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    what to do w/ the wagon ... OR ... my accidental project

    OK, i figure i need to start getting some details down on paper so i can make some decisions about what to do w/ this wagon. that's where you guys come in w/ your expertise and experience...

    backstory:
    i wasn't looking for this car, just found it by chance on craigslist last december while shopping for a replacement vehicle for my wife. trying to avoid a minivan and not wanting to spend much money, i stumbled across this '85 colony park for $850. it seats 8 (now technically 7, since i pulled the front/center lap-belt to replace the broken driver's receptacle) and runs strong. body was sideswiped however and subsequently a poor repair job was half-assed it appears. since i have a long-term goal to "someday" build a hot rod w/ my sons, i figured i could pick up this car and get a few years out of it as a kid hauler, then, potentially yank the 302 to build up for something else. was also intrigued by the long wheelbase and body-on-frame, as thoughts of using the chassis maybe for some rat rod-type project.

    long story short, even after only a few months this ol' car is kinda growing on me, and my kids are young enough to not be embarrassed by riding in it yet-- in fact they think it is the coolest car around because of the jump seats. so now i'm thinking, hmmm, maybe i should fixerup a little... it would give me an excuse to learn some bodywork (turns out my new neighbor in the 'hood does this for a living) and (maybe) be a cheap-ish motor project to cut my teeth on before jumping into something more souped up later.

    * * *

    goals:
    if i'm gonna drive a wagon w/ a V8, i'd like more "oomph" in it when i push the go-pedal. so why not take the extra effort and make it just a tad more fun to drive. for example, i've got a mostly one-lane highway commute home (55 mph), but there are two short 2-lane sections; of course, all the i'm-busier-and-more-important-than-you folks use those opportunities to race ahead and pass as many cars as possible-- even if traffic is flowing fine at 65 mph. i'm not looking for sustained high-speed efforts, i'd just like the option of occasionally going WOT on someone as they attempt to pass an old brady-bunch wagon and then be surprised when i pull away up the hill.

    what i want:
    • definitely want to go dual exhaust, headers, to get that SBF growl that i haven't heard since my first love ('65 'stang)... fwiw, my daily driver is a lifted jeep w/ a 4.0 inline 6 so i've got dreams of a throaty V8 w/ flowmasters (or the like).
    • i think i want it lowered a tad.
    • i want more horsepower.
    • i want a sleeper car, just to keep the import sedan guys on their toes.
    • bonus points if i could smoke the tires from a light a couple of times a year as warranted.


    what i've got:
    '85 merc gm colony park ls, which, apparently is probably the worst year of all for the 302 (D'OH!). CFI/TBI (i've seen it referred to as both). 85K miles. runs great, i have to say. i'm sure i could tune it up (plugs/wires/filter) and call it good and we'd get our money's worth just fine if i didn't have this wild idea to build it up.

    what i've learned so far:
    sounds like, motor swap aside, the two ways to go are explorer parts or mustang HO parts, which, if i understand, means primarily heads and the cam for this motor. due to emissions laws i can't revert to carb'd, so i either keep CFI, or convert to SEFI. read somewhere on this forum that my '85 block may or may not support roller cam.

    questions (lots) i have (...in no particular order):
    • can i build an HO motor to meet my expectations, above, using CFI?
    • due to finances, i'm sure i'll have to do this in phases... if i have to go SEFI, should i do that first, then worry about cam/heads, or do the valvetrain first and then dump the TBI?
    • will my current fuel pump suffice for SEFI?
    • w/ only 85K miles, could i get by leaving bottom alone (i.e. no machining) and just build up the top?
    • will the AOD support this kind of HP upgrade?
    • what non-motor upgrades should i consider, and in what order of priority? (i.e. better brakes? stall converter? shift kit? gears?)

    i think that should get us started for now... time for bed anyway.

    i appreciate any advice from the experts. like i said, this car has grown on me, and i think it would be a fun project (even if my better judgment says just drive it into the ground as-is and save the money... but where's the fun in that?).

    thanks in advance. :3gears:

    #2
    I am no expert but I have a few things to say. From what I have read CFI is not really mod friendly. Would probably be easiest to gain a significant amount of horse power by converting to a carb..but as you said..that is a no no. I dont think an SEFI swap is meant for anyone who is a beginner just because there is a lot of wiring involved which may be difficult for some people (not saying you can't do it..just saying what I have heard). Mid 80's mustangs came with CFI and AODs..and I know for sure that in 85 their CFI was a HO CFI. That could be an option for you...getting all of those components (which ever they may be..comp. injectors, throttle plate etc) and plopping them on your current engine. Again from what I hear CFI is not mod friendly and most people are willing to leave their stock CFI engine along if it is running properly because it can be a bitch to get running properly again (they are pretty fussy).

    I think gears will really make you fell as if the car is moving faster.

    I do not know much about converters but I do know that it is recommended to change them to (again) feel like you are going faster.

    Possibly adding a transgo shift kit will again make it feel you are going faster.

    I have also read around that 10hp was added to the already pitiful stock hp number if the dual exhaust was added...so that is a no brainer like you mentioned. Headers and and an off road (no cats) h pipe will help as well.

    That is all I can really say.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

    Originally posted by ootdega
    My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

    Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

    Originally posted by gadget73
    my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




    Comment


      #3
      I say this as someone who has never personally done anything with a CFI beyond driving one once, but:
      I Think you're going to have trouble getting significant increases in horsepower while keeping CFI. You'll have to go to SEFI because it's more flexible.

      The shift kit (under 100 bucks including fluid) is a good idea, and definetely upgrade beyond stock exhaust (even stock duals). Headers will make a noticeable difference, as will a performance H-pipe. It can be with cats or not, I don't think cats hurt power much in a mild 302 but they do add a few pounds and some expense. If you have tailpipe testing though, you have pretty much zero chance of passing without cats.


      What is your budget? IMO your meets would be met with something along the lines of a complete HO swap (cam, intake, and computer) with GT40 or aftermarket heads instead of the E7/HO heads. AFR 165 heads or similar, with headers, HO SEFI intake system, HO cam, dual exhaust, and you're talking conservatively 70+ HP increase at the crank.

      Gears can also help. If you do a lot of driving over 50ish mph you may lose some fuel economy, but if you do more city driving don't be afraid to go to 3.73 gears or even higher.

      If you're willing to pull the engine and/or transmission, a good performance torque converter, something mild with a lockup, will get you a lot more power off the line without a big sacrifice in driveability or fuel economy for under 500 bucks. They make the engine go to a higher rpm before it "catches" and gives full power to the wheels, so from a stop it means a stock converter might have the engine revving at 1500rpm when you floor it, and a performance converter will be siginificantly higher (most advertise a rough number, called stall speed). If your car makes, say, 100HP at 1500 RPM and 170 at 2500, you can imagine the resulting increase in thrust off the line.
      Last edited by johnunit; 03-29-2011, 07:48 AM.

      85 4 door 351 Civi Crown Victoria - Summer daily driver, sleeper in the making, and wildly inappropriate autocross machine
      160KMs 600cfm holley, shorty headers, 2.5" catted exhaust, 255/295 tires, cop shocks, cop swaybars, underdrive pulley, 2.73L gears.
      waiting for install: 3.27's, Poly bushings, boxed rear arms, 2500 stall converter, ported e7's, etc

      06 Mazda 3 hatch 2.3L 5AT (winter beater that cost more than my summer car)

      Comment


        #4
        I'd say run what ya got and do your suspension work first. Perhaps swap the good parts off of the Country Squire if you plan to get rid of that car. IDK much about CFI. I have a friend with a couple CFI MGMs, but they're stock. Put your dual exhaust on that and see what it sounds like. It seems as if you're at least keeping the motor from the CS. Rebuild that motor into what you want; perhaps a 331" street beast? Also, contact 85crownHPP; I thought he did the CFI to SEFI swap; or maybe that was FatnNasty. In any event, you'll have something driveable while you really plan things out. I got really scared when I read your other thread in the OTB section, but now I can sleep again knowing you got something better planned




        Packman

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by packman View Post
          Also, contact 85crownHPP; I thought he did the CFI to SEFI swap; or maybe that was FatnNasty.



          Packman
          Contact both of them as they both have done it.
          ~David~

          My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
          My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

          Originally posted by ootdega
          My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

          Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
          But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

          Originally posted by gadget73
          my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




          Comment


            #6
            think you might be confusing me w/ someone else... i don't have a country squire, and i'm not sure what "the OTB section" is??

            i'll poke around though for threads from 85crownHPP and FatnNasty; thanks.

            Originally posted by packman View Post
            I'd say run what ya got and do your suspension work first. Perhaps swap the good parts off of the Country Squire if you plan to get rid of that car. IDK much about CFI. I have a friend with a couple CFI MGMs, but they're stock. Put your dual exhaust on that and see what it sounds like. It seems as if you're at least keeping the motor from the CS. Rebuild that motor into what you want; perhaps a 331" street beast? Also, contact 85crownHPP; I thought he did the CFI to SEFI swap; or maybe that was FatnNasty. In any event, you'll have something driveable while you really plan things out. I got really scared when I read your other thread in the OTB section, but now I can sleep again knowing you got something better planned




            Packman

            Comment


              #7
              OTB = off topic bullshit


              If I were in your shoes (AKA the least amount of work) I would drop in an Explorer motor, pull a wiring harness from a donor SEFI Panther (87-91) and do a mass air swap with your choice of ECM (engine computer from a 5.0 HO mass air/automatic car), simply an uninstall/install aside from the throttle linkage which is easy to fix up.

              With the above method you would need to figure something out with the exhaust though depending on whether it's a GT40 or GT40-P motor.

              Least amount of $: Find an automatic 87-93 Mustang and strip it down to the shortblock and keep everything you removed. Take the ECM, headers and possibly wiring harnesses from that car and install everything on your wagon. I don't know if you could use the Mustang wiring or not but probably. Someone will correct me, I'm sure. I say this is more work because you're stripping the motor while it's still in the car but I could be way wrong.


              Either way (cheapest or easiest) if you want to go SEFI you're going to need to do some wiring, and unless you keep your stock exhaust you'll need to figure something out for that.


              supporting mods:

              big brakes (rear disc swap and bigger front brakes)
              rear end (trac lok unit and numerically higher gears)
              exhaust
              sigpic


              - 1990 Ford LTD Crown Victoria P72 - the street boat - 5.0 liter EFI - Ported HO intake/TB, 90 TC shroud/overflow, Aero airbox/zip tube, Cobra camshaft, 19lb injectors, dual exhaust w/ Magnaflows, Cat/Smog & AC delete, 3G alternator, MOOG chassis parts & KYB cop shocks, 215/70r/15s on 95-97 Merc rims

              - 2007 Ford Escape XLT - soccer mom lifted station wagon - 3.0 Duratec, auto, rear converter delete w/ Magnaflow dual exhaust

              - 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate Edition - Daily driver - 4.6 2 valve Mod motor, 4R75E, 2.73s. Bone stock

              Comment


                #8
                hmmmmmm

                you know, just writing this all out last night was helpful to me...

                whereas previously i had ruled out an engine swap, i'm realizing now because i wanna do both SEFI and HO, that it could get complicated and probably more expensive than just finding an exploder motor in a salvage yard.

                to that end-- what exactly should i be looking for if i went that route? specific years to avoid or seek out? specific packages? (i.e. sport, classic, whatever).

                i'll have to give this some more thought obviously, but methinks that might be smarter in the end.

                (how hard is it to yank an engine, both at the junkyard and in a garage?)

                Comment


                  #9
                  there are no known "bad" years, it's really been a pretty consistent engine, the 302. I've never come across any mention of packages: I think most packages for the explorer were purely cosmetic.

                  People like 1996, or some early 1997 year explorers, for the gt40 heads: the stock exhaust bolts right no with no spark plug issues, and also, the intake includes the internal egr. That said, HO engines are still pretty common, and intakes never wear out, so if you pull a '97-'01 explorer engine and want to keep egr, just pick up an HO intake. The gt40p heads can be dealt with... or just find some e7te heads if you can't find gt40s: they're really not all that bad, and go for like $30 on craigslist in good condition.

                  I don't enjoy the customer service and particular ambiance of a self-service junk yard, but bring a friend, you can pull an engine in a day at the junkyard, or in half a day at the garage.
                  If you think you'll be frustrated or just don't want to deal with the muddy hassle, the slightly higher class of junkyard will pull it for you: you'll pay a few hundred more for this in general.

                  I spent $450 on my exhaust, 2nd hand mac headers, 2nd hand catted h-pipe, new tailpipes mufflers and on back. If you find a '97-'01 engine, expect to pay $650, which would include brand new stainless frpp headers ($250) which make for a painless and proper adaptation to the newer gt40p heads.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Here is a start if you want....

                    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=112068
                    ~David~

                    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
                    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

                    Originally posted by ootdega
                    My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

                    Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
                    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

                    Originally posted by gadget73
                    my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by sinistral View Post
                      think you might be confusing me w/ someone else... i don't have a country squire, and i'm not sure what "the OTB section" is??

                      i'll poke around though for threads from 85crownHPP and FatnNasty; thanks.
                      Some lingo we use around here:
                      OTB=off topic bullshit
                      The battlefield=No holds barred flame wars

                      Ford Panther platform= Crown Victoria (CV or LTD)
                      Mercury Panther platform= Grand Marquis (GM)
                      Lincoln panther platform= Town Car (TC)
                      Ford panther platform wagon= Crown Vic Country Squire
                      Mercury panther platform wagon= Grand Marquis Colony Park

                      Barge= BIG late 70s early 80s Lincolns
                      Box= 79-91 panther platform cars (only up to 89 Town Cars)
                      Aero=92-97 panther platform cars (90-97 town cars)
                      Whale= 98-up panther platform cars

                      So you near as makes no difference DO have a country squire, because the Fords and the Mercuries simply aren't that different.
                      Last edited by 91waggin; 03-31-2011, 11:52 AM.
                      Originally posted by gadget73
                      There is nothing more permanent than a temporary fix.
                      91 Mercury CP, Lopo 302, AOD, 3.08LSD. 3g upgrade, Moog wagon coils up front, cc819s in the back. KYB GR-2 police shocks. Energy suspension control arm bushings. Smog deleted.
                      93 F-150 XLT, 302, ZF 5-spd from 1-ton, 4wd.
                      Daily--07 Civic Coupe. Bone stock with 25k miles
                      Wife--14 Subaru Outback. 6-speed.
                      95 Subaru Legacy Wagon--red--STOLEN 1/6/13

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by 91waggin View Post
                        Aero=92-97 panther platform cars (90-97 town cars)
                        Whale= 98-up panther platform cars
                        Thanks, I always wondered what those meant.



                        87 Ford LTD Crown Victoria Country Squire Station Wagon. 4.10's, Repacked Trac Loc, Boxed LCA's, Explorer Intake, 65mm T-body, 'Stang Cam, 'Stang Air tube, K&N, GT-40X Heads, 1" Spacer, 1 5/8 BBK's, 2.5" Pypes X-pipe w/high flow cats, Single Chamber Thunderbolts, B&M 'vertor, Po-lice Swaybars.

                        91 Mercury Grand Marquis Colony Park Station Wagon. K-Code, 4.10's, Repacked Trac Loc, MK VII LSC Engine, 'Stang Upper Intake, Stang Air Tube, K&N, 65 mm T-Body, 'Stang Headers, 'Stang Cat Pipe,'Stang Torque Convertor, 2 Chamber Thunderbolts.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Yeah, I just sorta figured it out as I went around here.
                          Originally posted by gadget73
                          There is nothing more permanent than a temporary fix.
                          91 Mercury CP, Lopo 302, AOD, 3.08LSD. 3g upgrade, Moog wagon coils up front, cc819s in the back. KYB GR-2 police shocks. Energy suspension control arm bushings. Smog deleted.
                          93 F-150 XLT, 302, ZF 5-spd from 1-ton, 4wd.
                          Daily--07 Civic Coupe. Bone stock with 25k miles
                          Wife--14 Subaru Outback. 6-speed.
                          95 Subaru Legacy Wagon--red--STOLEN 1/6/13

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I did a SEFI swap too, though the usefulness of the info in my post would be limited for you. I did put up some wiring info that'd get you headed in the right direction though. Other than that this is bolt in and go, just hit the pull and pay for a $200 Exploder engine and SEFI panther harness like me and you'll be set.
                            1992 CVLX. 5.0 HO/GT40P/T5/3.73/trak-lok with bolt ons. 02 front CVPI setup, rear HPP setup, CVPI shocks around, F250 radiator, e-fans, and the power of 3G. 15.92@89mph, 2.4 60', 4700' elevation (5500' DA) with 3.08 open rear and the old oil chugging 289. RIP.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by BerniniCaCO3 View Post
                              there are no known "bad" years, it's really been a pretty consistent engine, the 302 . . .
                              People like 1996, or some early 1997 year explorers, for the gt40 heads: the stock exhaust bolts right no with no spark plug issues, and also, the intake includes the internal egr. That said, HO engines are still pretty common, and intakes never wear out, so if you pull a '97-'01 explorer engine and want to keep egr, just pick up an HO intake.
                              I may head to the Pull N Pay today to look for a 96/97 Exploder. What all should I be looking for (despite front-end damage) to make sure motor isn't toast? Pull valve covers and spark plugs and check for what -- milky/foamy residue? Metal shavings? This would be my first engine swap, so I'd appreciate any insight...

                              Comment

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