BBF 460 in a Box?

[Scotty]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone has any info about a possible BBF swap into a box chassis? I've looked here at over at 460ford.com, as well as a variety of places, and I saw some talk hear and there, but nothing substantial (mostly talk about motor mounts being changed, and thought about how the 460 will fit into a panther.)

Has it been done before? If so, is there any information available? I know many things like exhaust, fuel system, trans, ect will have to be modified, but are there any obvious barriers to this swap I'm not seeing?


Sorry if this is such an easy question, I'm not really a Ford guy (actually, I prefer AMC's) but lack of funds, and an emotional attachment to this car pushed it to 'project car' status.

Plus, it needs a new motor, anyway. :evil:

[johnunit]

There was a guy on here who had one running and working, but he doesn't post here any more. Some people will know more, but rest assured it can be and has been done.


That said, conventional wisdom is that you can get a 351W (bolt in) or stroker version of it to perform better than a 460. Lighter, easier to find parts for, less crammed in, etc. I understand wanting to do it for the novelty factor though, or because you have picked up a 460 exceptionally cheap.

[Scotty]

Hmm, I thought of a 351, though if I did I'd probably try for a Cleavland.

Will the windsor give me enough Torque? Basically all I want is a mid 13'second grocery-getter, and I figured the 460 would have enough torque (with bolt-on's and an agressive cam) to get me there. Am I over-estimating the 460's ability?

I know it's a heavy car, especially being a wagon n all (though, it is surprising light for being what it is, the title says its kerb weight is ~20 lbs less than 4000) n it will be hard to do, but I want enough power to beat alot of the cars on the road; basically a sleeper.

[johnunit]

mid 13s are easy.

a windsor 351 is simpler than a cleveland because 351Ws came in box crown vics, so the only fitment issue is slightly tighter hood clearance compared to a 302.



Using Engine Analyzer Pro and Desktop Drag 2003, two fairly detailed simulators, I'll try and give you an idea of what it takes to get mid 13 seconds on a stock-body crown vic:

approx combo:
BBK1511 351W swap headers (300bucks)
2.5inch exhaust WITH cats
streetable mufflers (flowmaster 40 series, to be specific, but this isn't crucial)
900CFM carb
AFR205 heads (there may be better for the money, bit it's the general size range you'd want. TFS 185 or 205s have a good reputation too)
STOCK cam (obviously a custom cam could gain you some power over this)
Performance dual-plane intake (maybe Performer RPM)
stock internals and accessories, I even input that this engine has slightly worn cylinders/rings)
2500 RPM converter
custom valve body
4.10 gears

the simulators spit out these numbers:
360HP@ 5800RPM
370Ft. lb@ 4550RPM
300+ TQ from 2000-6000RPM

13.5 in the 1/4 with slicks

These are just ballpark figures, but with a more optimized combo (the engine parts were just guesstimates and I only ran one simulation, no tweeking) you'd have a car that ran consistent low 13s all day long. And it'd be FAR less front heavy than a 460.

[rick99601]

mid 13s are easy.

a windsor 351 is simpler than a cleveland because 351Ws came in box crown vics, so the only fitment issue is slightly tighter hood clearance compared to a 302.



Using Engine Analyzer Pro and Desktop Drag 2003, two fairly detailed simulators, I'll try and give you an idea of what it takes to get mid 13 seconds on a stock-body crown vic:

approx combo:
BBK1511 351W swap headers (300bucks)
2.5inch exhaust WITH cats
streetable mufflers (flowmaster 40 series, to be specific, but this isn't crucial)
900CFM carb
AFR205 heads (there may be better for the money, bit it's the general size range you'd want. TFS 185 or 205s have a good reputation too)
STOCK cam (obviously a custom cam could gain you some power over this)
Performance dual-plane intake (maybe Performer RPM)
stock internals and accessories, I even input that this engine has slightly worn cylinders/rings)
2500 RPM converter
custom valve body
4.10 gears

the simulators spit out these numbers:
360HP@ 5800RPM
370Ft. lb@ 4550RPM
300+ TQ from 2000-6000RPM

13.5 in the 1/4 with slicks

These are just ballpark figures, but with a more optimized combo (the engine parts were just guesstimates and I only ran one simulation, no tweeking) you'd have a car that ran consistent low 13s all day long. And it'd be FAR less front heavy than a 460.

you do all that without touching the driveline and youre gonna break somethin, quick.

not to mention youll need to be able to slow down at the end of the track/on the street.

[johnunit]

Just because I can't sleep and I sort of enjoy tinkering with these simulators:


same basic engine but with a fresh 418CI stroker bottom end, electric fan, underdrive pullies, and Trick Flow TW205 heads came up with these numbers:
397 HP at 5000RPM
448 lb. ft. at 4000RPM
400 lb. ft. of tq. from 1500 to past 5000RPM

with about 100lbs in weight reduction (beyond the 100+lbs you save with aluminum heads and headers instead of cast iron junk), and a 3000RPM stall speed the Desktop Drag indicates low 12 second 1/4 times with that engine. On street tires that goes up to 12.8ish.

now with a 460:
These numbers are more approximate because I don't know much at all about performance 460s, take it for what it's worth.
easily 250lbs of extra weight, counting transmission.
cowl hood (must be custom made)
decent headers (must be custom made)
2500 stall coverter
C6 transmission (would this fit the transmission tunnel? I don't know but someone here should)
same 4.10 gears and slicks
900CFM carb
E7 heads (from late model trucks)
good dual-plane manifold
3-inch exhaust (will have to be custom made)
again factoring in extra cylinder leakage because I'm assuming a junkyard find here, stock accessories too
very mild performance cam

304 HP at 4000RPM
458 lb ft. at 3000RPM
400+lb ft from idle to 400RPM
It's all done by 5000RPM though

drag strip time with 2500RPM converter and the C6 and slicks:
13.6 in the 1/4

with professionally ported E7s running larger valves, a nice-flowing single-plane intake, underdrive pullies, and a freshly rebuilt shortblock, the numbers were:
403HP at 5000RPM
489lb ft. at 3300 to 3800RPM (completely flat torque curve there)
400+ lb ft. from idle to a little over 5000RPM
engine is still making good power up to almost 6000RPM, though I don't know whether a 460 would survive those RPMs very long

1/4 mile with the rest of the car set up the same as the previous 460 run other than adjusted shift points is about 12.5 second, but even what's listed as "mild race" 10-inch wide tires are on the edge of grip at that point.



So obviously with a mildly built 460 you could pretty comfortably pass your low-13s expectation, but you'd be making some pretty substantial concessions in terms of street driving. No overdrive, cowl hood, much more front heavy, possibly losing HVAC to fit headers in (or sacrificing ground clearance), drop in fuel economy, and a lot of having to figure out how to make stuff work.

However, for about the same money if you factor in having to buy or fabricate custom parts, you could have a 351W based engine getting similar performance while getting better fuel economy, having available replacement parts everywhere, keeping the stock hood, AC, etc. and having a better handling car.
My laymen's opinion is that it comes down to how serious a racecar you want. If it's being built mostly for the track, a 460 would be badass, but if this is something you'll be wanting the wife to drive occasionally or might take long trips in, or you don't have reasonable fabrication skills, I'd recommend the Windsor route.

Also, in my laymen's opinion, a Cleveland's exotic parts pricing is not justified by the minimal performance advantage over a 351W. The big advantage is the heads, and stock heads aren't even worth thinking about if you're trying to run naturally aspirated 13s in a 4000lb car with 351 cubes. They've got a little more cache at a car show, but that's about it.

[johnunit]

you do all that without touching the driveline and youre gonna break somethin, quick.

not to mention youll need to be able to slow down at the end of the track/on the street.

very true. I wasn't factoring in durability. A stock AOD and possibly a stock 8.8 rear end would not last long behind a built windsor. With either a big block or a small block, if you're running 13s you'll want upgraded brakes (generally people go with early-mid 90s crown vic brakes as a simple upgrade, but you may want more), custom built trans, beefed up rear end, etc. etc.

[Scotty]

very true. I wasn't factoring in durability. A stock AOD and possibly a stock 8.8 rear end would not last long behind a built windsor. With either a big block or a small block, if you're running 13s you'll want upgraded brakes (generally people go with early-mid 90s crown vic brakes as a simple upgrade, but you may want more), custom built trans, beefed up rear end, etc. etc.

I didn't think the 460 would make me compromise that much, though I admit I was pretty brash in my research. Also, I didn't think a 351W would push a box faster than 14 seconds without internal work, as I haven't seen many time slips, or posts, that say otherwise (though those are probably not with 4:10's and with a 302, am I correct?)

Hmm, I have some research to do.

[johnunit]

I didn't think the 460 would make me compromise that much, though I admit I was pretty brash in my research. Also, I didn't think a 351W would push a box faster than 14 seconds without internal work, as I haven't seen many time slips, or posts, that say otherwise (though those are probably not with 4:10's and with a 302, am I correct?)

Hmm, I have some research to do.

if the time slips you're referring to are on this site, then frankly only a few people (myself far from included) have really pushed the limits of this chassis. I forget his exact times but DuceAnAhalf was into the 13s with a somewhat lightened car and a windsor. I wish I could remember what the 460 car ran.
A guy on another site has an 89 crown vic that he daily-drives and supposedly gets reasonable mileage with. It's a 393 stroker, has a WR-aod (an AOD with 4R70W gearing) and ran a best time of 13.2 @ 104mph

Really, the sky is the limit for the windsor engines, it's just a matter of how much money you have to blow. Streetable windsors running 600+HP are out there, and if you get into forced induction or nitrous you can go far beyond that.

[Scotty]

Weeellll, I could always stick these on it...

http://syracuse.craigslist.org/pts/2193219993.html

But yeah, thanks for the advice. I'll definitely ponder over every thing mentioned in this thread.

[rick99601]

got boost?

[sly]

twin turbo 351 (with appropriate drive line, suspension, and brakes) FTW!

[DuceAnAHalf]

351W
early GT-40 heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap intake
600dp holley carb
crappy cam
125 shot nitrous
mid length headers
2.5" exhaust with flowmasters
C4 with full manual valve body
3.55 rear
drag radials
High 12s

[P72Ford]

More gear for a wagon. 4.10s, or 4.30s, in my opinion.

There is a member here that has a 13 second (I believe he was in the 13s the last time he checked in) with a 302 Colony Park wagon.

A thoughtful build and crackerjack tune with get you there.

[mrltd]

I wish I had my old 429. That thing would turn 5500-6k rpm easy and was rated 340/460. I could blow the tires off the pickup at 55mph. Bone stock 2bbl 429. Was quite the sleeper- and would have been great in a panther. But no AC.

A near stock explorer motor and good drivetrain should be able to run low 14's high 13's in a sedan