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wide ratio swap? and other trans improvements. respond soon (ordering parts)!

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    wide ratio swap? and other trans improvements. respond soon (ordering parts)!

    Alright! My aod rebuild at home got a cool boost: local tranny shop, single-owner run, is going to help me out. He already lent me the books, and we're supposed to tear apart my aod core this Thursday. Ordering parts tomorrow! Sweet! I got my 1990 aod core last week.

    Now.... KISS, or try for the wide ratio swap? Kinda need to decide this BEFORE ordering a rebuild kit.

    Excerpts and links below, but, it seems that the 4r70w is a direct swap? Just get one of those, and pull out, according to one article, these parts:
    Table 1
    DOUBLE RACED REAR CASE BEARING F3LY-7F242-A
    4R70W OUTPUT HUB 5.16" OD
    4R70W RING GEAR 88 TEETH F3AZ-7A153-A
    DOUBLE RACED DIRECT DRUM TO HUB BEARING F1AZ-FF240-AA
    STAMPED DIRECT DRUM F2AZ-7F283-B
    4R70W PLANET F2AZ-7A398-A
    4R70W SUN GEAR 31 TEETH F3LY-7F242-A
    4R70W SUN TO SHELL BEARING 1.457" OD
    4R70W SUN GEAR SHELL 38 TEETH
    STAMPED STEEL REVERSE DRUM


    ....And they pop right into the AOD housing, no mods required?
    Now is the stock aod valve body OK? It was suggested that maybe a shift kit would be advisable.
    If I do this, I want a 4r70w rebuild kit of course, right?
    Any other problems i might create for myself?
    ...and while I'm at it, maybe just get a new torque converter, stock? I've got an HO engine with gt40 heads, but an explorer cam for low end torque. Not racing it. So I'm thinking stock, low stall speed, is best for getting my car's 2 ton ass out of its own way?
    Any other basic improvements you'd order?
    I'm still wondering if I ought to do a bone stock aod rebuild, no shift kit, no nothing, and get something that works. Don't want to jeopardize the project with too many complications.

    Please let me know your advice!
    -bernard


    on a related note, I've been thinking about rear gears, 3.55 or 3.73. Where does limited slip come in handy?






    Courtesy the archives I found these:
    http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00111.html
    http://www.clickclickracing.com/tech%20mods1.pdf

    And the most relevant excerpts:
    WIDE RATIO AOD
    The AOD and AODE share the same gear set with
    (Ratio 1=2.40, 2=1.47, 3=1.00, 4=0.67) which is
    considered “even spaced” where the AODE-W/4R70W
    has “wide ratio” gearing (Ratio 1=2.84, 2=1.55, 3= .00
    4=.70). Wide ratio gearing has many advantages, mostly
    Helping to accelerate heavy or underpowered vehicles,
    It is also a strong gearset both in design and function with
    a deeper 1
    st
    gear more torque is transferred to the output
    shaft. Note that the all wide ratio geared trans should
    utilize a special hardened output shaft found in the
    4R70W.
    A popular swap is to install the wide ratio gearing from the 4R70W into the AOD. This task can be simple or painstaking both in
    assembly and valve body calibration. As mentioned, the easiest way to perform the swap is to find a decent 4R70w core and swap
    everything needed into the AOD – bearings and all. I have detail the items needed in Table 1.
    Before performing the swap you should also consider your VB choice. The AOD valve body is HYDROLICALY DESIGNED to shift
    the even spaced gear set does a terrible of shifting the wide ratio gear set. Uncalibrated vb’s will have a LONG first gear (due to rpm
    needed to tell gov to shift) and the 2-3 shift will hold just a tad longer than before at part throttle, however the 2-3 becomes to short
    due to the RPM you had to gain just to get the 1-2 shift. A manual vb or custom calibrated vb is the best suggestion to control this
    gear set in a more controlled manner. If you are determined to tinker with it yourself, start with the lowest stall governor and epoxy
    mod (mentioned later in this article) and work up from there.

    #2
    is there a difference between a 99-01 4r70w and an 01-04?
    Here's the nearest craigslist guy with a 4r70w core, he has 3 options actually:

    99-00 Mustang GT automatic trans (4R70W) from a 99 Mustang GT, unknown mileage, shifted fine when removed, torque converter performance unknown. $100 obo
    01-04 Mustang GT automatic trans (4R70W) from a 01 Mustang GT, 71K, shifted fine but would hang in neutral sometimes @35-45 mph. $100 obo
    01-04 Mustang GT automatic trans (4R70W) from a 04 Mustang GT, 100K, shifted fine thru all gears except overdrive. $100 obo

    Comment


      #3
      what most concerns me is whether my stock aod valve body will work with the wide ratio swap, or just how fickle adjusting it will be... or expensive, outright replacing the vb, could be.
      Right now have 3.08 rear gears, and I'm not sure when I'm going to get around to upgrading them.

      Comment


        #4
        not sure on the WR swap, but I'd give it a looser/higher stall converter. Stock is around 1500, and even a stock lopo benefits from a higher stall on both the drag racing simulators I had on my old computer. With GT40 heads you've moved the powerband up higher than stock. I wouldn't be afraid of a 2200-2500 rpm stall. That's probably on the mild side of what I'll put in my vic when I have a chance.

        85 4 door 351 Civi Crown Victoria - Summer daily driver, sleeper in the making, and wildly inappropriate autocross machine
        160KMs 600cfm holley, shorty headers, 2.5" catted exhaust, 255/295 tires, cop shocks, cop swaybars, underdrive pulley, 2.73L gears.
        waiting for install: 3.27's, Poly bushings, boxed rear arms, 2500 stall converter, ported e7's, etc

        06 Mazda 3 hatch 2.3L 5AT (winter beater that cost more than my summer car)

        Comment


          #5
          try a 3 k stall, or give alan a call at dirtydog performance, he can set you up right nice!
          89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....

          Comment


            #6
            If your looking for fuel economy a higher stall wont help. Once I modded Creamys engine with normal bolt on mods and stock trans 2-3 shifts happened real quick sometimes. Almost like 200 RPM after 1-2 shift. Thought this might have something to do with the govener and a Mustang one would help that. Of course there made of onobtainium new at this point.

            Current tranny is an AOD built from the 4r70W dont know some of the things done to it though. Front pump isnt AOD requires a different larger ID/OD front and rear seals. Also means different torq converter and front yoke. Working with local Ford dealer took about 3 or 4 trys to match the seals up. PN on them were dammaged on removal. It might have the W tail shaft HSG no guess at this time as to the front pump. Spoke with several HP trany sources with no luck on the pump. Trany was built by the trany tec at a Ford dealer for a mechanic that worked there. Still the same quick shift 2-3
            I did install a Lentech Valve body Stage II with the electric OD lock out. Switch on no OD switch off OD operational. Still has the same quick 2-3 shift under hard throttle. Floored in drive shifts around 4800 1-2. 2-3 seemes to depend on how much the tires spin or hook. I can hold the gears manually so I dont worry about it much. Lots of line pressure shifts are neck snapping even in drive normal driving. This build will dannage other componets in the drive line if not upgraded.
            Valve body does allow holding holding OD at speeds over 150. Downshifting once in OD should not be done with the switch. Either floor it and let the kickdown do it then lock it out with the switch (over 55 or so this wont happen) or slow down to the point it does downshift itself then lock it out. Also installed deep sump oil pan and 4 weel drive filter. Other helps is to install larger lines to the cooler or coolers. I run 3/8 hose. This means 3/8 ID instead of like less than 1/4 ID of stock lines. I did use Braded Aeroquip another benifit of this it eliminated sharp and sometimes crushed bends of the stock lines. Also installed a temp gage and an external filter znd a large cooler in front think its lake a 25 or 30k unit.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by turbo2256b; 01-24-2012, 11:54 AM.
            Scars are tatoos of the fearless

            Comment


              #7
              Turbo2256b your trans is built! And how a 4r70w can upgrade a AOD is interesting.

              Not trying to rain on anybody's parade here but if I was going to build my first transmission( never have before) I would probably stick to a simple rebuild. Seems like there are potential question marks regarding the WR upgrade if you don't know the ins and outs. If you build transmissions for a living and your constantly thinking about it and researching it you could probably do it in your sleep yeah. Just saying.

              I would probably do like an AOD with a TransGo HPP kit, A overdrive servo and a converter. The 4x4 pan and filter upgrade sounds cool too.

              Comment


                #8
                Hah! turbo2256b, that's further than I'll ever go.

                Where does governor choice come into play? I've got in my car now a stock aod for my grand marquis. However-- the core I found, is the stock aod from the same year (1990) mustang. Same governor, or does the mustang trans have a different one?

                OK, so the short of it is, the wide ratio swap WILL invite more idiosyncrasies, which will then require additional mods/ fine tuning to fix? I can't just buy a 4r70w, drop all the gears into an AOD shell + valve body, and expect it to work right?
                If I can just drop in the wide ratio gears with an unmodified valve body, then that's cool.

                I'll probably keep this one simple, even if I do have a professional who's said he'll help me.
                I've given up on fuel economy. If a 2000rpm stall converter makes sense for this car, to let the explorer/ho hybrid engine get a little higher in rpm, then that's what I should do.

                I think, to not be doing 700rpm on the on-ramp at 20-30mph, I'll definitely put in steeper rear gears-- and keep the stock aod. Not putting much more than 200hp through it, so the aod should not be weak for my purposes.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by BerniniCaCO3 View Post
                  Hah! turbo2256b, that's further than I'll ever go.

                  Where does governor choice come into play? I've got in my car now a stock aod for my grand marquis. However-- the core I found, is the stock aod from the same year (1990) mustang. Same governor, or does the mustang trans have a different one?

                  The Mustang has a different one. The complete unit perssfits on the output shaft and under full throttle shifts around 5800 about a 1000 more RPM than a panther AOD.

                  OK, so the short of it is, the wide ratio swap WILL invite more idiosyncrasies, which will then require additional mods/ fine tuning to fix? I can't just buy a 4r70w, drop all the gears into an AOD shell + valve body, and expect it to work right?
                  If I can just drop in the wide ratio gears with an unmodified valve body, then that's cool.

                  As far as I know the guts from the 4r fit in the AOD and work with the AOD valve body. Think mine had a stock AOD valve body possibly with some shift kit mods. I did install the Lentec which was a more radical valve body juced up line pressure and electric OD lock out. There may be some other suttle changes in the tranny your trany guy should know about or talk with some aftermarket builders and parts suppliers. Such as more clutches etc. If you want

                  I'll probably keep this one simple, even if I do have a professional who's said he'll help me.
                  I've given up on fuel economy. If a 2000rpm stall converter makes sense for this car, to let the explorer/ho hybrid engine get a little higher in rpm, then that's what I should do. I have alot more engine than your planned build cam a bit wilder over twice the output. About as much cam as possible and live with a stock converter. Yea a higher stall might help me but I dont need such a thing 95% of the time. Rather have the economy. My 18 MPG could end up 12 on the highway.

                  I think, to not be doing 700rpm on the on-ramp at 20-30mph, I'll definitely put in steeper rear gears-- and keep the stock aod. Not putting much more than 200hp through it, so the aod should not be weak for my purposes.
                  If it was my build (was there at one point) would go possible with the 4r/AOD mix or AOD, stock converter and 3.55 gears

                  Some in here might have other thoughts. Possibly more info on the 4r/AOD setup.
                  Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
                    If your looking for fuel economy a higher stall wont help. Once I modded Creamys engine with normal bolt on mods and stock trans 2-3 shifts happened real quick sometimes. Almost like 200 RPM after 1-2 shift. Thought this might have something to do with the govener and a Mustang one would help that. Of course there made of onobtainium new at this point.
                    Stock governor made trans shift early with higher rear gears? Ok, so it's not just me...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by 86VickyLX View Post
                      Stock governor made trans shift early with higher rear gears? Ok, so it's not just me...
                      I think it had more to do with spinning tires than gears as its happened to me with 3.08, 3.27 and 3.55 gears. Have had it happen with other cars like my 63 plymouth waggon. Think a lot of tire spin raises the rpm quickly govener hits its shift point wile the tires are spinning and goes into the next gear thinking the car is going faster than it is. Will most likely happen when I go to 3.90 gears in the near future.
                      Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                      Comment


                        #12
                        my 88's AOD is running 4r70w gears (hence an AOD-W)

                        I also have the HD overdrive (A servo and matching band). I'm thinking with 2nd gear slipping in the Mark that I should swap the transmissions between the cars. But I'll probably just get the Mark's rebuilt at my favorite shop. It probably just needs clutches and a 1-2 shift governor.

                        Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                        rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                        Originally posted by gadget73
                        ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                        Originally posted by dmccaig
                        Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I do have a AOD TransGo shift kit for sale if anyone is interested.
                          Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                          Comment


                            #14
                            http://tccoa.com/articles/tranny/tra...on/page7.shtml
                            Under "AOD only," why does he say that I NEED the tailshaft from a 1993 mark viii? Is it only because it's hardened, versus the stock aod tailshaft/ output shaft? Or is it vitally necessary?
                            OTOH, the defunct kit http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=1674 shows only gears and clutches needed.
                            I'm not putting enough power down to worry about twisting the stock aod output shaft, even with 2.8:1 instead of 2.4:1 first gear-- I really don't think so, anyway.
                            So long a the stock aod output shaft is fully compatible with whatever i need to cannibalize from a 4r70w.

                            slymer, tell me how your aod wide ratio works out for you, and what you had to do?
                            Again, mostly asking if I can get away with just dropping the gears in!

                            I want to keep the mustang governor on, for higher rpm shift points (or should I transfer my panther governor over?)

                            turbo2256b, I could be interested. What's involved in the install (how involved is the install), and what benefits will I obtain?
                            You know my build: HO/explorer engine in a heavy colony park wagon, with 3.08 rear gears-- for now. I enjoy accelerating on to the highway, and just otherwise want enough low end torque not to have to kick down a gear just to climb a not very steep hill. Which is kindof where I am now: either I'm at 1000rpm or even as little as 700rpm with no power to even maintain speed on an incline, or I have to kick down a gear and do 2000+ rpms and end up accelerating up some short slope when I really didn't want to have to.
                            So I want more low end torque at the wheels, and I want to be at higher rpms in most gears so I'm not dogging the engine all the time (or forced to kick down a gear all the time)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Does the 4r70w wide ratio swap include the HD (heavy duty, 2" wide) overdrive band, too? what do you mean by "A servo and matching band," slymer? (what do I need to know to buy the right parts, and install correctly, for the heavy duty od mod?)

                              Comment

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