update on 5 speed/306 swap! pics of trans!

[Nick52284]

ok so its been a long time since i posted here, i'm still working on my merc that i got a few years ago, money was tight, life sucked for a while but i havent given up on this, i can't find my old post about the maroon grand marquis i got but its an 86 merc, 42,XXX miles, underneath is clean, since its been sitting the body developed 3 dime size spots of rust, nothing major.

i finally got my engine down to the machine shop, getting bored to a 306, new freeze plugs, bearings, etc.. basically getting it ready to build,

i got the trans setup today, everything is from the same mustang, just about everything i need to put the 5 speed in, minus a few things like brake master cylinder and driveshaft parts but here's the pics:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171000.jpg

already has a PRO 5.0 shifter installed, this thing is tight, feels really good

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171013.jpg

the pedal assembly has an upgraded quadrant on it

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171033.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171238.jpg

new clutch kit included with the trans

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171455.jpg

new flywheel included as well

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-02-22171411.jpg

also a new clutch cable was included, got everything for 500.00 total, not bad i'd say!

Nick

[Nick52284]

also i wanted to find out, will a stock pcm from a mustang work as plug and play in the grand marquis? since i'm swapping to a 5 speed i don't care about cruise, lol but i want the gauges to still work, as in speedo and odom. or do i need an ecm from a mk7 or thunderbird with a 5speed?

[1980c10]

Are you converting to mass air or staying speed density?

Btw I am jelous I would love to put a standard trans in mine.

[zoomie]

also i wanted to find out, will a stock pcm from a mustang work as plug and play in the grand marquis? since i'm swapping to a 5 speed i don't care about cruise, lol but i want the gauges to still work, as in speedo and odom. or do i need an ecm from a mk7 or thunderbird with a 5speed?

ecm will work just fine, but the deciding factor will be if your running maf or sd on your choice of ecm

[Nick52284]

i want to go with MAF, which one will i need to run that?

[1980c10]

a9l

[Lincolnmania]

very nice
u can use a mustang maf ecm .......86 has standalone cruise control

jack williams does shitty alignments!

[Nick52284]

thanks guys!

scott: i don't work there, they gave us a calendar because we buy a lot of tires from their warehouse.

i'll have to scout an ecm then, i called the machine shop today, he didn't even touch my block yet, my fault for saying take your time... i figured he would have done something with it in 2 weeks, its the same place we use for our head jobs and other machine work and he's usually really good and fast. oh well, just gives me time to build up some more fundage again, lol

Nick

[Nick52284]

how about this ecm?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310249780459

[johnunit]

nope. Where that says A6L on the label it shoulds say A9L

[Nick52284]

just got the call yesterday, my block is done! gonna pick it up this week, the guy hooked me up in a big way, for: hot tank cleaning, boring 30 over, new freeze plugs, new cam bearings and polishing the crank and cleaning the journals.... 200.00, i think i made out very well!

pics of the block when i pick it up!

Nick

[Nick52284]

i got the block back a while ago but i have been pretty darn busy between work and starting a business for myself, here are the pics of the block, it is being sent back to the machine shop to have the bottom end and rotating assembly installed, once that is complete i'll post more pics!

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-03-21095933.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-03-21095922.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-03-21095903.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/2011-03-21095842.jpg

[Crownvicman289]

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. . .

[gadget73]

cool. Get on with it already :)

[Nick52284]

time and $$ holding me back, my job doesn't pay very well hence me trying to start my own business with my uncle - www.BrixPc.com

[86VickyLX]

time and $$ holding me back
The killer of all projects...

[Crownvicman289]

2 lame excuses. He could sell a kidney to fund the project and put off starting the business until the swap is done. You need to get your priorities straight man. :D

[Nick52284]

lol, yea, i'm taking baby steps, lol. at least once i get the engine back i can get an oil pump and oil pan, not too expensive, then i can mount the block and start working on getting the trans mounted and functioning. the project will speed up a little more i hope... also i decided to go with a carb setup for ease of install and that awesome 4 barrel feel and sound!

[86VickyLX]

also i decided to go with a carb setup for ease of install and that awesome 4 barrel feel and sound!
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: How does a car with a 4 barrel sound? If it's running right, it should be running as smooth as it would be with fuel injection...

[Nick52284]

the sound of the secondaries opening up is unique to a mechanical 4 barrel setup from the video's i've seen and heard of 4 barrels anyway

[slymer]

vacuum secondaries FTW... spreadbore types for the needle butt primaries and toilet flusher secondaries. pretty good mileage when cruising but good power when you dump it.

[Crownvicman289]

I had 4bbl sound, then I upgraded to EFI power, economy, cleanliness, and refinement. My 4bbl was tuned good and ran smooth, but EFI is still better. Quit talking to hillbillies and circle track junkies about how to mod your car.

[Nick52284]

lol i also wanted to go that route to make it easier to install without messing with computers, if someone is willing to walk me through setting up a maf system or SD system with the swap i'll prolly go for it

[Crownvicman289]

Lucky for you there's only 1 computer, and an SD setup would be plug and play so I don't understand your concern here. If you go MAF, you need only add a couple wires to the harness which is far from the end of the world. Furthermore, if the carb is tuned like shit guess how it'll run? I'm absolutely positive you don't have a wideband to tune it with, so add $200 to the cost of the carb and intake and it's far from an economical option when there exist such good factory offerings that can be had on the cheap.

[pantera77]

lol i also wanted to go that route to make it easier to install without messing with computers, if someone is willing to walk me through setting up a maf system or SD system with the swap i'll prolly go for it

It's literally plug and play if you stay SD, if you go mass air, all you need to do is add a few wires, and move a few around, not hard at all.

[86VickyLX]

lol i also wanted to go that route to make it easier to install without messing with computers, if someone is willing to walk me through setting up a maf system or SD system with the swap i'll prolly go for it
Mark VII Speed Density computer wire the park/neutral wiring so it always indicates a complete circuit (for self test capabilities) and so you can start it. Plug and play.

Mustang 5 Speed (Speed Density) Wire in a clutch pedal switch, and wire that into the start circuit, that way it won't start without pressing the clutch pedal down.


Mustang Mass Air, move some wires (or eliminate them completely for smog stuff), and add a few wires for the mass air sensor. Same as Mustang speed density basically.

Speaking of clutch pedals...
You need to swap to the later style brake booster AND master cylinder. (88+)
Your 86 stuff will not work...

[Nick52284]

maybe i'll stick with SD then, when the time comes i'll make a decision, its gonna be a little while till i can afford the top end anyway. with winter coming and me not having a truck anymore i was on the hunt for a cheap winter beater. finally found one, its a 98 explorer eddie bauer edition, used to be a marine recruiter vehicle so its got a lot of mileage but it runs strong, doesn't smoke and it drives nice, needs some tlc but nothing major, for the price i couldn't refuse it, onto the pics

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/IMG_20111110_155213.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/IMG_20111110_155258.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/IMG_20111110_155224.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/IMG_20111110_155233.jpg

375.00 is the price i paid, not a bad score eh?

nick

[1987cp]

Actually, I've read about some guys claiming quite decent MPG with a Holley double pumper. Like, 25mpg on (IIRC) with a 750 DP on an otherwise-stock 5.0 HO.

[Crownvicman289]

That's about 250cfm too much for that motor. Edelbrock has a carb calculator, I guarantee they'd recommend a 500cfm. They did for my 289.

[1980c10]

Excuse me, but carb calculators are usless unless it's 1960.

[slymer]

I've seen those same MPG numbers with 600CFM carbs too. YMMV :D

[1987cp]

That's about 250cfm too much for that motor.

Says who? I'm learning to go by what people report actually experiencing in the real world with a well-thought-out overall combination, not a formula that applies more to the days of iron exhaust logs and stone-age cam grinds. The line of thought I've been reading about for the past year or two is to give your engine as much airflow capacity as you can (given your budget, race rules, government inspection goons, etc.), and then select or design a cam that makes your engine do what you need in the desired RPM range. If using a carb, you select one with good response characteristics, possibly a modern annular-booster design, and use a cam grind with a good intake vacuum signal.

Incidentally, my better 5.0L is quite noticably more responsive with my 600cfm base on the AFB instead of the 500cfm that the formulas prescribe. I also have better low-end response with a divided single plane intake than with a Performer 2121 dual plane. And that's using a cam designed for SEFI, which may or may not have a particularly good intake signal, working with a carb design first intruduced 54 years ago!


(BTW ... IIRC, the carb formulas I've seen seem to suggest that even a 400cfm carb is adequate for a 302ci engine.)

[1990LTD]

<<



>>





http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,8087.0.html

[1987cp]

That's in the Myths and Rumors forum, gotta be a member with at least 10 posts to view it. :tease:

But the short of it is simply that "too big" often isn't. And of course, there will always be those folks who are perfectly intelligent but still refuse to believe that viewpoint.

[86VickyLX]

Ew, is that a V6 explorer? I hope that's not the original engine, or if it is, it has the updated timing chain tensioners/guides.

[slymer]

That's in the Myths and Rumors forum, gotta be a member with at least 10 posts to view it. :tease:

But the short of it is simply that "too big" often isn't. And of course, there will always be those folks who are perfectly intelligent but still refuse to believe that viewpoint.

a well tuned carb that is twice as much as an engine needs or can even use will still work well since the air flow through it is limited by the engine's ability to move the air. now getting off idle flooding taken care of in a situation like that can be tricky... which is why you don't want to go too big.

[Nick52284]

yea its a sohc 4.0, this things starts strong and has a nice smooth idle, no weird noises, oil looked clean trans fluid is a little brown but it doesn't smell burnt, as long as it lasts me through winter i'll prolly sell it

[Pesty351]

Speaking of clutch pedals...
You need to swap to the later style brake booster AND master cylinder. (88+)
Your 86 stuff will not work...

His master cylinder will bolt up to the newer style brake booster and you need a 92+ booster.

[GoodSamaritan]

I had 4bbl sound, then I upgraded to EFI power, economy, cleanliness, and refinement. My 4bbl was tuned good and ran smooth, but EFI is still better. Quit talking to hillbillies and circle track junkies about how to mod your car.

There are three main reasons for 99% of the complaints with carbs.

#1 Smog era carbs, that were overcomplicated, and or tuned to please the epa.

#2 Poorly maintained, adjusted worn out carbs that fell into category #1 even when they were new.

#3 People who can't seem to tune carbs properly.



I do admit that a properly working EFI is more efficient, and often smoother. *

Carbs, when properly tuned, are:

Less work
are much more tolerant of cam/head/etc changes.
much cleaner install
have fewer failure points
best of all, they are a LOT cheaper.

















*There's still nothing quite like the sound of the secondaries howling on a V8 with a 4bbl carb.

[Crownvicman289]

Carbs, when properly tuned, are:

Less work
are much more tolerant of cam/head/etc changes.
much cleaner install
have fewer failure points
best of all, they are a LOT cheaper.

*There's still nothing quite like the sound of the secondaries howling on a V8 with a 4bbl carb.

Totally gonna have to disagree on a few points here. When you change heads and cam, you change jets on a carb. Well EFI needs a retune too, then it's 100% tolerant of cam/head/etc changes. Problem is, nobody ever does it then bitches when their junk runs like shit, just like the idiots that can't properly tune their carbs. Much cleaner install, gonna give you that one hands down. Fewer failure points. . . modern EFI has fewer moving parts than ever. Even so, the archaic EEC-IV is usually capable of telling you what's wrong. There's not much to go wrong, if you're apt enough to ohm out a few sensors to verify they're in tolerance and do the KOEO and KOER tests, you can eliminate 99% of what it's not. Most people don't know how to properly troubleshoot, which is also a problem if you're attempting to fix a carb'd vehicle. Totally gonna argue the cheaper part too. Last I checked a quarter horse is about $300, cheaper than a carb and intake off of Summit and you'd still need an FPR. Both can be had cheaper used, so again a moot point. It's all in what you want, I get so sick and tired of people dogging EFI saying that it's too complicated and won't tolerate mods because it's just not true. It's also not that complicated! Like somebody said above, this isn't the 60s anymore so move on already!

[86VickyLX]

His master cylinder will bolt up to the newer style brake booster and you need a 92+ booster.
:wave: I have the original 86 master cylinder on my car. And it DOES NOT bolt up to my 93 brake booster! It will not bolt up to his either.

[packman]

I think it's how you're raised and who you're raised with. I only know classic American cars. We're too poor to get anything new. Up until we got the CV (which btw, is and has been a classic for some time now), we were dealing with carbs. If you know how to tune a carb, then you will prefer taking tiny screw drivers and messing with the idle mixture screws and taking the carb apart to tune it. If you grew up around EFI, then you will be more of an electrician as Crownvicman289 said. I have been begrudgingly converted to EFI. EFI is 25 years old and at some point, I will have to learn. A lot of people don't even know what a carb is anymore!



Packman

[Pesty351]

My 84 MC bolted to a 94 booster.

[GoodSamaritan]

Totally gonna have to disagree on a few points here. When you change heads and cam, you change jets on a carb. Well EFI needs a retune too, then it's 100% tolerant of cam/head/etc changes. Problem is, nobody ever does it then bitches when their junk runs like shit, just like the idiots that can't properly tune their carbs.then it's 100% tolerant of cam/head/etc changes. Problem is, nobody ever does it then bitches when their junk runs like shit, just like the idiots that can't properly tune their carbs.

Well it all depends on how much of a change you make. A 600cfm carb will run pretty well on a mild, low displacement v8 (lo-po 302) all the way up to a 393 stroker, with the stock jets. Granted the 393, is going to be starving for fuel on the upper end, but it will still work ok as a daily driver until you can get around to it.


Much cleaner install, gonna give you that one hands down.

No argument there. I would like to point out that if the carb has more than 2 or 3 vacuum lines going to it, it's probably an emissions carb and should be relegated to door stop duty.


Fewer failure points. . . modern EFI has fewer moving parts than ever. Even so, the archaic EEC-IV is usually capable of telling you what's wrong. There's not much to go wrong, if you're apt enough to ohm out a few sensors to verify they're in tolerance and do the KOEO and KOER tests, you can eliminate 99% of what it's not. Most people don't know how to properly troubleshoot, which is also a problem if you're attempting to fix a carb'd vehicle.

Sometimes it isn't about moving parts as it is about intermittent sensors, connections, etc. When you consider that nearly every ground, connection, wire, solenoid, sensor, injector, etc, etc, even the ecm, are potential failure points, I stand by my original statement. As for troubleshooting, I'm going to point out that I started out in industrial electronics. I've custom built the controls and wiring harnesses for cnc machines that were 28 feet wide, and had 72 toggle switches and 18+ push buttons and 82 relays in the manual override section alone. I've worked with plc's, relays and pretty much every sort of transducer (scalable and otherwise) used in industrial applications up until 10 years ago. Troubleshooting is second nature to me and I've been working on cars for over 20 years.

Having said that, I still prefer the simplicity, and reliability of a well tuned carb.



Totally gonna argue the cheaper part too. Last I checked a quarter horse is about $300, cheaper than a carb and intake off of Summit and you'd still need an FPR. Both can be had cheaper used, so again a moot point.

If you grab a used intake for 50-75$ off cl, and then buy a new carb on sale from summit for 230-275$ that's pretty dang cheap.
Granted I'll give you the price being similar, when you get used parts. But let's look at replacement parts.

CARB - My local autozone has a complete rebuild kit on the shelf for an edelbrock 1406 (i keep using that as an example, because i am familiar with it) for around 45$ Summit or Jegs usually have that sort of stuff a tad cheaper. That will take care of pretty much anything that will get out of whack short of physically wearing out the shaft, or linkage.

EFI -After a brief search on autozone for the cheapest common crap they sell for my 89 wagon, here's what I've found.

MAP sensor $39.99
O2 sensor $39.99 each
Tps $32.99



It's all in what you want, I get so sick and tired of people dogging EFI saying that it's too complicated and won't tolerate mods because it's just not true. It's also not that complicated! Like somebody said above, this isn't the 60s anymore so move on already!

I get sick and tired of EFI guys looking down their noses at carbs and portraying them as stone age technology, only used by people too stupid to understand EFI. Let me tell you, I've run more cable, and troubleshot/built more control systems than anyone on this site that I'm aware of.
At the end of the day, I still prefer a carb on most of my project vehicles.
As for it not being the 1960's, just because a technology is old, doesn't make it worthless.

I'll give you an example. I have a really really REALLY tough beard. The latest super duper high dollar razors only last me one shave before starting to pull terribly. No matter how careful I was I constantly got razor burn on my neck.
At $25+ a box of cartridges it was getting expensive too. I was mentioning this to a friend one day when an old guy walks up and suggests I try an old double edge razor. You know, the kind your grandpa might have had in the medicine cabinet, where you open it up and drop in a razor blade. This was about the same time we were cleaning out my grandparents house, and I found my grandpa's 1948 Gillette Super Speed razor. I picked up a 10 pack of blades for $1 and change. WOW. I had to stop a time or two and double check my face to make sure it was actually cutting my beard. It was the first shave of my adult life that didn't hurt. After a little more research, I discovered I can get a week on 1 blade. That and I can buy a box of 100 blades online for 15$ That's two years of shaving for 15$ with no razor burn, vs uncomfortable expensive shaves.
I've never looked back.

Now for 99% of guys the new stuff works great. You don't have to pay as much attention to what you're doing so you don't nick yourself. But the old tech isn't totally obsolete just because it's been superseded by something new.

[slymer]

But the old tech isn't totally obsolete just because it's been superseded by something new.

+1

I can diagnose my car with a wire and multimeter. new cars you gotta have diagnostic readers (scan tools) to get much of anywhere with them usually. of course... all of mine are EFI, but not the new overtly electronic models. Carbs are even easier to diagnose... flap the choke back and forth and you can usually figure out what the issue is (or just check for vacuum leaks).

I prefer the older cars... mainly cause they're cheaper to run for total financial burden. You can run a LOT of gas through a gas hog for what you pay for new(er) cars these days.

[johnunit]

I'm sort of on both sides of this argument, but you buy a good scantool for 2-300 and you're good for any car in the forseeable future.
I'll probably be getting a scangauge for my next car, and it'll be years before a car comes out that it's not useable on.

[Crownvicman289]

Well it all depends on how much of a change you make. A 600cfm carb will run pretty well on a mild, low displacement v8 (lo-po 302) all the way up to a 393 stroker, with the stock jets. Granted the 393, is going to be starving for fuel on the upper end, but it will still work ok as a daily driver until you can get around to it.

I'm glad you took this all the right way, but damn did you make a lot of work for me! IMO, running a stock jetted 600cfm carb on as many engine combos, mild as they may be, is the same as running the stock tune on a slightly modified car. I like to tune. I'm not the best at it, but I can sure clean a lot up over stock. I haven't ponied up for dyno time to learn how to find MBT timing, but it's definitely on the to do list. Carb'd, EFI'd, or what have you I'm going to want to tune it any way I can. My truck, a '98 GMC K1500, was tuned with EFILive within the first month of me owning it. Cost me $800 for the stuff to do it, but I have no regrets. Even with stock everything, that truck absolutely woke up. Crown Vic was carbed and when I got back from Japan, I'd figured out how to tune, so I recurved the distributor and rejetted the carb with great success. I subsequently EFId it with even greater success. I tuned my MR2 by modifying a larger AFM (airflow meter) to work on the wrong motor, the reclocked the tension spring and set the bypass to achieve non-turbo AFRs. The engine responded tremendously and ran faster in CO with that than it ever did back at sea level. I was amazed. So you see, a properly tuned car is something I'm quite passionate about. A stock car with a stock tune, IMO, is not a correct tune as far as I'm concerned because there's a lot left on the table. Most of the people who rant about carbs > EFI won't admit that they can do nothing more than set idle screws, that's what drives me nuts. They don't know how to troubleshoot simple OBDI EFI and assume because their dad had carb'd trucks growing up that they are vicariously carb experts. I've been quite shocked by peoples sigs on here for that matter with horribly low dynos and unusually slow 1/4 mile times. I can only attribute it to a tune that needs a really good once over.



Sometimes it isn't about moving parts as it is about intermittent sensors, connections, etc. When you consider that nearly every ground, connection, wire, solenoid, sensor, injector, etc, etc, even the ecm, are potential failure points, I stand by my original statement. As for troubleshooting, I'm going to point out that I started out in industrial electronics. I've custom built the controls and wiring harnesses for cnc machines that were 28 feet wide, and had 72 toggle switches and 18+ push buttons and 82 relays in the manual override section alone. I've worked with plc's, relays and pretty much every sort of transducer (scalable and otherwise) used in industrial applications up until 10 years ago. Troubleshooting is second nature to me and I've been working on cars for over 20 years.

Having said that, I still prefer the simplicity, and reliability of a well tuned carb.

Despite all the additional things that can fail, few of them ever do. They merely get replaced as the owner starts shooting from the hip instead shooting with the Fluke to rule them out.


If you grab a used intake for 50-75$ off cl, and then buy a new carb on sale from summit for 230-275$ that's pretty dang cheap.
Granted I'll give you the price being similar, when you get used parts. But let's look at replacement parts.

CARB - My local autozone has a complete rebuild kit on the shelf for an edelbrock 1406 (i keep using that as an example, because i am familiar with it) for around 45$ Summit or Jegs usually have that sort of stuff a tad cheaper. That will take care of pretty much anything that will get out of whack short of physically wearing out the shaft, or linkage.

EFI -After a brief search on autozone for the cheapest common crap they sell for my 89 wagon, here's what I've found.

MAP sensor $39.99
O2 sensor $39.99 each
Tps $32.99[/EFI]

Here's where I have to be careful not to build an artificially optimistic case for EFI. Parts stores will never get my money for an O2, TPS, MAP, any of that. They're pocket sized and the junkyard typically has these items. The O2s are the only real consumable item, though the TPS is a plausible failure with its moving electrical contacts. Genuine Ford parts, be it junkyard or brand new, is all I'll touch for this stuff. How often do you have to rebuild your carb? Once every eon or 2 I hope. Same with the aforementioned parts. Neither one is terribly expensive to upkeep.


[QUOTE=GoodSamaritan;644840]I get sick and tired of EFI guys looking down their noses at carbs and portraying them as stone age technology, only used by people too stupid to understand EFI. Let me tell you, I've run more cable, and troubleshot/built more control systems than anyone on this site that I'm aware of.
At the end of the day, I still prefer a carb on most of my project vehicles.
As for it not being the 1960's, just because a technology is old, doesn't make it worthless. . .Now for 99% of guys the new stuff works great. You don't have to pay as much attention to what you're doing so you don't nick yourself. But the old tech isn't totally obsolete just because it's been superseded by something new.

I've had both, and I'll say again that my old 1406 Edelbrock ran damn near as smooth as EFI. It never stalled and even when it was below freezing never fell on its face when you poked the gas, it just worked. The only reason I ditched it was because I didn't feel like rejetting once or twice just to drive from CO to MI. The vapor locking didn't help much either. My pro-EFI argument on here is because people assume EFI can't "handle" engine modifications. Well with a retune it can do so quite nicely, so the grounds that most people base a carb's superiority on is worthless. It's ignorance and laziness, either too stuck in one's ways to learn something different or just too dumb and/or lazy. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, but IMO the majority of car enthusiasts see EFI tuning as black magic when it's nothing more than drive, record, cut, paste, repeat. There's not a whole lot of brain power involved in re-writing a VE map at all, but people are so intimidated by the process as a whole they make it out to be something it's not. I'm not even suggesting we agree to disagree, but I do think before preferring one or the other someone should have fully exploited both. I don't doubt I'll tune a few more carbs in my day, and I look forward to learning how to tune different types, like I said I like to tune and what good is a tuner who can only tune 1 thing? Maybe I'm just fucked in the head, because I definitely put in a lot more hours than some of my friends who claim to be enthusiasts. At this point, I don't even consider the upcoming 5.0 swap a project, more of a necessary evil or a maintenance item. My friend couldn't even muster the motivation to slap PI heads on another bottom end, degree the cams, and drop the motor in to sell a car for a profit. He had the car in pieces for months and eventually sold it in pieces. I just don't get it. . .

[1990LTD]

you got an MR2? bastard....

[1987cp]

Most of the people who rant about carbs > EFI won't admit that they can do nothing more than set idle screws, that's what drives me nuts.

Can't speak for specific instances, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right in a lot of cases.

[GoodSamaritan]

My truck, a '98 GMC K1500, was tuned with EFILive within the first month of me owning it. Cost me $800 for the stuff to do it, but I have no regrets.

$800? For that, I could pick up and exploder 5.0, a new intake and carb and still have money left over for new bearings and a vac advance distributor.



I'll say again that my old 1406 Edelbrock ran damn near as smooth as EFI. It never stalled and even when it was below freezing never fell on its face when you poked the gas, it just worked. Exactly why I love those things. Set them up once and forget them for the next few years. I just slapped a used one on my P30 stepvan. Runs like a champ and I haven't touched anything on it other than the idle speed screw, thus far. (where the !@#$% is my vac gauge?)


The only reason I ditched it was because I didn't feel like rejetting once or twice just to drive from CO to MI.
I've never been to CO, so I don't know how the change in elevation effects a carb. Here in ky, the elevation varies quite a bit depending on where you are. I can go a mile or so from here and be 600ft lower than I am here. Even so, my carbs don't seem to mind.


The vapor locking didn't help much either. You can't really blame that on a carb. Granted it is partly due to the lower fuel pressure, but it's easily solved by rerouting your fuel line. Or if you're lazy, get one of those fuel filters with a center tap on it and connect that to the vent line going back to the tank. (not recommended for tanks with an air tight gas cap) Even if the fuel boils, the pressure has somewhere to go other than back through the pump.



My pro-EFI argument on here is because people assume EFI can't "handle" engine modifications.
Not without retuning. Often the car will act nuttier than squirrel crap.


Well with a retune it can do so quite nicely, so the grounds that most people base a carb's superiority on is worthless.
Please tell me, how much money do you have invested in equipment to do this? I presume it's cheaper now than it used to be, with usb, and a laptop. Last time I looked into it though, it was not cheap.


It's ignorance and laziness, either too stuck in one's ways to learn something different or just too dumb and/or lazy.
I will admit to a bit of laziness, but then again, I do this for my own enjoyment. I deal with complex electronics for a living. Maybe that's why I prefer a good carb.


I'm not saying this applies to everyone, but IMO the majority of car enthusiasts see EFI tuning as black magic when it's nothing more than drive, record, cut, paste, repeat. There's not a whole lot of brain power involved in re-writing a VE map at all, but people are so intimidated by the process as a whole they make it out to be something it's not. I'm not even suggesting we agree to disagree, but I do think before preferring one or the other someone should have fully exploited both.

I'll admit that I haven't done much in the way of EFI tuning. I have however, done more than a little plc programming in my day. I can see the advantages... I still like my carb though.


I don't doubt I'll tune a few more carbs in my day, and I look forward to learning how to tune different types, like I said I like to tune and what good is a tuner who can only tune 1 thing? Maybe I'm just fucked in the head, because I definitely put in a lot more hours than some of my friends who claim to be enthusiasts. At this point, I don't even consider the upcoming 5.0 swap a project, more of a necessary evil or a maintenance item. My friend couldn't even muster the motivation to slap PI heads on another bottom end, degree the cams, and drop the motor in to sell a car for a profit

. He had the car in pieces for months and eventually sold it in pieces. I just don't get it. . .

I used to put in a lot more time on my rides than I do now. A lot of it is work, family, church, etc. I just don't have the time that I used to be able to devote to it. Even when I do get a little free time, there's always something else competing for it.

[Crownvicman289]

$800? For that, I could pick up and exploder 5.0, a new intake and carb and still have money left over for new bearings and a vac advance distributor.

That's the going rate for the equipment to tune OBDII GMs with EFI Live's software, stuff isn't cheap. On the flip side, it will tune most OBDII GM vehicles which have an amazing amount of adjustability. Despite that, it's only as complicated as you make it. You can get deeper as you learn more, while reaping the benefit of what you did know how to tune.


I've never been to CO, so I don't know how the change in elevation effects a carb. Here in ky, the elevation varies quite a bit depending on where you are. I can go a mile or so from here and be 600ft lower than I am here. Even so, my carbs don't seem to mind.

Even at 3000', mine ran pretty decent. I adjusted the idle screws and idle speed, but that was it. By the time I got it running there, it was time to leave (SD). I could tell it was a little rich, but driveability didn't suffer. When I rejetted in CO, I must have dropped 3 sizes then started getting creative with the needles and springs shooting for an ideal to me curve. 1500' isn't even worth rejetting for let alone 600', so if your elevation changes are within that range then you'll never have an issue.


You can't really blame that on a carb. Granted it is partly due to the lower fuel pressure, but it's easily solved by rerouting your fuel line. Or if you're lazy, get one of those fuel filters with a center tap on it and connect that to the vent line going back to the tank. (not recommended for tanks with an air tight gas cap) Even if the fuel boils, the pressure has somewhere to go other than back through the pump.

Though my setup wasn't ideal, I'm still going to blame the carb partly. I've heard of others having the same issue. The fact that the fuel sits in the bowl until it's burned doesn't help at all, if there were a way to circulate it it would help. I had an AFPR on my fender, so it did get recirculated there, but from the FPR to the carb is was a dead end. Warm starts always sucked too for some reason and again, I wasn't the only one.


Not without retuning. Often the car will act nuttier than squirrel crap.

Not so. Though the AFR curve and timing curve can be thrown off quite a bit on a MAF car, to the driver it will still seem fine. Unfortunately, he's blissfully ignorant of what he left on the table just because the motor is so tolerant of a wide range of AFRs and still able to be smooth, though not ideal. This is why you see dyno slips of untuned modified cars with WOT AFRs in the 14s.


Please tell me, how much money do you have invested in equipment to do this? I presume it's cheaper now than it used to be, with usb, and a laptop. Last time I looked into it though, it was not cheap.

Depends on what you want to tune, EFI Live for the truck was $800. I can make that back if I can manage to tune peoples' cars for a small profit. I have a spare wideband right now because the car it should be installed in full time isn't assembled. When it is this Spring, I'll have to buy another wideband to be transportable for the aforementioned tuning for profit. As for the MR2, I just hooked up the wideband and mixed and matched stuff I had in the garage to make the frankenstein AFM, so that was free. I plan on setting the AFPR on the Crown Vic so cruise is stoich to minimize the learning curve for adaptive fueling, but I am also considering a MAF swap (have a 95 Stang MAF in the garage) so I can use my SAFC to tune WOT AFRs if I have issues with the speed density setup. AFPR changes are able to be tuned out by the computer, so I'm just going to try to help the computer's learning process now and hope for the best. That has the possibility of costing me $30 if I have to pay for a computer locally. I won't pay for one over the internet unless the car runs really, really, really badly and even then I'd sooner unplug the O2s, reset the EEC, and ride it out on an AFPR tune with no adaptive fueling until I got a deal. The Corolla has a standalone that I got for $800, so as you can see the tuning process has the ability to be really cheap or really expensive depending on the vehicle. The new cars can be even more expensive to tune, but since it's something I hope to make a profession out of, it's something I'm willing to pay for. Moates Quarter Horse is like $300 for the whole shot, maybe $400 with software, but I think some versions can be had for free. It's been awhile since I researched it.


I will admit to a bit of laziness, but then again, I do this for my own enjoyment. I deal with complex electronics for a living. Maybe that's why I prefer a good carb.

I used to be an aircraft electrician and that had the opposite effect: the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn and the more complex projects I wanted to tackle.


I used to put in a lot more time on my rides than I do now. A lot of it is work, family, church, etc. I just don't have the time that I used to be able to devote to it. Even when I do get a little free time, there's always something else competing for it.

I know I won't have this much time forever, so I'm trying to knock out a lot of the more time consuming stuff while I can. I'm also hoping to learn as much as I can right now, because as I put in less time I'll probably stop learning as quickly too. The idea for me though like I said is for my projects to become more complex as the years progress, you're supposed to get smarter and better what you do not stay the same. My gripe is about laziness, you know, the guy who's single and claims to be a car guy so he's got all the time in the world but says he doesn't? What's he do? Watch TV all night or post on the internet nonstop like me? Can't wait to get home, before I deployed I remember I'd get itchy after sitting down for 10 minutes at the computer. I hope I have that same drive upon my return.

[86VickyLX]

My 84 MC bolted to a 94 booster.

Lucky bastard! Lol. Maybe the earlier Masters are different? Who knows.

[1987cp]

I used to put in a lot more time on my rides than I do now. A lot of it is work, family, church, etc. I just don't have the time that I used to be able to devote to it. Even when I do get a little free time, there's always something else competing for it.

Absolutley! Great picture of the real world for any number of people. I was watching an old Dick Van Dyke show where the woman goes on about all the free time she has during the day ... I knew instantly that had to be a joke because stay-at-home parents have about as much free time as one who works fulltime!


Can't wait to get home, before I deployed I remember I'd get itchy after sitting down for 10 minutes at the computer. I hope I have that same drive upon my return.

Oh, so you're still elsewhere? No wonder you're all itchy to get projects underway! I'm told single military guys tend to have a pretty good amount of cash flow, too, which has got to be nice. Other single guys are in the same boat as the rest of the country - i.e. happy to have any income at all - which means very little $$$ for projects regardless of how much time is available.



Next question, how'd the thread get headed in this direction? I thought it was about some guy's 5-speed swap!

[Crownvicman289]

I don't know, I started asking the same thing myself. I think I was trying to prevent the OP from making an uneducated decision to go to carb. Most people think EFI = emissions BS/expensive to mod and nothing else. Not at all the case, and since most on here aren't loaded, they don't throw aftermarket heads, (aggressive) cams, etc at their cars so its totally within the scope of EFI to run good, damn good, on his project. Much better than an untuned carb that he'd slap on, set the idle screws, and forget it. But alas, I'm rambling again. Carbs aren't as evil as I may have portrayed them above, but I think a lot of people go to them out of ignorance rather than all out performance needs being totally unaware of the tangible capabilities of EFI. Rambling again, I'll stop now.

[GoodSamaritan]

Edit, we posted at the same time.

I'll say it again. Old tech isn't always useless even though something "better" has come along.

When someone comes out with a reasonably priced kit, that has the throttle body, map, mass air, tps, etc all built into a clean looking unit, with one connection, I might change my mind. (all sensors have to be easily available, and inexpensive as replacement parts for regular cars, so they won't be a problem when the company invariably goes bankrupt/gets bought/is overrun and torched by a group of angry tree huggers/etc. Throw in an ecm with usb cable/bluetooth connectivity, free/built in software, and I might even consider paying $400-$500 for it. Until then... meh.

Factor in my decades old wagon with nearly all original sensors beginning to fail, and a planned 351w swap, and the carb is certainly MUCH cheaper.

289crownvicman, what do you use on 98+ panthers. I wouldn't mind moving a couple shift points, etc on my 99.

[CheeseSteakJim]

Lucky bastard! Lol. Maybe the earlier Masters are different? Who knows.

Until I got the fittings required for the '99 master cylinder, I was using my stock '88 MC on the '99 booster.

[Crownvicman289]

289crownvicman, what do you use on 98+ panthers. I wouldn't mind moving a couple shift points, etc on my 99.

98+ Panthers use the same stuff as the old boxes believe it or not. It's all the same hardware up through 2004, only the support (tunes, definitions, etc) differ. I hear nothing but good things about Lonnie at Blue Oval Chips. As for the DIYer, I haven't looked to see if the Moates Quarterhorse has the support for it, but I do know the hardware will plug right in. I think Lonnie uses diablosport for the hardware and builds his own tunes from there. Either way, there is no "flashing" of a -04 Ford, the unit stays plugged in or else you car runs as stock.

[86VickyLX]

Until I got the fittings required for the '99 master cylinder, I was using my stock '88 MC on the '99 booster.
Plastic or metal reservoir?

[86VickyLX]

Next question, how'd the thread get headed in this direction? I thought it was about some guy's 5-speed swap!
Th thread starter mentioned something about 4 barrel sound and feel. And I asked wtf he was talking about, and gave him some options to stay EFI. I'm sure more stuff arose about Carbs vs EFI, blah blah blah

END THE THREAD JACKING YALL'Z.

[Nick52284]

got the block down to the machine shop, i'll get pics when i get it back, yea this project is moving slowly but at least its still moving!

[Crownvicman289]

About those MCs and boosters. . . ABS and non-ABS aero vics used 2 different booster and MC combos which are incompatible with one another. Sounds like one is backwards compatible and the other isn't. From Ford, my ABS MC was painted black. When I pulled a non-ABS unit that I later found to be incompatible, it was silver and, IIRC aluminum as opposed to my iron MC.

[Nick52284]

well guys, its been a while again, but i have some good news! the engine is going to be a 347 stroker, i'm still doing the 5 speed swap and going with a carb setup, most likely a holley demon 770, that should make this big boat boogie! i'm uploading pics of the block, will post a link soon! i hope all is well in merc town!

Nick

[Nick52284]

a few pics of when i was putting the stock crank in, then decided that for what it would cost to get new rods and pistons because the ones i got for free were no good, i decided to go with a stroker kit instead

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_0672.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_0667.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_0677.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_0681.jpg

[packman]

Nice!!!:cool: Might as well get the most out of that 5.0L What are you using for heads? In any event, it looks like you're building a nice cruiser. Can't wait to see it finished.



Packman

[1990LTD]

Looking good man.


What cam are you running?


I wouldn't be putting any stock Ford heads on there, no way. AFR 205s :cool:

[Nick52284]

not sure on the head selection yet, i want to get the whole bottom end buttoned up first. all thats left after the stroker kit is oil pump, oil pan, timing chain and front cover, as for the cam i'm still not quite positive on what i'm going to do there, still doing some research, i've never built an engine from the ground up before so i want to make sure everything matches and i get a nice linear output graph in terms of hp/tq, i'm hoping for close to 400/400 at the crank but like i said i never built an engine before so i don't know if thats even possible on what i'm building! i do plan on going with electric fans and remote electric fuel pump so i'll save a few ponies there.

Nick

[1990LTD]

With 347 CID and the right heads/cam you could do that.


www.sbftech.com is a great website (if you don't know about it already) and you would be able to find lots of info about making power over there.

[1980c10]

Some trick flow twisted wedge fast as cast 190's would make that machine boogie nicely. Don't skimp on the heads and don't be afraid to go "big" as far as common knowledge is concerned.

[1990LTD]

definitely go big. perhaps talk to someone that can custom grind you a cam for your purposes and desired engine components

[sick88tbird]

Did I miss the part about this motor being a dedicated high-rpm race motor? Otherwise AFR205's and the like are far over-kill. AFR165's would be perfect, but depending on piston selection, there should be room for the 2.02 intake valves used in the AFR185's.....the 185's are VERY happy supporting 550+hp combos....so I don't see a need for a race head. For a reasonable goal of 400/400, you can keep things fairly mild and the end result will be a fun, fast car that doesn't shake your fillings out at idle or leave you wanting for more bottom end torque.

Good luck,
Don

[Nick52284]

k guys and gals, i got the stroker kit in today from summit! i took a bunch of pics during the un-boxing, on monday i'm going to get the pistons and rods to the machine shop to have him assemble them for me, then i'm going to get the block notched for the stroker crank and rods, then BUILD! here are the pics, there are a bunch of them....

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180622.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180635.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180738.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180807.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180849.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_180935.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181300.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181359.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181450.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181638.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181855.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_181904.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_182559.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_182748.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/nick52284/New%20Grand%20Marquis%20build/IMG_20120615_182845.jpg

lots of pics, on a side note can a mod replace the title to this thread with 347 instead of 306?

more pics to come as assembly starts!

Nick