4.6 vs 5.0

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My '67 Galaxie 500 tudor had a 289 with a/c and p/s.....and let me tell you it had more balls than my '86 MGM 302:-(

The 302 was first put in Ford trucks in 1969.

Before that they had a 360 and 390 V8 in 68

Before that, a 352 in 66

the biggest V8 they offered in 64 was the 292

in 63 they had the 332 and the 292.

From what I can find, the 302 was first produced in 1968.

Interestingly enough, the first small block V8 Ford ever put out was back in 1962, it was a 221 V8.

The 302 was a car engine before they ever put it in the truck.

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Never heard of a 351M???

Yes.........the 352 is an FE engine. A was alluding to the fact that all of Ford's 351 motors actually diaplace 352 cubic inches. The Ford 352 FE motor shares a 4" bore and 3.5" stroke with the 351W, 351M and 351C motors.
The 360 actually literally shares a block with the 390. Both have a 4.05" bore. The 360 shares a 3.5" stroke with the 352.

[knucklehead0202]

The 351/400M are related to the Cleveland series of engines. Basically just the shitty smog version of the Cleveland. With improvements in the aftermarket, imagine a 400 with good cleveland heads/cam/etc. Of course, people have been doing 408 clevelands now for awhile. Pretty badass.

Far as 4.6 vs 5.0, can't say where i stand on that one. I got rid of a 4.6 car in lieu of a 5.0 car because 1. I like low-end torque. 2. I like 4-eye cars. 3. I live in stupid California where EVERYTHING made after 1974 has to pass commie smog checks and newer OBDII vehicles require specific CARB E.O. numbers that have to be for the exact vehicle, not engine, to be legal. Older vehicles before OBDII had a great many E.O. numbers issues, mostly due to the aftermarket popularity of fox mustangs. This allows me to have a shitload more fun with a box than an aero or whale.

Now, far as straight reliability, i had way less trouble in the 6 years i had my '98 p71 than a few years of owning my 2 '90s and putting way less miles on them. Admittedly. i purchased my '98 with 79,000 miles. My first '90 had the odometer that stopped at 21,xxx, presumably 121,xxx, but who knows how long the odometer gears had been shit. Anyhow, my 2nd '90, that exhibited many signs of being lower mileage, also without a working odometer showing 58,xxx, which i honestly believe to be an under 100k car, also doesn't run as well and has had more problems than the others.

At a certain age, low mileage can be as dangerous as high mileage but when it comes to reliability, i've scarcely been completely let down by either of these powerplants. As a low-trouble, reliable engine, i'd actually throw my hat in the 4.6 ring. That being said, when/if things go wrong, for the most part the 5.0 is easier and cheaper to repair. Obviously this comes with exceptions, but in my personal experience, i'll relate the issues i had with one engine vs. the other.

My '98 crapped the intake manifold, broke at the heater-core fitting, so i had to get intake replaced. $750 i think was the butcher's bill. Then it shit the balancer. Bought a summit under-drive pulley kit(cheaper than replacement balancer from XXX auto parts) for $150, and another $150 or so to install. I personally dicked around with valve cover/grommet leaks multiple times, including putting a whole new set of valve covers on it. Call it +/- $200 in parts with multiple sets of gaskets/seals/grommets and a set of used valve covers. Then is shot a plug out of #7 cylinder, the bastard. End of the day, cost around $140 to get it time-serted. Otherwise, i drove that car a lot more than i've driven both my '90s. The air worked great, it got fantastic fuel economy and all i did was get the oil changed and put gas in the pile. I literally beat the shit out of this car just about every day i owned it. The repairs, while few, were fairly costly, but let's move on to the others.

So, my first box '90, 5hsu719. I base '90 lx with single exhaust and one-leg 3.08. Had bad idle surge when i got it. Chased vacuum leaks and replaced sensors, IAC, repaired/replaced/capped bad vacuum hoses/ports. This car ran pretty well actually, despite being old and poorly-maintained. I did full exhaust on it, which was on for a while. Right at the end, did edelbrock performer 5.0 heads(smog legal), 1.7 rockers, Typhoon Intake(almost smog legal), 65mm lightning TB/spacer, C&L 76mm MAF and 24# injectors(smog legal), and new radiator/fan clutch, etc. Car really woke up but lost some low-end. Gears were not great for it and also computer was taking time to get used to things. Car was wrecked with literally about 100-150 miles on the new setup, so it may have come straight and run better. All that junk cost me +/- $4k probably. Don't really remember.

Anyhow, that car got wrecked thanks to California being a sanctuary state. Found another '90 lx. This one is loaded; dual exhaust, K-code 3.55 limited slip, all the power and fancy shit. Anyhow, it seemed kinda loud when i got it. Found out the mufflers had holes in them. Not a reflection on the engine at all. This car, even with the better gears has always felt weaker than the other one. Also had the standard idle surge, thankfully i saved all my parts from the other car. Swapped out IAC, IAT, checked for vacuum leaks, was gonna replace plugs but they were pretty new and just cleaned them up and checked gaps. Back 2 were cruddy so installed new pcv screen/filter/valve. Still idle surges when cold, may need ECT sensor but the new one is on the good intake and i'm not changing it. Car shit the water pump about a month after i bought it. Don't even remember what that cost, think about $350. Valve covers leak, don't care much, except the smell annoys me and i have to add a quart of oil every few months or so. Engine has LoPo knocked when cold. Also don't give a shit about that really.

Anyhow, hard to quantify all the numbers, and i reckon you could probably expect to have more trouble with an older vehicle. Strictly in a "not fucking with it" scenario, i figure a 4.6 would go 2-300k without much fuckery, although your experience may vary. Having owned multiple 5.0 mustangs/capris, in addition to my 2 5.0 vics, they get pretty shady after 150,000. I won't say that there's not some that go a jillion miles, but the weird shit really starts happening frequently at a certain point. For me it was a matter of ability to screw with my car and a few weird fetishes. There are days i do miss my whale though.

[SVT98t]

My '67 Galaxie 500 tudor had a 289 with a/c and p/s.....and let me tell you it had more balls than my '86 MGM 302:-(

How many pages did you have to go back to find a thread from 13 years ago?? LOL


We all know the 4.6 is better anyways.


-ryan s.

[ClayBelt]

Seriously, why zombie this thread?

On that note though, I would take a 5.0 for performance purposes, and a later 4.6 for durability

[SVT98t]

I think it was ScottFest in 2013, we had a group dyno day and my family hauler 03 Town Car made more power than John's 86vicky with the 5.0.
All I know is that 215 hp is more than 205 hp.


-ryan s.

[gadget73]

And mine makes 225 with a 5.0.

The 80s were a bad time though the 70s were probably worse once emissions became a thing. Cars in stock form sucked. They started to suck less in the 90s and overall have generally gotten less suck-ass as time goes on in terms of performance and economy. A 60s 289 is probably a little more powerful than an 80s non-HO 302, but its probably on par with an HO.

[Tiggie]

Grandma’s 69 Fairlane fastback with the 302-2bbl, 3-speed, and 2.79 gear would be a close race with mom’s 87 LoPo/AOD/2.73 Tbird. Weights are similar. I think the manual may give the 69 a slight advantage, but I bet horsepower to the wheels is within 10.

Every time a new Toyota Corolla pulls away from me at a stoplight, without trying, while I’m driving the HO 94 Mustang and not babying it, I realize new car engines are superior in power to any stock Panther engine, or even an HO or even a naturally aspirated 4V 4.6 . But just try to find the radiators, air filters, or batteries, and you’ll be stumped by at least one of three on the new stuff.

[Grand1]

I have been slow to admit, but my wife's 2016 Honda Civic is amazing. Steering, accel, brake, fuel economy, without feeling whinnnnny on the road. No way I would touch it mechanically past pads and oil changes though.

Every 4.6 I have had.... got over. 200,000 miles.... That's buying them for $4,000 at under 85,000 miles. Yes, you pay more for gas, but in the long run, with taking care of it mechanically, it's one of the best economical transports out there.IHO

[DerekTheGreat]

And mine makes 225 with a 5.0.

The 80s were a bad time though the 70s were probably worse once emissions became a thing. Cars in stock form sucked. They started to suck less in the 90s and overall have generally gotten less suck-ass as time goes on in terms of performance and economy...

This is exactly why I prefer cars from the late 80's up until the late 90's depending on the model. But yeah, all cars sucked ass back then, even the imports with their touted Japanese build quality. I have yet to see "better" or "far superior" from all the foreign car reviews I've seen, and mind you, these were all done when the cars were new. Lots of vacuum tubes everywhere, HP/TQ ratings on par with everything else offered at the time. Interiors look shitty too. I try not to be biased but I am, yet do give credit where I see it, just haven't seen "superior."

...Every time a new Toyota Corolla pulls away from me at a stoplight, without trying, while I’m driving the HO 94 Mustang and not babying it, I realize new car engines are superior in power to any stock Panther engine, or even an HO or even a naturally aspirated 4V 4.6 . But just try to find the radiators, air filters, or batteries, and you’ll be stumped by at least one of three on the new stuff.

I have been slow to admit, but my wife's 2016 Honda Civic is amazing. Steering, accel, brake, fuel economy, without feeling whinnnnny on the road. No way I would touch it mechanically past pads and oil changes though...

I wouldn't be surprised if both of those achieve their acceleration through the use of 5+ speed automatics and 3.73+ final drive ratios. A quick inspection of the Hondoo says it either got a CVT (Cringe...) or a 6 speed manual. CVT's can be optimized so that the engine is always in it's power band when accelerating. And yep, it's got a 4.10 or something like that in it. Put an AOD behind that engine, 3.23's or worse and you'll have an anemic turd. A 2016 Honda Civic or [Adam]Corolla costs more than what I drive daily, most likely costs more to insure and plate every year too, so F gas mileage. WIth what I'm saving by not having a car payment or increased insurance & registration with my old single cam American stuff, I'm not even worried about it. Hell, I even dailied a 454 4 speed 1 ton truck at some point, still cheaper than blowing $400+ dollars a month on a lease or whatever. But like the Tigman said, just try and do your own maintenance on one of those things. A sea of plastic and polymer under the hood now too. None of that shit stands up to 30 years of heat cycles like metal alloys do and you need expensive scan tools to do diagnostic equipment, sometimes just even for a brake job. It's absurd. I am fearful for when I stop seeing my vintage of stuff in the junkyards as I do not want to move into driving cars from this millennium.

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I feel better now........my '86 MGM has "only" 88k miles on her, so I guess I am good to go.........but Shhhh, the original water pump is still on her....

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There are no zombies out there, just useful information that is discovered every day.....

Seriously, why zombie this thread?

On that note though, I would take a 5.0 for performance purposes, and a later 4.6 for durability

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Ryan, sometimes when the girlfriend will not "co-operate" a guy has to spend his time doing something!!!!......a good something is trolling past threads for interesting reading and information....

How many pages did you have to go back to find a thread from 13 years ago?? LOL


We all know the 4.6 is better anyways.


-ryan s.

[knucklehead0202]

This is exactly why I prefer cars from the late 80's up until the late 90's depending on the model. But yeah, all cars sucked ass back then, even the imports with their touted Japanese build quality. I have yet to see "better" or "far superior" from all the foreign car reviews I've seen, and mind you, these were all done when the cars were new. Lots of vacuum tubes everywhere, HP/TQ ratings on par with everything else offered at the time. Interiors look shitty too. I try not to be biased but I am, yet do give credit where I see it, just haven't seen "superior."




I wouldn't be surprised if both of those achieve their acceleration through the use of 5+ speed automatics and 3.73+ final drive ratios. A quick inspection of the Hondoo says it either got a CVT (Cringe...) or a 6 speed manual. CVT's can be optimized so that the engine is always in it's power band when accelerating. And yep, it's got a 4.10 or something like that in it. Put an AOD behind that engine, 3.23's or worse and you'll have an anemic turd. A 2016 Honda Civic or [Adam]Corolla costs more than what I drive daily, most likely costs more to insure and plate every year too, so F gas mileage. WIth what I'm saving by not having a car payment or increased insurance & registration with my old single cam American stuff, I'm not even worried about it. Hell, I even dailied a 454 4 speed 1 ton truck at some point, still cheaper than blowing $400+ dollars a month on a lease or whatever. But like the Tigman said, just try and do your own maintenance on one of those things. A sea of plastic and polymer under the hood now too. None of that shit stands up to 30 years of heat cycles like metal alloys do and you need expensive scan tools to do diagnostic equipment, sometimes just even for a brake job. It's absurd. I am fearful for when I stop seeing my vintage of stuff in the junkyards as I do not want to move into driving cars from this millennium.

Couldn't agree more. AND, i'm kinda impressed with how well my LoPo turd gets around. If the trans acted more like a 4r70 and i had about 100 more hp/tq i'd be very happy in this car. Oh, and no brake dive...

[DerekTheGreat]

There are no zombies out there, just useful information that is discovered every day.....

Yeah, and then when you don't search you get told to search because you started a thread which was already very similar to one which existed previously.... One of those, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't depending on who's shoes you're standing in.