Buddy Needs YOUR Help Making an '86 Tudor Marauder!

[sxcpotatoes]

One of my Tweeps (who is also a member of this forum, due to jump in this thread shortly, has a project he could use our help on.

He has a wrecked Marauder (dunno what year). Plus I'm assuming he just bought THIS '86 Tudor MGM

He wants to do a full body-off frame swap from the old car to the newer Marauder so he can keep the nice upgraded handly bits.

So I put this in BOX Performance because this is where it will get the most attention.

Has anyone ever done anything like this? Are there any guides that show all the body part removal instructions?

I know you crazy kids have swapped Engines (5.0 into Aero, 4.6 into Box before). Are there any problems he might run into trying to do the old style body to new frame swap? Any issues you see cropping up with body panel fitment or drivetrain clearance issues?

Please help a mang out.

Dude's name is Sajeev Mehta and he writes for TTAC (among other things).

[pro-five-oh]

Thanks dude. Hey all, some of you already know me. Well, at least that one guy who moderates on Lincolnsonline with me.

Yes, my brother and I bought that '86 coupe on eBay. Will pick it up in a week or less. Saw a wrecked Marauder on eBay that we might buy, but not until everything's clear on what is needed to do the swap. A shop called Classic Cars of Houston has the skills to cut and weld to make this happen. The owner @CCH drives an 89 LS that used to belong to his grandmother, so he's down for it.

What we want:

-Stock Box exterior and interior, including the gauges. Everything!!!
-Marauder Subframes/powertrain/ECM/ABS/brakes/suspension/Axle/tranny

What we're thinking:

-Cut marauder frame at subframes, and cut/weld to '86 frame. Install powertrain and suspension as one unit.
-Turn off certain things in Marauder computer: airbags, vapor canisters, etc. Will ping Torrie at Fastparts for more info there. If all else fails, custom aftermarket wiring harnesses aren't that expensive.
-modify firewall as needed to fit marauder brake booster?
- run new oil/temp switches in lieu of sending units to feed info to the '86's idiot lights
- sell marauder stuff (gauges, wheels, whatever) to other panther people to pay for misc parts needed to put it all together.

What are we missing? Thank you in advance.

[Pirate]

Thanks dude. Hey all, some of you already know me. Well, at least that one guy who moderates on Lincolnsonline with me.

Yes, my brother and I bought that '86 coupe on eBay. Will pick it up in a week or less. Saw a wrecked Marauder on eBay that we might buy, but not until everything's clear on what is needed to do the swap. A shop called Classic Cars of Houston has the skills to cut and weld to make this happen. The owner @CCH drives an 89 LS that used to belong to his grandmother, so he's down for it.

What we want:

-Stock Box exterior and interior, including the gauges. Everything!!!
-Marauder Subframes/powertrain/ECM/ABS/brakes/suspension/Axle/tranny

What we're thinking:

-Cut marauder frame at subframes, and cut/weld to '86 frame. Install powertrain and suspension as one unit.
-Turn off certain things in Marauder computer: airbags, vapor canisters, etc. Will ping Torrie at Fastparts for more info there. If all else fails, custom aftermarket wiring harnesses aren't that expensive.
-modify firewall as needed to fit marauder brake booster?
- run new oil/temp switches in lieu of sending units to feed info to the '86's idiot lights
- sell marauder stuff (gauges, wheels, whatever) to other panther people to pay for misc parts needed to put it all together.

What are we missing? Thank you in advance.

1. I don't think the stock 15" Turdbine wheels will fit the front Marauder brakes, if that was your plan.

2. I have an alternative idea concerning the frame swap: Having test-driven a blue Marauder some years ago....I'm not convinced that this swap to an underpowered chassis is such a great idea. My suggestion? Use most of the stock chassis, but add in a T-bird Super Coupe IRS assembly (convert to a Mustang wheel bolt pattern), and go with a 2011 Mustang GT motor/auto tranny/ECM-PCM drivetrain. You can upgrade the front end with 1998-2002 Crown Vic suspension components, and make it drive just about as good (if not better) as the Marauder up front, and with the T-bird rear IRS, it will drive a hell of a lot better than the straight-rear-axle Marauder. Add something timeless for wheels such as these below, but in black instead of green, and in 16x8 size, with 255/55R16 tires:


There are some black wheels on their homepage:
http://www.daytonwirewheels.com/index.htm

[pro-five-oh]

1. I don't think the stock 15" Turdbine wheels will fit the front Marauder brakes, if that was your plan.

2. I have an alternative idea concerning the frame swap: Having test-driven a blue Marauder some years ago....I'm not convinced that this swap to an underpowered chassis is such a great idea. My suggestion? Use most of the stock chassis, but add in a T-bird Super Coupe IRS assembly (convert to a Mustang wheel bolt pattern), and go with a 2011 Mustang GT motor/auto tranny/ECM-PCM drivetrain. You can upgrade the front end with 1998-2002 Crown Vic suspension components, and make it drive just about as good (if not better) as the Marauder up front, and with the T-bird rear IRS, it will drive a hell of a lot better than the straight-rear-axle Marauder. Add something timeless for wheels such as these below, but in black instead of green, and in 16x8 size, with 255/55R16 tires:

Stock wheels don't fit, but the Marauder wheels will look ghetto. Some 16" wheel will clear the calipers. We'll worry about that later.

Though I LOVE your alternative, its too much work and money. Having a donor car with everything already set up makes the conversion easier...more importantly cheaper on the labor end. And the stock Marauder set up is no slouch. We could take any 2003 Panther and make it work, but the Marauder's decent suspension and 32v motor are worth the upgrade.

My brother (the guy with the checkbook) can drive his other Merc if he wants to really make waves.

[Dereck]

Hi

This seems a whole lot of effort to me, cutting subframes, welding, computer jiggery pokery, finding wheels, blah, blah, blah, when a simple solution would be to drop the Tudor body straight onto a Marauder frame, I am not sure if the wheelbase would be a problem and you might have to reconfigure a couple body mounts but it sure seems a hell of a lot less work.

Regards

Dereck

[pro-five-oh]

Hi

This seems a whole lot of effort to me, cutting subframes, welding, computer jiggery pokery, finding wheels, blah, blah, blah, when a simple solution would be to drop the Tudor body straight onto a Marauder frame, I am not sure if the wheelbase would be a problem and you might have to reconfigure a couple body mounts but it sure seems a hell of a lot less work.

Regards

Dereck

I cannot believe that you're a Pondside Pain In my Posterior on this forum too, Dereck!

That said, that might work. But the Marauder is a little wider and the firewall had serious changes in 1992 with the body change. If the mounts for the front, middle and back don't play nice, the cut/weld thing will happen.

[Dereck]

Hi Pro-Five-Oh

I cannot believe that you're a Pondside Pain In my Posterior on this forum too, Dereck!
.

You can run but you cannot hide.

Regards

Dereck

[Pirate]

Stock wheels don't fit, but the Marauder wheels will look ghetto. Some 16" wheel will clear the calipers. We'll worry about that later.

Though I LOVE your alternative, its too much work and money. Having a donor car with everything already set up makes the conversion easier...more importantly cheaper on the labor end. And the stock Marauder set up is no slouch. We could take any 2003 Panther and make it work, but the Marauder's decent suspension and 32v motor are worth the upgrade.

My brother (the guy with the checkbook) can drive his other Merc if he wants to really make waves.

Okay, not to be raining on your parade, but since you publicly posted this, please elaborate on how adding a basic T-bird IRS rear clip (four mounts), and dropping in a new Mustang 5.0 motor and transmission (simply fabbing motor mounts, and adapting an old-style power-steering pump) to the existing '86 frame going to be more work (and cheaper from a labor perspective) than completely reworking the Marauder frame to make it fit in the '86, reworking the firewall for the Marauder hydroboost system, and making that engine clear the firewall/cowl/wiper motor overhang in the rear, in addition to probably having to redo a lot of body mounting points in the process?

Concerning a 'stock Marauder, properly set up, is no slouch'....by the time you add a Kenne Bell blower to get low-end grunt up and moving, and other upgrades required to assist the blower...., not to mention having to run a methanol/water injection system, tuning upgrades/costs....you're right about where a stock, non-supercharged 2011 5.0 motor is, and I'm willing to bet you'll do the 5.0 install for considerably less money than what the Marauder motor will cost to get it up and over 400 hp at the crank.

Otherwise, the stock Marauder falls victim (or at least stays even) to pretty much any V6 Honda accord.

If it's just a 'Mercury' thing....well, I'd just swap the Marauder drivetrain over to the '86 frame, and mod the front suspension. If you're concerned about what the '86 frame supposedly can't do....there are a couple of guys here who might change your mind as to what they can and can't do.

I'm just not convinced that your suggestion that the Marauder chassis idea is going to be cheaper than doing it my way, unless you already own the Marauder...and even then, by the time the chassis is converted to the '86 body....the question here is 'why?', especially if mere same-year Police interceptors give the Marauder a run for its money....?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Marauder, I just feel that Ford really dropped the ball on this car, with the 2003-2004 Marauder going down in history as a tragic example of what could have been....

[pro-five-oh]

Okay, not to be raining on your parade, but since you publicly posted this, please elaborate on how adding a basic T-bird IRS rear clip (four mounts),

I'll bite. Unless the things you mentioned come with a full set of instructions here on the forum, I am not gonna be making it happen. A shop with high labor rates shall. I have a guy who cuts frames and builds Restomod Mustangs for a living, switching subframes isn't a big deal. What is a big deal?

Making more work by introducing a whole new IRS system. I have a Mark VIII already, its not like I can cut and weld its IRS into a Panther without a lot of fabrication. The labor alone for him to measure, construct and weld the IRS mounts will be staggering, and I won't be doing this.

and dropping in a new Mustang 5.0 motor and transmission (simply fabbing motor mounts, and adapting an old-style power-steering pump) to the existing '86 frame going to be more work (and cheaper from a labor perspective)

Please tell me you know how much a new 5.0 goes for. Believe it or not, my guy will do the frame mods for the same price as that crate motor and a tranny. Not only does the Marauder have the perfect donor frame, it comes with a free powertrain that already fits! Unless it's already done and published here for us to leverage, the cost of your power steering adaption alone will be similar to a cut/weld job for one subframe by my shop. (ok, that's a slight exaggeration)

And I'll still have that primitive steering box, which is one of the pieces of Panther history that I want gone.


Otherwise, the stock Marauder falls victim (or at least stays even) to pretty much any V6 Honda accord.

We got plenty of fast cars. Nobody gives a crap if the '86 can't break into the mid 14s in the quarter mile. Having the chassis improvements of the 2003+ is way more important. If we do care at some point, a 2003 Cobra swap has the potential to destroy the new 5.0s.

If it's just a 'Mercury' thing....well, I'd just swap the Marauder drivetrain over to the '86 frame, and mod the front suspension. If you're concerned about what the '86 frame supposedly can't do....there are a couple of guys here who might change your mind as to what they can and can't do.

Links/names/websites, please...because I'd rather have the 2003's better chassis than shocks/spring/swaybars on a box. But I'm here to learn more.


especially if mere same-year Police interceptors give the Marauder a run for its money....?

A CVPI swap isn't out of the question at all. If a good one shows up locally...ya never know.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Marauder, I just feel that Ford really dropped the ball on this car, with the 2003-2004 Marauder going down in history as a tragic example of what could have been...

Trust me, I think the Marauder sucked...I can't believe Ford actually thought they could sell it for $34,000 when new. No torque, slippery seats, dated interior, etc. Now that they are depreciated, I like their bits and pieces a lot more.

[mrltd]

The firewall and heaterbox will be an issue with swapping the mod motor/complete chassis under the box body. But since there is a donor...just cut and paste.

The full chassis swap would be nice, but it's really not much of an upgrade.


the marauder wheels look fine on a box.


making IRS mounts aren't tough. some steel plate with some holes. Measuing and installing are pretty easy, put wheels on measure it and weld. I've discussed the IRS with Pirate before. It might hold up better to the abuse I shell out better than the standard 8.8 axle.

[pro-five-oh]

The full chassis swap would be nice, but it's really not much of an upgrade.

See that's the thing, I love the feel of my Dad's 2006 Town Car. I think it is a big deal. We'll put some miles on the box (as-is) before anyone puts a torch on it, but the chassis swap really appeals to me.

[mrltd]

Then just do the front clip. It's not going to be the same with a box body on it. The sound deadening of the new cars and the body rigidity is much better on the new cars. Pretty sure the box is signifigantly lighter, so spring rates and shocks will have to be changed to get it riding nice. And the fit and finish on the old cars....ugh...it's still going to be a box.


I'd sure do it if I had the stuff. Just a lot to think about.

[Dereck]

Hi

If it's independant rear suspension you want why not just bolt a Jaguar rear subframe in and be done with it

Regards

Dereck

[Pirate]

I'll bite. Because when you have a guy who cuts frames and builds Restomod Mustangs for a living, switching subframes isn't a big deal. What is a big deal? Making more work by introducing a whole new IRS system. I have a Mark VIII already, its not like I can cut and weld its IRS into a Panther without a lot of fabrication. The labor alone for him to measure, construct and weld the IRS mounts will be staggering, and I won't be doing this.

and dropping in a new Mustang 5.0 motor and transmission (simply fabbing motor mounts, and adapting an old-style power-steering pump) to the existing '86 frame going to be more work (and cheaper from a labor perspective)

Please tell me you know how much a new 5.0 goes for. Believe it or not, my guy will do the frame mods for the same price as that crate motor. Not only does the Marauder have the perfect donor frame, it comes with a free motor that already fits! Labor rates at a shop like this aren't cheap...

...unless it's already done and published here for us to leverage, the cost of your power steering adaption alone will be similar to a cut/weld job for one subframe by my shop.


Otherwise, the stock Marauder falls victim (or at least stays even) to pretty much any V6 Honda accord.

We got plenty of fast cars. Nobody gives a crap if the '86 can't break into the mid 14s in the quarter mile. Having the chassis improvements of the 2003+ is way more important. If we do care at some point, a 2003 Cobra swap has the potential to destroy the new 5.0s.

If it's just a 'Mercury' thing....well, I'd just swap the Marauder drivetrain over to the '86 frame, and mod the front suspension. If you're concerned about what the '86 frame supposedly can't do....there are a couple of guys here who might change your mind as to what they can and can't do.

Links/names/websites, please...because I'd rather have the 2003's better chassis than shocks/spring/swaybars on a box. But I'm here to learn more.


especially if mere same-year Police interceptors give the Marauder a run for its money....?

A CVPI swap isn't out of the question at all. If a good one shows up locally...ya never know.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Marauder, I just feel that Ford really dropped the ball on this car, with the 2003-2004 Marauder going down in history as a tragic example of what could have been...

Trust me, I think the Marauder sucked...I can't believe they actually thought they could sell it for $34,000 when new. No torque, slippery seats, dated interior, etc. Now that they are depreciated, I like their bits and pieces a lot more.

EDIT: I didn't see that there had been additional posts from Mikey here...

1. Have you actually bothered to look under the Lincoln lately? I have a T-bird in my garage, sitting in the air, and there are more than a few examples of where these IRS units have been installed into all kinds of cars, most notably a 1967 F100, and a Bronco/Lightning hybrid....(I have links to these in Man Cave 'Bizarre Projects' thread) I don't recall them moaning about the time/labor it took to install the Lincoln IRS; 4 mounts, two upper shock mounts, and two spring pockets. Knowing what I do of the Box frames....this really isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. Reminder: This is your car.

2. The Marauder has a perfect donor frame?

Quoting you:

"Trust me, I think the Marauder sucked...I can't believe they actually thought they could sell it for $34,000 when new. No torque, slippery seats, dated interior, etc. Now that they are depreciated, I like their bits and pieces a lot more."

More on this in a moment.

3. "Links/names/websites, please...because I'd rather have the 2003's better chassis than shocks/spring/swaybars on a box. But I'm here to learn more. "

The 2003-up Mercury/CV has an aluminum front crossmember and rack and pinion steering. The 1998-2002 CV had similar control arms and brakes, and a quick-ratio steering box....all of which swaps over to the '86 chassis. With the Crown Vic and Marauder, you got a watts link (an expensive form of a panhard rod) in the rear. Yay, live-axle skipping around corners. Drive a Marauder, then get back into your Lincoln, and then do it again, several times. If you don't notice a difference between the two cars, then ignore this.

Concerning a couple of modified Box cars....check out MrLTD and Blaze86 in here.

4. "Please tell me you know how much a new 5.0 goes for. Believe it or not, my guy will do the frame mods for the same price as that crate motor. Not only does the Marauder have the perfect donor frame, it comes with a free motor that already fits! Labor rates at a shop like this aren't cheap...

...unless it's already done and published here for us to leverage, the cost of your power steering adaption alone will be similar to a cut/weld job for one subframe by my shop"

I'm well aware of what the 5.0 crate motor goes for. I didn't say that you had to buy a new one. Are you suggesting that there will never be any wrecked GT's to pull engines from? The ECM setup is $1100, yes, but once it's installed, you're done with the car, and don't have a torqueless Marauder motor pulling the car around.

And now, back to these statements:

"Trust me, I think the Marauder sucked...I can't believe they actually thought they could sell it for $34,000 when new. No torque, slippery seats, dated interior, etc. Now that they are depreciated, I like their bits and pieces a lot more."

And you're wanting to build a Restomod out of this car?

"We got plenty of fast cars. Nobody gives a crap if the '86 can't break into the mid 14s in the quarter mile. Having the chassis improvements of the 2003+ is way more important. If we do care at some point, a 2003 Cobra swap has the potential to destroy the new 5.0s."

Potential.

Key word here.

Concerning chassis improvements of the 2003-up chassis, when you look 'big-picture' here....there aren't any chassis improvements to speak of. That's what I'm trying to tell you. That's the grief I'm trying to save you from. When you do a restomod Mustang with an old, 1960's Mustang chassis, THAT is an improvement.

Going from old, antiquated 1970's chassis technology, and moving to old, antiquated 1980's chassis technology is a waste of time.

What the end result will be, by installing a '86 body over a 2003-2004 chassis, is that you will get a car that won't ride or drive much better than a slightly-modified 1986 chassis. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the existing low-output engine in that '86, slightly-warmed-over, will have more ooomph down low than the 2003 Marauder will, although eventually, the Marauder will eventually catch the '86 and pass it.

And the word 'cost' pops up again.

You mention that the 4.6 Terminator motor has the 'potential' to beat the 5.0 motor....but you forget that the Terminator motor, and the extra goodies required to run the blower....they add weight....while the 5.0 pulls ahead, gets better gas mileage, and already has an automatic tranny option (and you don't have to build up this tranny to hold up behind the 5.0), whereas the Terminator...doesn't.

Once again, it's your car. I'm really not against this project, because you're attempting to do something with a car that for all accounts should be dead and buried, and to be honest with you, I'm insanely jealous that you nailed such a nice two-door...and are able to do something with it now, especially with the economy taking a shit.

The concern here was that you might be simply exchanging one outdated chassis and powerplant for a chassis and powerplant that's also outdated....and justifying this decision via' the term 'cost'. You're used to building Restomod Mustangs, and are thinking in 'How can I make a profit out of building these cars'....with the results being phenomenal changes in the way the old cars drove. The problem with this car, is that the Panther/Box chassis didn't have periodical chassis upgrades like the Mustang did, so upgrading to a newer frame really isn't as much of an 'upgrade' as you're led to believe; most of the 'upgrades' are merely crutches in order to get another decade or two out of a chassis whose ties go back to the early 1960's.

I hated the Marauder when I drove it, while it could be a great car with a shitload of modifications, haven't we all been around long enough to get a big car that actually got out of its own way, without having to modify the hell out of it?

Hey, do not be put off by me, pissed off, or annoyed, this is merely a technical discussion, followed by the 'opinion' piece, lol. You have the right idea in mind, I just think you should go about it in a different way, and leave the tight-ass 'shop manager' nametag at home with this car, because I think you're going to be disappointed with how this car turns out, if you go with the Marauder chassis swap.

Yes, it's initially cheaper. Yes, the build plan you have is right up your alley. I just think you're missing out on a golden opportunity here to build something truly phenomenal, and I think that with a bit of shopping, you might cut about even, once you also factor in how good the new 5.0 is.

I want to keep track of what you do with this car, and don't let my 'assholiness' drive you away, I've kind of been wanting to build one of these cars....again....and you've given me one hell of an idea for a project car....especially when I thought that I had no desire to build one ever again.

Thank you for registering, and giving me an idea. Hope to see more of this car and the work you're doing with it, and I promise that I won't bitch or complain about it ever again, lol.

[DoctorV8]

Hi guys, I'm Sajeev's brother, and the new owner of the 86 coupe in question.

2. The Marauder has a perfect donor frame?

Quoting you:

"Trust me, I think the Marauder sucked...I can't believe they actually thought they could sell it for $34,000 when new. No torque, slippery seats, dated interior, etc. Now that they are depreciated, I like their bits and pieces a lot more."

....And you're wanting to build a Restomod out of this car?

To clarify, he thinks the new 2003 Marauder for $34,000 was a bad deal. For that money, it should have had a blower, better seats, and maybe a 6 speed. Doubt anyone here would argue with that.

What we want to do is have the driveability of the full factory engineered marauder, complete with mod motor, rack and pinion, 4R70w, and ABS under the box coupe body.

I want to make it as painless as possible, and to that end, if the entire frame swap is not as cost effective as just replacing front end components, we are entertaining all possibilities.

However, having the ENTIRE Marauder chassis, with its improved rigidity (however little that may be) and INTACT wiring harness would be my ultimate goal...unless anyone can prove to me that there's a better way.

I've driven basically everything on the market over the last 20 years, including every Panther iteration existant, and there is no doubt in my mind that a stock Marauder rides/drives/accelerates far better than a box. That's all I'm looking for at this point. Maybe a blower swap down the road.....

....but I've sunk tons of money into projects over the years that have snowballed into expensive (but cool) money pits......Ford GT twin turbo, Lingenfelter stroker C4 ZR1, 1991 LX 5.0 twin turbo/T56/Griggs, 1970 Mercury Cyclone Roush 427, and supercharged E39 BMW M5, to name a few....This time around, I want simplicity, without compromising the stated goal.

there aren't any chassis improvements to speak of. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

So you are saying a box with upgraded/rebuilt suspension bits will drive as nicely as a Marauder? I don't buy it.

I want to keep track of what you do with this car, and don't let my 'assholiness' drive you away,

Deal.