Help the n00b! 351w swap to '90 CV (Warning, MAMMOTH post)

[tehfade]

OK. I've been studying this for a few days now, but concrete information seems a little hard to find. Let me give you the background. My grandfather has a 1990 Crown Vic that has a seized engine, a 302. He will give it to me if I want it. My best friend has a 351w that he says is in running condition. The engine is injected, out of a truck, and has no accessories. I can buy that off him for cheap.

And cheap it must be. I have a grand total of $4000 to my name, and I need a running vehicle quickly to get to school.

Now I'm a real nub about this stuff. The most work I've ever done to a car was installing a shifter on a GTO. This is a big project, I know, but I figure I'll give it a shot.

So. From what I understand, all the brackets, the A/C, alternator, P/S, waterpump, pullies and belts are directly swappable between motors. The mounts are the same, the radiator hoses are the same, and the motor mounts are the same. The only problem I've read was clearance vs. the wiper box. I will also need an oil pan for an older factory-351 Vic that I can buy at Autozone. What about the flexplate? Will it mesh with the Vic's starter, or is the tooth count different? Is all this correct? Is there anything, no matter how small, regarding physically fitting the engine in, that I don't know about?

Now, as to making the engine run. I've heard, and this may or may not be true, that all the fuel-injection sensors will plug right into the 351. The 302's manifold will fit on the engine, but will not clear the hood. (I'm told that the inch of difference in deck height does NOT matter? True?) If I do swap the manifold and plug everything in, I'm told the engine will start right up and run. The computer will "learn the engine", and it will run fine. This sounds bogus to me, can anyone confirm or deny? Does anyone have information on making a 351 work with the Vic's fuel injection?

Overall, I'm not too concerned about fitting the engine physically in the car, but I am very concerned about getting it to run. Can anyone recommend some write-ups or articles on the subject?

Remember, I'm a n00b here! Sorry for the long rambling post!

[nitroracer]

Welcome aboard Buddy!

I am gathering up parts right now to swap a 351 into my 87' mercury, but I wouldn't recomned doing it if you don't have the time to prefect it. If you need something ASAP look into a mustang engine swap or something already running that you can modify.

The accessory brackets are not the same because the 351 is a wider engine, but the accessories them selves will bolt onto the 351 brackets.

Oil pan is definite, radiator should work, don't know about the engine mounts. Flexplate I think is the same but 351s and 302s have a different im-balance in the later years 50oz for the 302 and 28oz for the 351 if I remember correctly. Someone else can clarify all that.

Headers for the 302 should work.

Intake is where you will run into problems, the car upper will not bolt onto the truck lower. An adapter is made, buy once its all said and done your money would be better spent on an aftermarket intake. The computer in your car now will not be able to run the 351. Cars and trucks use a different injector firing system, and no computer exists for a car to run a 351. You can convert to mass air and then have it tuned to fit.

I have a ton of links at home I can send you or post. I'll try to do that later today.

Good luck with the project!

[Lincolnmania]

ok i read what i could lol
351 efi swap basics
block will bolt in
you will need 351 swap headers from bbk if you are using a mustang 5.0 h or x pipe
302 lower intake manifolds will not fit the 351w........my suggestion is a typhoon 351 upper and lower from ebay........the hood still may not close.....there has never to my knowledge been a 351w efi swap
wiring will work yes, but youre gonna have to modify a fuel rail.
you are probably going to need 24lb injectors and a mass air setup, this will require a mustang maf computer and cruise control stuff from a 86 model panther, if you want to retain cruise
you can get a 351 swap oil pan from summit made by ford, comes with a dipstick and tube......i'm not sure about flexplates, best to check part #'s betw a 302 and a 351w vic
feel free to ask any more questions, and welcome to gmn!
scott

[tehfade]

So from what you guys are saying, if I want injection, I need to convert to maf? What would that mean?

What I take it you are suggesting, is that I need the electronics from a Mustang 5.0 to run the 351? Just use the Mustang's sensors, and re-tune the computer for a larger motor?

lincolnmania, you say that the wiring will work. Can you please clarify?
Do you mean that the sensors on the 351 will talk to the Mustang's computer?
Do those sensors plug right in to the connectors on the Vic harness?
Does the wiring between the sensors and computer have to be tampered with?

If the connectors between the Vic harness and Mustang computer don't mesh but the needed wires are there, can I just re-terminate the harness with the connector from the Mustang? Or would I have
to ditch the Vic harness entirely and cannibalize that from a Mustang?

As you can tell, wiring scares me, LOL. I get the feeling if I don't do it right the first time, and it doesn't work, I might never find the problem! Whereas if, say, I get the wrong flexplate, it's fairly obvious what I did wrong. You know?

nitroracer: Those links would be wonderful! Also, can you elaborate on "different injector firing systems"?


Thanks for the welcome, too! I know some forums where if you join and make a first post like that, you get told to go pound sand! I know my questions are long and annoying to answer, but your help is HUGELY appreciated.

I WILL be going to the Boston Public Library at some point next week to hopefully get the Chilton's manual for the car with wiring diagrams, but if anyone knows of any diagrams on the 'Net, links would be very very good!

[DuceAnAHalf]

the power steering/alternator bracket is the same between the 302 and the 351, you just use the two other holes to attach it.


You will need a 351W flexplate. 28oz, a 82 and up 302 uses 50 oz. i learned this the hard way.

wiper box is not a problem with factory valve covers and a normal intake.

I cant help you on the wiring, i went carb'd with mine and did a standalone ignition to simplify wiring.

[mrltd]

The mustang computer works with the panther wiring, but you still need to do a MAF conversion, which is moving and adding a few pins around on the 60 pin connector.

You could in theory use a speed density mustang computer and have it tuned, but that costs a lot of money.

Hood clearance is a problem.

[gadget73]

The AC bracket is specific to a 351. You'll need to find someone with a 351 police car to get the bracket from. The stuff on the other side is not 351 specific, which is handy because its whats actually critical to driving the car.

The two injector firing systems are basically batch fire and sequential fire. Batch fire is what the trucks use, its got 2 injector drivers in the computer, and each driver is tied to 4 injectors. The banks alternately fire, it doesnt really matter where the engine is in the rotation cycle, the injectors will fire when the ECM determines its appropriate. Sequential fire has 8 drivers, one injector per. The injectors are fired only on the intake stroke of a particular cylinder, so basically the fuel goes straight into the cylinder instead of possibly pooling in the intake till the intake valve opens (batch fire does this). Cars use sequential fire. Its slightly better for fuel economy, emissions, and has some slight improvements in low speed drivability.

[Tiggie]

Dude go carb'd. $750 + engine and you'll have that sucker on the road easy.

[tehfade]

Actually, the more I think about it, that seems to be the way to go. I mean, since my last post in this thread, I have read a book on Ford fuel injection, and consulted the haynes and chilton's manuals for the vic and a fox-body Mustang....and all I learned was that trying to make the EFI work sounds like biting off more than I can chew....I mean, given that I could make all the wiring connect up right, the mustang computer is still gonna be for a 5.0, so it isn't going to run real well, right?

So now, does anyone have some good advice on going carbureted? Has anyone gotten the stock fuel pump to work with a carb, or will I need to replace it? Should I go with a mechanical fuel pump or electric? IIRC, a mechanical pump needs something called a "fuel pump eccentric" right? Where does that go?

Thanks again for the advice guys...I know I'm in off the deep end and well over my head here, so your help is appreciated more than you know...

[Nathan in MI]

If you're going with a carbureted setup, you might as well switch to a mechanical fuel pump. You could use the electric pump, but that requires buying a special bypass-style regulator, and those are very expensive.

To convert to a mechanical fuel pump, you'll need the pump itself (DUH), a timing cover that has the hole in it for the pump, and the fuel pump eccentric (you were right!). The fuel pump eccentric mounts directly on the front of the timing gear for the camshaft. So you'll need to take the timing cover off (and replace it with one from a carbureted car) and add that eccentric piece (also from a carbureted car). And as long as you're in there, you might as well install a new timing chain and gears.

[DarkKnight]

:-? Question mang, why not just go with a 302 efi/carb From a near by junkyard? or find a shop near you that does them. And find out how much one is installed... Thats what i would do.. Lot less time consuming.. Actualy thats what im realy thinking about doing..


And seems a lot less time consuming/costly theres a shop about 60 - 70 milles from me that states prices around 700 - 1200 for 302's 351's

D.K.

[DuceAnAHalf]

You can go with an electric pump designed for carbd use, aeromotive makes a nice one that is internally regulated for $175 (summit p/n # AEI-11209) a Holley blue is $130, flows half of the aeromotive, is twice as loud, and lasts half as long.

[nitroracer]

Going carbed would be a lot simpler, the police crown vics came with factory 351s so the parts are all available in one form or another. You'll need to work on the fuel system - a few people here have done that conversion. Get a cable for the transmission line pressure and then the oil pan. Then the intake and carb are up to you.

[nitroracer]

Some links I have for you:

Lincolns on Line
Mass Air Conversion - http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00077.html
351 Swap - http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00144.html

EFI 351 Towncar

http://web.archive.org/web/20010611201805/shrapnel.gankish.net/87towncar/overview.html

[1987cp]

Hey, welcome to GMN. We love long posts from newbies.

I've not messed with 351s much, but I did convert an injected 302 to use
a carb, and as a separate operation, converted the donor car to run a
carb on an entirely fresh 302 motor I built last summer. Messing with a
351 should be very similar except for the issues everyone else has
already mentioned such as headers and accessory brackets. For a
flexplate, as long as it's got a 164 teeth and a 28-ounce imbalance, you
ought to be fine. I pulled the original 351 from my '79 and bolted my
'87 302 right in with its original flexplate and had no problems. Some
earlier flexplates had 157 teeth, and I really didn't want to mess with
starter problems.

Putting the carb on the injected engine was basically as easy as bolting
on a different intake manifold and drilling out the mounting boss for
the mechanical fuel pump, since mine already had a fuel-pump eccentric
and an otherwise correct front cover. The eccentric is just a little
round piece mounted off-center on the end of the camshaft to make the
lever on the fuel pump go up and down. I got a $17 LTD pump at
AutoZone, and so far it's done fine. My Cardomain pages (links below)
should have some discussion on my fuel system solutions for the
originally SEFI '87 wagon .... I got fancy and ordered up a correct
carb'd fuel tank from a place called GasTanksNow and made a 3/8" pickup
for it, but guys say you can leave the stock in-tank pump in place and
pull its plug, and just use that as a pickup if you like. Not sure on
old-style fuel-sender/pickup unit availbility for sedans, though - a
5/16" pickup should be fine for a ~200hp motor, and I've got an extra
new Ford pickup screen you can have for like 20 bucks.

On the top end, I experimented with an old two-barrel, but ended up
dropping the cash on a brand-new carburetor from Edelbrock (PN 1404, now
converted to 1403). It at least ran safely out of the box, and I had
time to study the manual and figure out how to lean it out. It worked
well enough I bought a similar one for the other car (PN 1406). On one
car (the '79) I made a bogus bracket to mount the throttle cable to the
new carb and intake, and it's worked okay and retains the cruise
control; on the other car (the '87) I went with throttle and TV cable
parts from Lokar; installing the throttle cable was a pain and I'm
without cruise for the time being, but otherwise it was really easy.
Check my links in my signature line for more question fodder.

Wait ... you know, I'm not sure anyone has addressed ignition. The
easiest solution for ignition on a carbureted car seems to be go get a
General Motors style HEI distributor. Basically an entire ignition
system in a can, I think most variants just need +12 Volts and a ground
if you don't use a tachometer - and if you're not picky, you could even run it from a toggle switch until you get the dash wiring sorted out. Summit
Racing sells HEI units for Fords from a company called Proform.
They're pricier than a replacement Duraspark distributor like the ones
I'm using, but it may save you a fun custom wiring exercise like I got
into. They seem to come only with a steel drive gear, so you should
make sure that's compatible with your cam.

For exhaust, the cheapest solution is obviously to find a way to reuse
your stock exhaust. Since the 351 is wider, I don't expect 302 exhaust
would bolt right up. If you get stock Mustang headers (they can usually
be found cheap on eBay and are easy to work with), a couple of adapters
and female ball flanges from the Walker Exhaust catalog should adapt
them to the stock pipes. The 2" ID female ball flange PN 41724 may be
too small, but the 2.25" (PN 41725) or 2.5" (PN 41726) ought to work
along with an appropriate adapter. They can be had from
www.RockAuto.com, but don't overlook trying at your local NAPA.

Hope that helps persuade y'all to join the rush back to the Stone Age
when cars were simple! Yay for carb'd Panthers!