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    Interesting tune up and starter situation

    Today I did a tune up.
    The spark plugs I bought would not go in. This happened on each one. The new were Autolite iradium and Autolite double platinium. I bought 2 sets. I tried each type in different holes but no luck. I cleaned the old plugs and put them back in. They were also Autolite 764, apperently the cheap ones. They went back in easily. Started the car, it ran fine. They are 6 years old.
    I then did an oil change.
    Started the car, ran fine.

    Then came back out 30 minutes later and when I started the car. The starter would not disengage. It kept spinning the engine even after the key was turned off and removed as well as the solenoid switch was unplugged.
    The only time the starter would stop was when I disconnected the battery.
    1990 Colony Park with a 90 GT motor and GT 40 heads.
    Any ideas?

    Thank you
    Mike
    90 Colony Park LS with GT 40 heads and intake. HO cam, 65 MM TB, 67 MM EGR spacer. Has a 75 MM Pro Flow mass air sensor. Borla XS mufflers. 3L55. Shift kit, 2000 stall Tq convertor...Bilstein shocks, front and rear sway bars.
    90 Colony Park LS 64,000 miles all original. 3L55 tow package....front and rear sway bars.
    91 Grand Marquis GS....HO motor..Bilstein shocks poly bushings and police swaybars. This one handles the best.
    70 Torino Squire with M code 351 Cleveland 3.00 has Magnaflow mufflers. Hidden headlights and power windows. All original

    #2
    What application did you buy the spark plugs for? The heads have something to do with the plug situation. There were multiple (2 that I know of) plug designs for 302s, relating to the threads and seat. I thought that was a mid 80s change though. If there was another later change (GT40 heads...) I didn't know about it.

    1990 introduced the PMGR starter with integral solenoid and relay. The starter has full battery +12V, unfused, 24/7. The fender-mounted relay sends 12V down to the second relay (solenoid) that is mounted on the starter. That is where the high-current switching happens.

    Important edit: it looks like 1990 Mustang 5.0 still used the direct drive (one wire) starter. In 1990, both starters are spec'd for Panther 5.0s, likely due to it being a partial model year change. You need to figure out what type of starter you actually have. If it's the direct-drive, the relay on the fender may have welded closed.

    If you had undone the starter wires from the starter relay on the fender, then put them back on "the traditional way", that may be why your starter is remaining energized. The big fat starter wire goes on the constant hot side, and the skinnier starter wire goes on the switched side. If the skinny wire is on the constant hot side, OR if the skinny AND fat wires are together on the switched side, you can get your current (no pun intended) problem.

    If the wiring was never touched, then it's possible the solenoid on the starter motor has seized/welded.
    Last edited by kishy; 02-11-2018, 09:00 PM.

    Current driver: Ranger
    Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
    | 88 TC | 91 GM
    Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
    | Junkyards

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by kishy View Post
      ...
      If the wiring was never touched, then it's possible the solenoid on the starter motor has seized/welded.
      That's what happened on The Ice Car almost two years ago, but that starter was under warranty. I took it in and told them what it was doing, got my replacement and don't recall them even testing it.
      When my starter was doing this I also had to disconnect the battery to get it to stop. The starter would stick as described in the OP about once a week until I replaced it a couple weeks later when it started doing it more consistently.
      This was the second replacement starter on a lifetime warranty. First one (original purchase) lasted 4 years, first replacement lasted 4 months before the sticking started, and the current one is almost two years old now.
      Vic

      ~ 1989 MGM LS Colony Park - Large Marge
      ~ 1998 MGM LS - new DD
      ~ 1991 MGM LS "The Scab"
      ~ 1991 MGM GS "The Ice Car"

      Comment


        #4
        Looks like the GT40 and P heads both take a Motorcraft SP413 (Autolite 764). Just means you got real heads and not junk boat anchors like came on it.

        My 90 (October 89) has the old school starter with just the one solenoid up on the fender. But as the others have said, definitely sounds like a solenoid issue. What exactly did you unplug on the solenoid?
        1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
        1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

        GMN Box Panther History
        Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
        Box Panther Production Numbers

        Comment


          #5
          When the relays weld, its often because the starter is dying. Late style starter should put no real load on it though, so it may be simple failure. Also not impossible its the solenoid on the starter itself. They can also weld together or fail. To isolate it you'd have to undo the small wire on the far side of the relay and hook the battery back up. if it cranks, its the starter. If it doesn't crank, connect the wire you pulled back to the relay. If it cranks, its the relay.


          if the new plugs are the same number as the old and don't fit, I'll vote for a junk batch. I usually stick to Motorcraft plugs anymore. Last batch of Autolite I got didn't work right. 302's also like plain old copper plugs, so save your money.
          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

          Originally posted by phayzer5
          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

          Comment


            #6
            The starter will physically fit both, but the Panthers got the new starter introduced partway through model year 90. If you can find two wires going to your starter/see two wire terminals on it, it's a gear reduction starter (the newer type). If there is only one wire, the big fat one, then it's direct drive (the old type).

            However, if you never removed the wires from the studs on the relay since the last time it worked, then you did not mix up the wires (because you did not take them off).

            If there is suspicion (as mentioned above) that a direct drive starter might be marginal, replace it with the newer type...they're considered better in pretty much all ways.

            Plugs need to match heads. It does not look like the GT 40 heads share plugs with the stock heads on the Mustang engine.

            Current driver: Ranger
            Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
            | 88 TC | 91 GM
            Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
            Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
            | Junkyards

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you Kishy.
              It is 96 Explorer heads.
              The starter is 10 -12 years old so I guess it's done it's Job well and time to rest.
              90 Colony Park LS with GT 40 heads and intake. HO cam, 65 MM TB, 67 MM EGR spacer. Has a 75 MM Pro Flow mass air sensor. Borla XS mufflers. 3L55. Shift kit, 2000 stall Tq convertor...Bilstein shocks, front and rear sway bars.
              90 Colony Park LS 64,000 miles all original. 3L55 tow package....front and rear sway bars.
              91 Grand Marquis GS....HO motor..Bilstein shocks poly bushings and police swaybars. This one handles the best.
              70 Torino Squire with M code 351 Cleveland 3.00 has Magnaflow mufflers. Hidden headlights and power windows. All original

              Comment


                #8
                So good news. I went out this morning and tapped on the starter solenoid on the fender (its a 3 months old Wells brand from NAPA). It came unstuck. Glad its not starter related underneath. I'm going to buy a Motorcraft solenoid switch and keep it in the car for the day it is needed. I'm also thinking about installing a kill switch too.

                Thank you all again.
                90 Colony Park LS with GT 40 heads and intake. HO cam, 65 MM TB, 67 MM EGR spacer. Has a 75 MM Pro Flow mass air sensor. Borla XS mufflers. 3L55. Shift kit, 2000 stall Tq convertor...Bilstein shocks, front and rear sway bars.
                90 Colony Park LS 64,000 miles all original. 3L55 tow package....front and rear sway bars.
                91 Grand Marquis GS....HO motor..Bilstein shocks poly bushings and police swaybars. This one handles the best.
                70 Torino Squire with M code 351 Cleveland 3.00 has Magnaflow mufflers. Hidden headlights and power windows. All original

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think you will have better luck with the Motorcraft solenoid versus the aftermarket imported stuff from the parts store. Search for a NOS one on Ebay.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MattDoscher View Post
                    I think you will have better luck with the Motorcraft solenoid versus the aftermarket imported stuff from the parts store. Search for a NOS one on Ebay.
                    Get yourself a 95 ford f250 diesel glow plug relay. It's identical to a starter solenoid, except it has beefier internal contacts and requires the use of an additional ground on the bottom pin of the solenoid. They're roughly the same price, and you'll probably never have to replace it again. I did that a couple years ago and no more issues with the starter hanging up.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by 86VickyLX View Post
                      glow plug relay
                      There is a reason why it's potentially not a great idea to use the wrong part as discussed here: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-starter-relay

                      What is the incidence rate of a failure due to the diode being absent? Presumably quite low, but Ford saw fit to retrofit one into an existing design for a reason.

                      Does the glow plug relay contain a diode of equal function? If so then it's a non-issue...if not, the above comes into play.

                      As a semantic aside: the part being discussed is a relay.
                      A solenoid is a coil that moves something by magnetism when energized.
                      The relay (as do most or all) consists of a solenoid which uses magnetism to close the circuit.
                      If the starter relay is called a "solenoid", then all ECM and fuel pump relays and so on should be called solenoids as well.
                      Ford didn't even call the thing a solenoid in its shop manuals...
                      Last edited by kishy; 02-12-2018, 02:41 PM.

                      Current driver: Ranger
                      Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                      | 88 TC | 91 GM
                      Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                      Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                      | Junkyards

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I would imagine since the PCM is the thing grounding the glow plug relay, I would imagine that there is diode suppression involved. Then again, I didn't look that much into it. I haven't had any issues, and I've had it in there for about 3 years now. And speaking of failures my car did have issues with frying ecms back when it had the original harness. Turned out there was some weird wiring present in the engine harness, and it used the old 60/70s starter relay/solenoid, and those definitely don't have diode suppression..

                        However, It's proper to call it either. As the definition of solenoid via dictionary is as such:

                        so·le·noid
                        ˈsōləˌnoid,ˈsäləˌnoid/
                        noun
                        noun: solenoid; plural noun: solenoids
                        • a cylindrical coil of wire acting as a magnet when carrying electric current.








                        It's like saying motors are electric only. And you're wrong for calling an engine a motor because it's not electric. Yet manufacturers call motor oil just that. And it goes in our engines.

                        If you look up starter relay it lists starter relays, and starter solenoids, and it's the same part number and everything.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Good point about the computer vs the glow plug relay...it's a fair assumption that the glow plug relay might include a diode then.

                          Agreed that it isn't "wrong" to call the starter relay a starter solenoid. Speaking about the device from the perspective of its function, though, aids clarity (even if not by much).

                          E.g. "I replaced the starter solenoid" on a gear reduction starter could refer to either part of the starter, or the relay on the fender, where if you say "I replaced the starter relay", there is no reason to assume anything other than the thing mounted on the fender (for our cars, anyway).

                          Current driver: Ranger
                          Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                          | 88 TC | 91 GM
                          Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                          Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                          | Junkyards

                          Comment


                            #14
                            My Continental has a starter solenoid. My Towncar has a starter relay. My Mark VII has one of each.
                            86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                            5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                            91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                            1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                            Originally posted by phayzer5
                            I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                            Comment


                              #15
                              For added security using the glow plug relay, just add a diode across the coil part. Something like a 1N4007 with the stripe towards the + side of the coil would probably sort it just fine and they are stupid cheap and robust as all get out. I would just mold the leads down the center isolation X and wrap the lead between a pair of washers.

                              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                              rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                              Originally posted by gadget73
                              ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                              Originally posted by dmccaig
                              Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

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