Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Handling, and how to improve it.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Handling, and how to improve it.

    So, I already install KYB Gas-a-just shocks. Did wonders for the ride and handling on my 1987 Grand Marquis. Currently running the stock springs, and 86k miles have taken their toll. I can put like 100lbs in the trunk and it starts to squat. Currently I am running 15x6 wheels, so I know that greatly limits my current tire size choices. I'd like to eventually go to 15, 16, or 17x8 of some sort. But I have good tread on the tries that are on the wheels that came on the car, so I'd like to just drive with them until I find what I want.

    If anyone can point me in the direction of new springs with a MUCH stiffer spring rate so the care doesn't float and bounce so much, yet not so stiff that it feels like blasting through the yard on a lawnmower. I'd really like to also lower the car to where stock diameter tires are ever with the wheel well. So basically, stiffer springs that will achieve no wheel gap. I understand that this should be about an inch lower than stock ride height?

    Any and all help is appreciated. My other daily is a Miata that is set up for handling and have like 3 inches between the pavement and my subframe rails. 2.75 inches under the front bumper though. So, it doesn't make it over the speedbumps in the downtown area. I know this car won't handle like the Miata, ever, but I'd like to make it better/more enjoyable and more functional/stylish all in one go.

    #2
    Yes, we have a sticky thread at the top of this forum "Suspension/Brakes FAQ". It's an easy read that will point you in whatever direction you want to go with your car. With that said, these are heavy cars; so a front spring with a 925# spring rate and a rear spring with a 225# spring rate isn't bad at all with these cars. I was surprised to find that the ride quality didn't suffer much. You will see approximately a 1.5"-2" drop with the Speedway springs listed in that thread. As far as eliminating wheel gap; you will need to drop the car a bit more (I don't know how much); at which point things like alignments become more of a concern. Read through the thread and let us know how you want to proceed. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum who have awesome rides; they will give you good advice.

    Comment


      #3
      Before you digest the wall of text and part numbers below know that lowering a car on its own doesn't yield any benefits and can easily become more of a hassle than it's worth.* You aren't changing the roll center angle (i.e. improving handling and steering response) because you're keeping the stock suspension and their mounting points. If you want to go really fast with a lowered car and do it right, you will want custom control arms, spindles, and tie rods. Coil-overs or custom springs and shocks specifically tailored to work with everything else. Remember suspension is a team effort. This is why it gets super expensive to go all the way with a build when you start playing with things like ride height. Unless you're gung-ho about lowering and are willing to pay for it all it's not worth it.

      From how you describe the sensation whilst driving you have bad body mounts, bad suspension bushings and worn out coil springs. Very common on these cars! Nobody replaces the first two items and if by some miracle it was replaced by previous owners it's never with the correct material. You want custom delrin bushings for suspension parts that need a range of motion like control arms; delrin doesn't bind under hard cornering unlike polyurethane. I got quoted $1200 for a set on Ebyt, installation and all.** And yes there are aftermarket polyurethane bushings available for these cars but they are best used for things that need to stay put like body mounts and sway bar end links.

      Moog 8649 and 8652 coil springs, front and rear respectively, (if I recall correctly- they may have changed part number listings since I looked them up) are solid. That will alleviate the sloppiness and complement your monotube shocks nicely.

      You are on the right track with wider wheels and tires. 16 inch OEM wheels are plentiful. From somewhat bulky '98-'02 steel wheels to ultra light '92-'02 HPP alloys, you have options to run wider tires. Max front tire width on boxes is 255, rears is a little bit more but unless you're making tons of power you won't need wider than 255 out back. Staggered tires introduce understeer into the chassis and you can't rotate your tires with the "X" pattern as prescribed in the owners' manuals. If you want more front contact patch than 255, you will need custom wheels.

      The 16 inch wheels I mentioned are helpful for gaining clearance for '98-'02 front discs and '92-'97 rear discs. You will need to run a complete rear end out of a '91-'97 Town Car or '92-'97 Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis. You will gain wider rear track as well as all the hardware for rear disc brakes and the ADDCO 650 rear sway bar which is for '92-'97 cars. Very good bar! Don't remember all the parts off the top of my head but most can be purchased online or scavenged. Only thing with spotty availability is the '98-'02 spindles/steering knuckles. Regardless it's a good time to upgrade to stainless steel brake lines and check the fuel lines. Also a good time to upgrade to Moser 31 spline axles which you'd need anyway, see below. 28 spline stuff can be tricky to find.

      Obligatory parts list dump***
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...3-27-gear-set/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...lok-31-spline/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...c-install-kit/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...waybar-kit-92/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...t-shock-92-02/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...r-shock-92-02/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...m-bushing-set/
      https://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-...e-upgrade=none

      You will need new rear axles to run the linked 31 spline parts. Order a set from Moser, part #100008322. Thanks to BlackVic for the info there. Know that just a simple re-gearing will yield you more acceleration- a TracLok equipped 8.8 with 3.27 or 3.55 final drive helps immensely over stock.****

      *I have those aforementioned Speedway front lowering springs on Ebyt, and even that small amount of ride height change in the front means I can't run as much positive caster as ideal for my corner carving needs. Better than the sagging trashed coils Ebyt came with but that's not saying much.

      **I would be going that route next year but I'm going to run custom 16x11 or 17x11 wheels on Ebyt which means custom control arms and custom spindles. No sense in having the same job done twice! But if you aren't going down the rabbit hole of ultra wide wheels for a while custom delrin bushings in the correct areas is a worthwhile investment.

      ***There are things I'm missing like crush sleeve eliminator for easier ring gear & pinion install but this will get you started. I included the Bilsteins because KYB's quality is very inconsistent these days. I ran those same Gas-A-Justs on Ebyt and they were dead within 2 years of hard summer driving/corner carving. Others have gotten much longer out of them.

      ****Went from 2.73 open to 3.27 TracLok on my '89 and it felt a LOT better. Pulls out of corners with authority now. I expect similar results with your '87.
      Last edited by Hearsesrock427; 10-30-2020, 01:05 PM.
      '89 Grand Marquis "Ebyt", '85 Grand Marquis "Eva", '94 Caprice "Kira"
      '84 Town Car "Stacy", '79 New Yorker “Anita", '93 Town Car "Kelly"
      '80 Mark VI "Allie", '94 Grand Marquis coming June, '79 LTD-S "Oksana"

      Comment


        #4
        packman, I've seen you on here. I'll check out the sticky as advised. I scrolled over it lightly at about 2A.M. a couple nights ago. Didn't think to revisit it when I would be conscious enough for it to make sense.

        Hearsesrock427, Lots of good info. At the moment I don't want to dive down the full rabbit hole. As I have a few projects in front of this one. And as mentioned, Miata for corners, just gotta get the new sway bars on it and a better alignment. Still handles like it's on rail right now though.
        Current full teardown is a 1977 Plymouth Volare Premiere Wagon. 4 speed manual swap behind a built 318, one day will get a supercharger.

        So, I guess my goal is improvement of general feel/appearance more so than trying to race the car, until it's time comes. I've done body mounts on every Chevy truck that we dropped an LS in and gave the full suspension re-working, because if the whole body is off the frame you'd be insane not to. But I was never buying parts, just sticking them on when told to and getting paid to do it. I paid more attention to engine/drivetrain than I did suspension.

        I digress.

        TLDR; Maybe not eliminate wheels gap. I want to improve over stock on some worn out stuff, and improve on style if I can. It's a daily, not a race car, at least not yet. Still will read the sticky.

        Comment


          #5
          Believe me it gets expensive once you exhaust the common bolt ons/parts bin robbery. You go from spending a few hundred at a time to several thousand. Going all in is definitely not for everyone, haha. I just like going faster. In a car that is still incredibly comfortable and road trip worthy in spite of increasingly racecar inspired parts under the skin.

          Know that even with mild upgrades and not-trashed suspension, panthers drive great. If you have access to a lift and the like, that will definitely make things easier. Expect to cut at least half the body mounts out; they have a tendency to be super duper mega seized in place. To the point where even heating the bolts and soaking them in PB blaster doesn't work. You will need to make some custom shims for the Energy Suspension body mounts, otherwise shit won't line up or sit right or something. Sounds like you've got an interesting palette of old iron; feel free to post your GM, Mopar, and import build threads in The Dark Side subforum!
          Last edited by Hearsesrock427; 10-30-2020, 03:38 PM.
          '89 Grand Marquis "Ebyt", '85 Grand Marquis "Eva", '94 Caprice "Kira"
          '84 Town Car "Stacy", '79 New Yorker “Anita", '93 Town Car "Kelly"
          '80 Mark VI "Allie", '94 Grand Marquis coming June, '79 LTD-S "Oksana"

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Hearsesrock427 View Post
            Believe me it gets expensive once you exhaust the common bolt ons/parts bin robbery. You go from spending a few hundred at a time to several thousand. Going all in is definitely not for everyone, haha. I just like going faster. In a car that is still incredibly comfortable and road trip worthy in spite of increasingly racecar inspired parts under the skin.

            Know that even with mild upgrades and not-trashed suspension, panthers drive great. If you have access to a lift and the like, that will definitely make things easier. Expect to cut at least half the body mounts out; they have a tendency to be super duper mega seized in place. To the point where even heating the bolts and soaking them in PB blaster doesn't work. You will need to make some custom shims for the Energy Suspension body mounts, otherwise shit won't line up or sit right or something. Sounds like you've got an interesting palette of old iron; feel free to post your GM, Mopar, and import build threads in The Dark Side subforum!
            Oh, I do need to start posting a build thread I suppose. That would likely help me keep everything in one place better.

            I like my classics, my 1961 Falcon needs love at some point. I have whole fleet, but finally decided to do one at a time so things actually get done.

            Question about personal experience, if I read your build thread correctly, you've used both the Moog and the Speedway springs. What was the difference in your experience, which one is better and why?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by packman View Post
              Yes, we have a sticky thread at the top of this forum "Suspension/Brakes FAQ". It's an easy read that will point you in whatever direction you want to go with your car. With that said, these are heavy cars; so a front spring with a 925# spring rate and a rear spring with a 225# spring rate isn't bad at all with these cars. I was surprised to find that the ride quality didn't suffer much. You will see approximately a 1.5"-2" drop with the Speedway springs listed in that thread. As far as eliminating wheel gap; you will need to drop the car a bit more (I don't know how much); at which point things like alignments become more of a concern. Read through the thread and let us know how you want to proceed. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum who have awesome rides; they will give you good advice.
              So, what you're saying is I could likely go with the step heavier from that and it would still ride decent since the car is heavy. Do you believe that would not be too much, for now? Based on your experience.

              Comment


                #8
                It would be a subjective answer, but based on my experience, the 925# spring I installed made the car a bit more stable; especially on the highway; but not at all rough like I thought it would be. But that may have been other factors (cheap shocks, stock/ancient rubber bushings, etc....). I only discovered those issues when I rebuilt the front end and realized that my bushings were all crumbling. I also stepped up to Bilstein shocks, which firmed the ride up a bit. When I parked the car 4 years ago, I realized that my idler arm was riding on no bushing. So I replaced that when the engine came out. When I finally get the car back on the road, I would like to see what difference that makes. I also plan on doing the Bigger Big Brake swap (C5 calipers and GT500 rotors) sometime next year. I think I may be slipping down that steep slope with this car. LOL Hopefully I won't go as far as Hearsesrock427 suggested up above.

                Comment


                  #9
                  worn suspension parts make everything worse.

                  In stock form these usually have no rear sway bar and the small front bar. installing a rear bar and upgrading the front, even with stock springs can make a significant difference. Won't fix dead bushings, but it keeps the car much flatter in a turn.
                  86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                  5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                  91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                  1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                  Originally posted by phayzer5
                  I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Handling is soooo very subjective, so here's my thoughts. I have an '86 Crown Vic.

                    I come from Mustangs, Fox variants, Datsun/Nissan Z cars and other sporty-handling cars. I haven't owned a Miata, but I've driven them (and enjoyed, and almost owned). I vintage raced a FIAT X1/9 back in the 90s, until another driver decided to go straight instead of turn, and wrapped it around the front of his Mustang, then tried to peel it off with the tire wall and jersey barriers at Loudon/NHIS. Handling is important to me, over speed.

                    I bought this car as a DD so I have been approaching modifications with caution. I'm not the only one who drives it, although I drive it 90% of the time. My roommates use it as a backup car and a few times friends have used it for trips that required towing a small boat (around 2500lb total trailer load through the NH and Maine hills).

                    I installed the 925# Speedway front springs and I'm still trying to find rear springs I'm happy with. The 175#-14" springs felt soft to me and the Moog Cargo Coils for the sedan sagged too low. I am wondering if the Speedway springs are actually taller than ordered; I haven't removed them to check.

                    I tried the KYBs but found them a bit floaty; I changed to Bilsteins and they are much better. I should have known; even my F150 is on Bilsteins, lol.

                    For now I've got BFG Advantage T/A Sport all-seasons on the stock 15" turbine rims and they handle well enough for a DD (I have a set of 15" snowflake rims with Blizzak WS90s for winter use). When those wear out I'll swap to big brakes and 16" or 17" wheels.

                    It's not suspension, but I've got the Powerstop Z23 brake pads on police calipers right now; they stop pretty well. I wouldn't worry about the big brake conversion unless you are going to be driving very aggressively or pulling a trailer; mainly I'd like the ability to repeatedly stop a big load in heavy traffic. Just make sure it's all in good shape.

                    When the front end needs any work it will get the urethane bushings, a larger sway bar, and conversion to the newer spindles (prerequisite for big brakes; again, for towing in my case); when I swap in the rear axle (rear disc brakes; 3.55s instead of 2.73s) it will get the urethane bushings and a sway bar. If I still have lots of tread on my 15s, I'll be swapping to the 1994-era small brakes; I'm hoping the current front end will outlast the rubber. But that should show how non-urgent I feel the big brakes are versus the overall handling: good pads/rotors on the suspension you have is more important than the big brakes, until you have the ride sorted out.

                    At some point I will be doing the body mounts; mine are okay enough for now, and the car will want paint eventually so I was going to do them as part of a body/frame/underside overhaul in a year or two. JeffBoudah makes a set of body washer adapters to allow use of poly bushings in place of the stock mounts.

                    As a guy who has pretty much always had a manual shift car, it's weird to let the car shift for me. I keep thinking things*, but honestly seating for 6 has been handy more than once; and most of the time I'm driving on roads where shifting doesn't matter. I don't care for the AOD, but I don't care enough to change it unless it comes apart.

                    That's the important stuff I'm doing/have done to make this "my car". Your mileage will vary but hopefully that helps a bit.

                    *Edit: Things like, "I have a T5 in my storage unit..." and "I wonder how hard it would be to find a comfy set of bucket seats and center console in baby poop brown" and "is there a way to design a column shift for a T5?" and "if I get rid of the split bench seating, how badly will long trips with my girlfriend suffer?"...
                    Last edited by bgreywolf; 10-31-2020, 05:39 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You can keep the stock seats with the 5 speed swap. Does not get in the way at all.





                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by 87gtVIC; 11-01-2020, 06:57 PM.
                      ~David~

                      My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
                      My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

                      Originally posted by ootdega
                      My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

                      Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
                      But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

                      Originally posted by gadget73
                      my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




                      Comment


                        #12
                        You're on the right track. I put all new bushings, newer crown vic front suspensions, 925# front with half a coil cut, and 200# rear speedway springs, and Bilstein shocks on my car, and it handles very well. My tires are level with the wheel well tops, I like that look as well. I'm doing the body mounts next week, and at that point the limiting factors are the 15" wheels with massive sidewalls, and the bench seat that wont hold me in well enough. However I also have police sway bars and the HD frame that helps too...

                        Like some of the others said, if you can get bigger sway bars, do it, and replace the rear springs, those are easy things to do and you'll notice a big difference. The gas adjusts aren't bad, the Bilsteins are much nicer, although quite expensive. If you have the money and time you can do something similar to what I did, but its a lot of dedication
                        Last edited by Brown_Muscle; 11-01-2020, 11:19 AM.
                        -Phil

                        sigpic

                        +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

                        +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Brown_Muscle View Post
                          You're on the right track. I put all new bushings, newer crown vic front suspensions, 925# front with half a coil cut, and 200# rear speedway springs, and Bilstein shocks on my car, and it handles very well. My tires are level with the wheel well tops, I like that look as well. I'm doing the body mounts next week, and at that point the limiting factors are the 15" wheels with massive sidewalls, and the bench seat that wont hold me in well enough. However I also have police sway bars and the HD frame that helps too...

                          Like some of the others said, if you can get bigger sway bars, do it, and replace the rear springs, those are easy things to do and you'll notice a big difference. The gas adjusts aren't bad, the Bilsteins are much nicer, although quite expensive. If you have the money and time you can do something similar to what I did, but its a lot of dedication
                          As has been suggested, I will do bushings. But not right this moment. It will happen though, and sway bar(s) for sure. Honestly, I got gas-a-justs because of the price difference. And, just a daily that I'd like to make more fun as I go. Not yet the tear down/rebuild project.

                          You have any side shots of your car Brown_Muscle? I really don't want to cut springs at all, if I could just get the right rate in the right height to achieve that?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Totally understandable. I think you'd get a pretty good ride height without the cut- I simply did it because I originally thought I wanted the car perfectly level, but once I saw it, I realized I would prefer a rake. I could have ordered the 225# springs and gotten a similar, although slightly higher ride height.

                            If you go to this thread: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...ice-Car/page30
                            It's the last post on that page, 3 pictures
                            Last edited by Brown_Muscle; 11-02-2020, 04:17 PM.
                            -Phil

                            sigpic

                            +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

                            +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by 87gtVIC View Post
                              You can keep the stock seats with the 5 speed swap. Does not get in the way at all.





                              Oh, sweet manual swap. Glancing at the thread on The Brown Blog a little, what's your suspension setup?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X