

[1987cp]

Interesting. Sounds like they might actually be more common some places than '86-93 5.0 HO manifolds. Probably not so much around here, since nothing more than 5 or 10 years old seems to sit around for very long.

[mcninetyone]

I took a trip to the boneyard today and saw three sets of late 70's 351W exhaust minifolds. And I took pics. but is it ever hard to get a good pick of a manifold like that!, my pics suck!!!

So here are a couple of links that might help anybody thats interested.


http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=278.0


http://www.mre-books.com/interchange/interchange8.html


The only difference I can see between the early and late 351W manifolds are the way they angle at the exhaust pipe connection. The picks are of early style
manifolds, I've seen a slightly different angle of the later ones. And I've been told there is a slight difference between cars and trucks with these. But I'm certainly not an expert on 351W manifolds. Like I said, they are just a cheap alternative and a quick fix.

[1987cp]

Is it just me, or are those completely different left to right?

I can't make heads or tails of your second link; in the first link, the port-side manifold is definitely one of the configurations I was referring to before, with the "collector" exiting straight back. There's of course nothing wrong with trying a set, but my guess is that it'd require too much exhaust manglement to be worthwhile on a Panther install (provided you could even make it clear the shift linkage), especially when '86-up parts have such a huge convenience factor.

The starboard manifold looks pretty similar to a normal Panther exhaust log....

[jayh]

so why wouldnt 64 1/2 - 66 mustang longtubes fit? do they hit the firewall? or 64-65 falcon stuff?

[1987cp]

Never tried them, but it's crossed my mind. I'm not encouraged by the weird angles from the old stock manifolds, but you never know. I know '86+ longtubes *almost* fit; from the 2-3 instances I've seen and heard of, usually a tube or two needs to be slightly relocated. That's something I'd be willing to attempt now, at least with a cheap set of used headers. DuceAnAhalf says his '86-up 5.0 3/4-length headers fit without modification in his car with a 351 once the column-shift bellcrank was removed, but I don't think anyone's been able to verify exactly what he has.

I think it's the fact that no production headers are known to fit without modification that accounts for tubular manifolds' overwhelming popularity around here (since bolting up shorties and a '86-up H pipe can be done in one's sleep).

[jayh]

Im pretty sure the headers DeuceAnAhalf has are hedman midlengths for a 79-93 302 mustang. I dont know if they even still make those, but I owned a set, bought them new in 1991 and can tell they would fit. one downfall is they are only 1 1/2" primary and 2 1/2" collector, but on a stock motor, they would work great

I think alot of people dont realize how much bottom end and midrange they would pick up from a longtube, thats probably why they havent experimented. in some applications, they feel like you added 30cubes to the motor

[1987cp]

Hedman ... ah ....

[1980c10]

The long tubes I tried for old mustangs hit the engine cross member. The primarys didnt go toward the back of the engine far enough before they started going down.

edit : I have thought about making a set of long tubes from a nice set of shorties. More on this later.

[1980c10]

Okay dont but make fun of my drawing but here is my idea I have had for awhile. The shorty headers already point in the right spot right? So why not chop off the collectors, then add you own tubing until you get you desired length. Then chop them off up by the flanges so you can get a full weld on all the tubes, then put them back together. I figure 1 5/8 primary with a 3'' collector or 2.5'' for that matter is plenty for a stock 5.0. So just say copy cat the primary length of a pair of long tubes for a mustang or something, then make your primarys that long and add a collector.

pics

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp259/1980c10_photo/header.jpg

[jayh]

bbk used to make headers that look identical to that

[1987cp]

Hm.

I don't have a set of 5.0 shorties that aren't in a car, but maybe I can have a look at my BBK 1511s and see whether it looks feasible to cut off the collector and extend the tubes as you suggest. Of course, those will have an inch or two more wiggle room than a 5.0 shorty.

I guess there's also the fact that buying the tubing and a collector will run into some money ... and from what I've been reading recently, the 1-5/8" primaries typical of shorties aren't thought to be much good for a more serious effort .... but still ........ might be an interesting idea for a stockish 200-250hp effort.

[P72Ford]

I have a set of long tubes for a '64-'66 Mustang.

I will have to look at them.

[jayh]

1 5/8 will support a decent amount of power, probably not a restriction until about 400hp n/a

some people want big primaries and throttle bodies on every combo, but its the whole combination. while those parts wont really lose power, alot of combos wont really see any real gains

[packman]

I wonder if four primaries taking up the space that one tube from the H-pipe would work in our Panthers? Probably wouldn't be a straight shot down, but I think it would be worth a look. Especially for those of us that are considering stroker 5.0L and 5.8L builds.


Packman

[jayh]

also, you could start with 1 3/4 shorties

[1987cp]

Who makes a 1-3/4" shorty header? I was just probing SummitRacing.com, but with little success ....

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Engine-Size/5-0L-302/Engine-Family/Ford-small-block-Windsor/Department/Exhaust/Section/Headers/Part-Type/Headers/Header-Style/Shorty/?Ns=Rank|Asc

[jayh]

http://andersonfordmotorsport.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=248&category_id=148&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

http://www.lethalperformance.com/exhaust-headers-shorty-ford-racing-c-6700_6750_6753_6756_6984/ford-racing-86-93-mustang-1-3-4-shorty-headers-z-heads-p-29565

http://www.macperformance.com/store/product1.cfm?SID=3&Product_ID=749

http://www.macperformance.com/store/product1.cfm?SID=3&Product_ID=1593

there are others, you'd have to look

[hemihotrod402]

Ok I apologize for this....massive noob question.

What about long tube headers makes them a better torque/power producer than shorties?

Oh and for the record, I did get the stock shorties from 1980c10, so I'm going to be rolling with those until I get the 351 under way (which probably won't be a while, maybe my sophomore year at college because I will for sure have another car by then)

[1987cp]

What about long tube headers makes them a better torque/power producer than shorties?



Random quote from another board (http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,5302.0.html):


generally, longtubes offer a broader powerband and shorties often have higher peak numbers. keep the collector and primary diameters on the small side, unless you have the power to support the larger varieties.


(coming from me, this is just hearsay, as I've not yet run longtubes myself)

[packman]

Unfortunately I don't have the money to test this out, but after I put the long tubes on Putter Project, I did notice that the 292 engine gained a lot of low end torque. If I could get shorties for comparison for that engine I would, just to see the difference. All I know is that I can pull off in 2nd with a partial load without issue. My father likes to do his 1-3 shift (which drives me nutz given the age and mileage) which used to involve a lot of bucking and vibration; that is now quite smooth. I don't think I gained much more hp though, but I can't tell with that stump puller. Anyways, that's my :2cents: about long tubes.


Packman

[jayh]

longtubes make the biggest difference from 2500-4000, feels like you added 30cubes vs. shorties of the same primary size

[hemihotrod402]

bbk used to make headers that look identical to that

you mean these?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BBK-15160/?rtype=10

EDIT: and thanks for the info guys

[1987cp]

longtubes make the biggest difference from 2500-4000, feels like you added 30cubes vs. shorties of the same primary size

The funny thing is, that'd really make a difference on a street vehicle, which may never see over 4000rpm except on a freeway on-ramp, plus I don't know of any GMNers with auto WOT shifts over 5000.

As far as cost, it does kind of look like the cheapest route may be to buy the Summit 1-5/8" longtubes some of us keep eyeing, and modify them as necessary to fit your particular car (recall Mr Land Yacht's failure with a set of the same that'd supposedly been modded to fit someone else's car). Seems a LOT less scary to cut up a $100 set of headers than a $300-$800 set.

[jayh]

you mean these?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BBK-15160/?rtype=10

EDIT: and thanks for the info guys
no from what I can tell they havent made the ones Im referring to for a while now, like 6-7years. I almost bought a set in 99
the only reson why those probably wont fit is because the AOD, they will be close near the bellhousing, but down near the shifter they will almost definately hit the tranny. they will however almost definately clear a c4

I still think there is a mid 60's 4spd header that will fit, just noone has found it yet

the summit headers, if you reengineer the #8 primary, will probably fit

[1980c10]

I really wanna do this. I just don't have time right now. Plus I dunno if I can sacrifice my shorties that are good for a junkyard twin setup. But I would love to have a set of long tubes. Then I would have them for every panther I ever own lol.

[1987cp]

the summit headers, if you reengineer the #8 primary, will probably fit

This is what Mr Land Yacht said his pal in Indiana had done. Oddly, when I tried a pair of the above in my 5.0 wagon back in '04, it was the passenger side that I absolutely could not get in place for the life of me. I never got around to trying the driver's side. I did suspect it might have slid in place with a mini-starter, but at the time I thought it more efficient to order shorties instead (and I couldn't have modded any tubes at that time even if I wanted to, because I didn't have a welder and didn't know anyone who did weld stuff like that since the local exhaust shops refused to touch anything that could be called "headers").

[jayh]

This is what Mr Land Yacht said his pal in Indiana had done. Oddly, when I tried a pair of the above in my 5.0 wagon back in '04, it was the passenger side that I absolutely could not get in place for the life of me. I never got around to trying the driver's side. I did suspect it might have slid in place with a mini-starter, but at the time I thought it more efficient to order shorties instead (and I couldn't have modded any tubes at that time even if I wanted to, because I didn't have a welder and didn't know anyone who did weld stuff like that since the local exhaust shops refused to touch anything that could be called "headers").

if you really look at the passenger side header, it has three slits that go half way through the flange, you'll also notice that there is a slip tube on #2, #3, and #4.
you cut the flange all the way through those 3 slits, the collector will stay attached to #1. install #1, then install #4, then #3, then #2
those usually dont come with instructions, but they are flowtechs and the flowtechs usually do; anyway,the directions explain how to do it. once you figure it out, they go right in. I dont think you can install the header as 1 piece, it would be a nightmare even if you could.
Ive owned a few sets of those and installed them on a few different friends and customers cars as well
the driver side only has one slit between 7 and 8 and one slip tube on 8. that will probably make modifying #8 that much easier

[1987cp]

Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall noticing what I thought looked like a slip-fit on one of the collectors, but at the time I had no idea that it could be used to my advantage and wouldn't have had the guidance to know how to do it anyway. Interesting .........

Still, sounds like a pain to have to install something in 3 or 4 pieces. Do you put some sort of clamp on the tubes once it's all installed and reassembled?

[jayh]

no they just slip together, and no they dont usually leak in my experience

it might sound like a pain, or even seem like it, but after you fight with a one piece header for a few hours, lifting the motor as far as possible, and still scratching the shit out of everything and forcing it, you'll realize those headers that go in in 20minutes that you dont have to lift the motor or drop the starter or any of that are a nice luxury

[1987cp]

no they just slip together, and no they dont usually leak in my experience

it might sound like a pain, or even seem like it, but after you fight with a one piece header for a few hours, lifting the motor as far as possible, and still scratching the shit out of everything and forcing it, you'll realize those headers that go in in 20minutes that you dont have to lift the motor or drop the starter or any of that are a nice luxury

Now you're making me want to get another set and try again .... :3gears: