Suspension setup for extreme handling

[Mercmarquis]

Alright gentlemen, call me crazy or ignorant but lets talk about what can be done to our cars to address the handling of these cars. I know we are able to add 03+ CV parts to our cars to help and the use of aftermarket springs and shocks. But what if we could fabricate new K members, control arms ect... and get more from our cars?

A little backround on me. I am an accomplished and certified welder and fabricator who recently opened my own welding repair and fabrication business. I have most of my own equipement as far as welders go, including a tig machine. I have access to everything else I would need, Bridgeports, lathes, brakes, shears, tube benders...you name it. I have a great ability to run these machines too. Things have been going decently I suppose, I have work and am keeping busy. I dont have alot of money but I guess thats how it goes. My race box has been kinda stalled due to the fact I cant insure the car affordably and has crappy tires so I dont want to drive it much. Im proud of the motor I built and how it runs but so many other things need improvement such as steering, rear axle and suspension.

I'd like to take a new approach to my car and make it more enjoyable to drive and able to do different events with the car rather than have a single purpose car. Drag racing is nice but I think I'd have much more fun taking the car to a road course or autocross events and competeing. Even more so I'd like to be able to get the car to some land speed racing events. I've looked into different mods i can do with junk yard vic parts but I've also noticed our cars are extremely simmilar to GM g body cars and even some A body stuff. Some differences exist, but wouldnt it be great if we could tap into all that aftermarket equipment or build one off componets?

I figured my first step will be caging the car, wouldnt be hard for me but I dont have a spot to work on the car indoors thats near a tube bender. That will come with time. Im thinking of a 12pt setup something along the lines of this...


Now im sorta new at front suspension setups, but I will be picking up literature on it, but im wondering what I can build to mimic something thats widely popular and performs excellent. I figure I can lop off the existing stock ford front end and build something that can go in its place. I think if even I can narrow the front to provide extra clearance for larger tires would be a good thing. I want to push my car as far as I can without going to a full tube frame. I want to have the car in the weeds, with some big rubber on it.

If anyone has any advice, pictures, or ideas of what can be done, I'd greatly appreciate it. Time to call out the engineering ability of me and our members.
I feel like there are so many ways to go that I dont know where to start. Who knows if I can build this stuff successfully I might be able to market them. But like I said, I got everything at my disposal besides a truck full of money. I think I can get around that with my time, ambition and labor tho, and thats something I have plenty of.

[1987cp]

All I know (or think I know?) is just what I've read in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine...5303472&sr=1-1

The author points out some ways to stiffen a chassis that I thought were pretty interesting, and claims to be able to build a completely custom IFS any time using some sort of universal hub and spindle arrangement .... it looked interesting and I really wouldn't mind seeing it attempted, but what's in this book is really the only info I have on that stuff.

[Pirate]

I have an excellent idea for the rear suspension that I wanted to try out on one of my prior wagons, but never got around to it.
Nobody's wanted to try it out yet, however.

PM me if you want to hear about it.

[Mercmarquis]

and claims to be able to build a completely custom IFS any time using some sort of universal hub and spindle arrangement ....

Thats what im after. My only concern is that the design is tailored for a dinky miata. Even though my car is gutted, its still hefty, I'll have to be sure that its strong enough to take the loads and abuse. Im thinking as long as the material is beefy enough and the chassis mounts are strong I'll be ok.

I'll see if the local Liberry has it, if not ill buy it....14 bucks for a book aint bad, I used to pay near 300 dollars for texts I would barely use in college. Another grand ripoff in the education world....

[mrltd]

The stock parts with a few tweaks can perform on par with most of todays sportcars. As mentioned, most GM parts can be used. Such as coilovers, springs, shocks. A few of the suspension bushings are the same also.

Using a cobra IRS would be easy enough. Use the center section, spindles, make control arms, and get custom axles made. Would be neat I guess, but doubt it would be very practical. A straight axle with a 5 link or TA would work just as well.

I would suggest just building a completely new chassis and use circle track/nascar suspension components.

stockcarproducts.com
speedwaymotors.com

There is absolutely NO market for custom parts for these cars-unless it's for donk suspension. Nobody with these cars have any money, there is one aftermarket performance part made specifically for the 79-91 panther. An underdrive pulley-which I'd be amazed if ASP has sold 20 in the last decade.

[87gtVIC]

Nobody with these cars have any money, there is one aftermarket performance part made specifically for the 79-91 panther. An underdrive pulley-which I'd be amazed if ASP has sold 20 in the last decade.

I wish they lowered that damn price.

[hav24wheel]

I've been tryin to find some 2 inch drop spindles for mine..(no luck so far) Pair that with some shorter, stiffer springs on all 4 corners, and some sway bars. i think the cornering would be alot better.

[mrltd]

I've been tryin to find some 2 inch drop spindles for mine..(no luck so far) Pair that with some shorter, stiffer springs on all 4 corners, and some sway bars. i think the cornering would be alot better.

NOBODY MAKES DROP SPINDLES! Stop wasting your time. No one will never make them.

Why don't you try reading the stickies!
http://grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?t=12138
http://grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?t=4073

[hav24wheel]

NOBODY MAKES DROP SPINDLES! Stop wasting your time. No one will never make them.

Why don't you try reading the stickies!
http://grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?t=12138
http://grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?t=4073

I have read the stickys. I was just bored and thought maybe, if Fat Man Fabrications makes them for a 50s era Crown Vic. i thought maybe some one would make them for ours.

[P72Ford]

Super radical suspension probably won't provide that much better handling than you can get from modifying stock style suspension.

I'd start with a big brake conversion, and make some solid bushings for the control arms. With some higher rate springs, and good adjustable shocks, it'd be pretty bulletproof. You could always go with a GM style coil over conversion though, and make the needed changes to make it work.

It'd be good to even up the weight distribution. Trunk mount battery is just a start. Could move the engine back and down a little. Probably have to relocate the front cross member, or better yet make a new tubular piece, and cut some more weight off the front. Relocating the front cross member, or making a new one would allow you to change the mounting location of the control arms as well. If you were using stock arms, you'd have to make the necessary changes to the upper mounts as well. Also, the more weight you remove from the highest parts of the car, the lower the CoG. Lexan windows? Recall, that the BMW M6 uses a Kevlar roof panel, which drops the CoG a significant (read inches)amount.

Also, it'd be a good idea to added a triangulated center cross member. Rather than using a simple 'straight across' transmission cross member, add a large x brace that would double as a mount for the transmission. Not only would this provide a mounting location for the back of the transmission, but it would be great for preventing frame racking.

Create a more substantial rearmost cross member, for behind the rear bumper. These cars have little to no rear frame support. A beefier brace would prevent the rear frame horns from deflecting aft of main rear cross member (over the rear axle).

If you make nice cage mounts, and tie the cage into the front and rear frame sections (in addition to the main section), it is going to be very rigid.

Rear suspension could go anyway. I like the idea of a long arm set up, with a torque arm (or center link), and a panhard. You could tie the long arms into the custom transmission cross member/ center frame brace. Panhard rod is easy, and a torque arm/ center arm should be no challenge for you.

You can whittle up solid body mounts in the lathe. However, if it is going to see any street duty, you may condier coating the mounts.

Since you are an accomplished welder, this should all end up looking pretty gnarly. Good luck; I for one will be interested to see what all happens.

[mrltd]

I have read the stickys. I was just bored and thought maybe, if Fat Man Fabrications makes them for a 50s era Crown Vic. i thought maybe some one would make them for ours.

These aren't 60 year old bombers and street rods, or particularly pretty. Nobody cares about them. The only parts you can find that are made are the one pulley and DONK parts.



I agree with P72Ford wholeheartedly.

What my car is cabable of with the current setup is incredible. It's all bolt on. If you push one of these cars hard you will find the mechanical limits of the parts. The rear axle is a very common failure point. I've gone through too many axles and bearings. I would also look into nascar (or just newer panther) style swaybars that have better mounting options.

Surprisingly, on the Bondurant panthers, they just put some stiffer front springs and a nascar swaybar and left the rear suspension completely stock...




And to the original post... 03+ parts won't work without TONS of modifications. the bolt on BRAKE parts, and few front suspension parts are 98-02 (and 92-97)

[Mercmarquis]

I would suggest just building a completely new chassis and use circle track/nascar suspension components.

stockcarproducts.com
speedwaymotors.com

I understand, my original idea was to cage the car. Weld in a couple strong holds right before the front rails and chop the front rails off. Then I would start from scratch. Complicated and a tad overwhelming I know. I feel like I can handle it tho. I want to make it worth while but if you're saying it isnt then whats the point?

Like you mentioned before about stock car/nascar suspension componets, does anyone posses good pictures or even better, dimensioned drawings of how they are setup? I've google imaged and looked through speedway's catalog online and all I got was a couple crappy pics and a headache. I've ordered some of speedway's catalogs to look at here. (I hate looking at online catalogs!) I'll also head over to my library and see what kind of books I can get to educate myself.

[Mercmarquis]

It'd be good to even up the weight distribution. Trunk mount battery is just a start. Could move the engine back and down a little. Probably have to relocate the front cross member, or better yet make a new tubular piece, and cut some more weight off the front. Relocating the front cross member, or making a new one would allow you to change the mounting location of the control arms as well. If you were using stock arms, you'd have to make the necessary changes to the upper mounts as well. Also, the more weight you remove from the highest parts of the car, the lower the CoG. Lexan windows? Recall, that the BMW M6 uses a Kevlar roof panel, which drops the CoG a significant (read inches)amount.

Also, it'd be a good idea to added a triangulated center cross member. Rather than using a simple 'straight across' transmission cross member, add a large x brace that would double as a mount for the transmission. Not only would this provide a mounting location for the back of the transmission, but it would be great for preventing frame racking.

Create a more substantial rearmost cross member, for behind the rear bumper. These cars have little to no rear frame support. A beefier brace would prevent the rear frame horns from deflecting aft of main rear cross member (over the rear axle).

If you make nice cage mounts, and tie the cage into the front and rear frame sections (in addition to the main section), it is going to be very rigid.

Rear suspension could go anyway. I like the idea of a long arm set up, with a torque arm (or center link), and a panhard. You could tie the long arms into the custom transmission cross member/ center frame brace. Panhard rod is easy, and a torque arm/ center arm should be no challenge for you.

You can whittle up solid body mounts in the lathe. However, if it is going to see any street duty, you may condier coating the mounts.

Since you are an accomplished welder, this should all end up looking pretty gnarly. Good luck; I for one will be interested to see what all happens.

Excellent, this is good stuff... Good to know we are thinking along the same lines. Doing the cage and a doing a rear most crossmember shouldnt be hard. I had already planned on cutting out the trunk and welding in a square tube cage for a fuel cell, then tinning it all back up.

Moving the engine back (if I decide to do it) will be the most time consuming along with the mounts of the front suspension. I have some ideas I will draw up as soon as I hop under the car to snap some pics.

[P72Ford]

Also, if you should decide to move the engine down, it is going to affect the driveline angle, which could be compenstated for with the rear suspension design. Just something I forgot to mention earlier, although it probably goes without saying.

[mrltd]

Moving the engine should be really simple in the scheme of things. Cuustom mounts are very simple for the engine, trans crossmember should be a custom structural member, and the trans mount is another simple mount.

The Spike show musclecar did a detailed buildup of an American Iron Mustang. This was back when Lou was hosting...He bult it from the ground up, frame, suspension and eveything.

The rear crossmember is a huge improvement to handling. I am using a generic off the shelf reinforcement (aka trailer hitch) and the improvement was incredible.


This is basically what you want...(for the frontend)

http://stockcarproducts.com/susp15.htm