New-ish head from Edelbrock....

[Jay Allen]

Can we reopen this discussion?

Lots of bombs in here too.

[P72Ford]

This was never closed.

There are no laws against thread digging.

[Jay Allen]

This was never closed.

There are no laws against thread digging.

THANKS!!!

What makes a Patriot head, a 20* edelbrock head, a RHS head, a dart head, a pro comp head, an afr head, a brodix head

Different?

Why would you (this is plural - not singular) choose any one of these heads vs another?

For the sake of discussion, keep the TFS High Port and TFS TW out of it now.

[P72Ford]

THANKS!!!

What makes a Patriot head, a 20* edelbrock head, a RHS head, a dart head, a pro comp head, an afr head, a brodix head

Different?

Why would you (this is plural - not singular) choose any one of these heads vs another?

For the sake of discussion, keep the TFS High Port and TFS TW out of it now.

Hmmm. I'm no engine builder, but I guess I will try and give this a go...

As far as what makes them different, I guess not a whole lot. Obviously each manufacturer offers variations on cylinder heads for the same application. By this I mean chamber volumes, runner volumes, valve sizes, quality of components, used, etc. But they all do that, so thats not what sets them apart.

I suppose if there is anything "proprietary" that sets one name apart from the other, it'd be things like the runner cross section geometry, how that varies with distance through the port, geometry around the valves, etc Port geometry, generally speaking. And thats just my guess, as I can't even say that I know its that different between brands.

As far as how I would go about making a choice...

Being totally honest, I'd do lots of reading (particuluarly sources with practical experience). I'm expecting you to caution me about the dangers of reading misinformation, but what other ways are there for a first time engine builder to make the choice? I mean, the manufacturers all post flow rates at different lift values, and from what I see that is generally what folks look at when they are buying cylinder heads (not that this is the correct mentality). "How much air can I move at a given lift value?" Obviously a flow rate is dependent on port geometry, and so are things like air velocity, air velocity profile, etc. I would make my decision based on personal research.

Ideally... I'd like to see some CFD; 3D pressure and velocity maps, etc. (I have some experience in that area). But thats not something that I've ever come across when looking at cylinder head ads. Theory isn't everything, though.

However, if all of these heads are relatively similar... It seems that more important than the cylinder head used, are the valve events that take place.

[Jay Allen]

P72, you said some very good things.

There aren't any differences that will make a hill of beans of difference. Anything that is very good is proprietary and is covered by patents. On TFS heads have ever had patents on them and that is why there are no other heads like them.

There is a TW head and that is its own design.

There is a High Port head and its cousins. The Canfield when it was made and the FMS Z-304. They are very close in design. Canfield for a number of years paid a royalty to Summit for patent infringement. The patent on this head ran out in March 2008.

Then there is everything else. Stock port placement, stock valve angle, they all move the intake valve the wrong direction and shroud it against the cylinder wall.

When I guy says he likes the afr and the 210cc edelbrock, he might as well say he likes the same thing. Because for all practical purposes, it is.

[Jay Allen]

The best thing Edelbrock has to offer is intake manifolds.

This is spot on!!!

[Jay Allen]

As far as canfields go, I have never ran them or know anyone personally who does, but every time I use them in desktop dyno, everything goes to shit. Very disappointing.

Desk Top dyno? That program is the absolute worst of all computer simulators out there.

If you have never had a set, how do you know what they flow with the intake bolted to them and what the total runner length is?

When the Canfield 195cc heads were made, OOTB they were tough, very tough to beat.

Nate Laufer over on SBFTech built a 289 under 10.00:1 compression using these heads. Parker FW intake, a carb that makes that other thread even more retarded, a tight lash solid street roller, it made 475hp at 7000 RPM (remember 289) and it made over 400HP by 6000 RPM. He drives this thing everywhere. Its a TRUE driver. It runs 11.30 at 120. It is in a 1965 or 1966 (I forget) Mustang.

[Jay Allen]

1. The price is ridiculous for the Edelbrock heads. It makes you wonder just where the hell the money is going if they're charging $2000 for a set of heads, when with their manufacturing capability, you'd think that the price would eventually drop for the same technology after a while. I have a good idea why it never does (inflation, greed, etc, lol), but just the same....I really can't see why this Xtreme head costs over $2000 for a set, as Edelbrock hasn't reinvented the wheel here with this new head.

Have you ever been to Torrance and walked through Edelebrock? How can you comment on their "manufacturing facilities" if you have not been there nor discussed this?

And now you say they haven't "reinvented the wheel", what basis do you have for that?

And you know, companies like Edelbrock only make money if they sell product. It is obvious that their purchasing team and marketing committee feel that what they have invested in this that 2000.00 is fair price. Why make it if you cannot sell it?

Business is not your strength is it?

2. If AFR is managing to make a hell of a lot of HP with all of those 'stock' parameters, usually coming within a few HP of TFS heads, and all of their special features....that's really not saying much for TFS, isn't it? I would use either product, as both can do the job, but until TFS started coming out with CNC'ed heads....AFR was the best choice for an out-of-the-box head, and still is. If you wish to do CNC porting afterward, then TFS is an excellent choice. At the very least, AFR products make a shitload of HP for almost every engine they are bolted onto, and are superior to most everything else out there.

TFS heads are the only in-line heads that are used in racing classes. This is for a reason, they make more steam. TFS TW heads in Pure Street carry a penalty, no other in line head does.

Your next comments about AFR heads are hilarious. I'll put my TFS 190cc FAC heads against your AFR. Now my heads, that I own. Straight from TFS, just the way I sell them. No tricks no gimmicks. They are less money option for option and make more steam.

The TFS TW 170cc head, the TFS 190cc FAC, the TFS TW-R head (206cc) are as cast runners and are not ported. You say TFS and CNC ported heads like it is a big deal. CNC porting does nothing by itself. Its the development and who did the development that is key. And afr 185cc CNC head will flow less than a 190cc TW FAC. So as you make it sound, the CNC porting is such a big deal, then where is/are the benefits? Again, dollar for dollar, option for option, do you want the bet?

How many engines with ALL heads have you ran? Where is your experience in this field?

3. To be honest....there's really little point in developing 'bigger and better' products for most of these engines....most of these products nowadays are simply a very expensive way to squeeze a few extra HP out of an engine package (anyone remember the newfangled BBK SSI intake, that really didn't deliver as promised?).

I do not even know where to begin here. But we do agree on the BBK intake. Most of what bbk sells is a joke.

1. If you want to improve on the design, then build a matching head/intake combo that reconfigures the intake and exhaust ports to more efficient designs,
2. and then spring that on the unsuspecting public.
3. I've often wondered what a redesigned head would do for older engines, such as the FE motor;
4. I have an idea that would revolutionize this engine, but I'm not going to say anything until I can maybe finagle someone into actually building it....
5. the same thinking could go into the 302/351W, since the mod motor is too expensive to build, and doesn't generate the same HP per dollar that the Windsor can.

1. Then how will it bolt on? I worked at TFS just before summit bought TFS and we worked on the intake manifold. Packaging concerns and fitment always come into play. As far as "matched" goes, that is what I do.
2. There you go shoving stuff onto folks. I would educate folks first so they understand the benefits like you do not as you push stock style heads.
3. It's been done. It's been run. Too expensive to bring to market for such a narrow focus.
4. You mean someone stupid enough to listen.
5. Doesn't generate the HP dollar for dollar? OMG.......The new 4.6 comes stock, standard with 400HP OEM from the factory. I want you to build a 302 that passes emissions, drives perfectly in all climates and makes 400HP.

Get back to us on the cost of that.

[Pirate]

Have you ever been to Torrance and walked through Edelebrock? How can you comment on their "manufacturing facilities" if you have not been there nor discussed this?

And now you say they haven't "reinvented the wheel", what basis do you have for that?

And you know, companies like Edelbrock only make money if they sell product. It is obvious that their purchasing team and marketing committee feel that what they have invested in this that 2000.00 is fair price. Why make it if you cannot sell it?

Business is not your strength is it?







TFS heads are the only in-line heads that are used in racing classes. This is for a reason, they make more steam. TFS TW heads in Pure Street carry a penalty, no other in line head does.

Your next comments about AFR heads are hilarious. I'll put my TFS 190cc FAC heads against your AFR. Now my heads, that I own. Straight from TFS, just the way I sell them. No tricks no gimmicks. They are less money option for option and make more steam.

The TFS TW 170cc head, the TFS 190cc FAC, the TFS TW-R head (206cc) are as cast runners and are not ported. You say TFS and CNC ported heads like it is a big deal. CNC porting does nothing by itself. Its the development and who did the development that is key. And afr 185cc CNC head will flow less than a 190cc TW FAC. So as you make it sound, the CNC porting is such a big deal, then where is/are the benefits? Again, dollar for dollar, option for option, do you want the bet?

How many engines with ALL heads have you ran? Where is your experience in this field?







I do not even know where to begin here. But we do agree on the BBK intake. Most of what bbk sells is a joke.







1. Then how will it bolt on? I worked at TFS just before summit bought TFS and we worked on the intake manifold. Packaging concerns and fitment always come into play. As far as "matched" goes, that is what I do.
2. There you go shoving stuff onto folks. I would educate folks first so they understand the benefits like you do not as you push stock style heads.
3. It's been done. It's been run. Too expensive to bring to market for such a narrow focus.
4. You mean someone stupid enough to listen.
5. Doesn't generate the HP dollar for dollar? OMG.......The new 4.6 comes stock, standard with 400HP OEM from the factory. I want you to build a 302 that passes emissions, drives perfectly in all climates and makes 400HP.

Get back to us on the cost of that.

My, my, that is all rather fascinating.

[Jay Allen]

My, my, that is all rather fascinating.

What part is fascinating?

Exactly what part?

[Pirate]

What part is fascinating?

Exactly what part?

All of it, really. The sheer (not 'shear', by the way) amount of one man's opinion.

[Jay Allen]

All of it, really. The sheer (not 'shear', by the way) amount of one man's opinion.

OK, see, I admit a mistake.

Damn, I made a typo. Sorry.

Anytime you (or anyone) would like to discuss cylinder heads, NSA, let me know. PM me your number and a time to call.

And there is no opinion in there.

Patents are matter of public record.

Rules and weight penalties are everywhere.

Go to AFR's site and READ where they say their head is modeled off of a GT-40.

I can back up everything I say with factual data and proof.

What proof based on your own testing do you have?

[Grand Marquis GT]

Knock it off.

Jay, what do you think about Kaase/Jeg's SBF heads? I'm a self proclaimed Kaase fanboy...

[Pirate]

Knock it off.

Sorry, was that directed towards me, or the guy currently trying to hijack the site?

[1987cp]

Who's hijacking? I like learning new things about cylinder heads, like correcting my ignorance of the fact that the AFR heads were based on a head that was only "good" as compared to an E6 or D8OE.