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Thread: Cranks, no spark, coil not firing.

  1. #41
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    well, if you're getting the fuel pump relay to pull in, and you have power in but not power out, that sounds a lot like the relay being dead to me.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    Drivetrain: 5.0 HO, Explorer cam, FMS 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley, SuperCoupe stall converter

    Suspension: Bridgestone Protenza G019 225/60/16 on LSC turbines, 1 3/16" wagon front bar, 1" PI rear bar, cargo coils, KYB GR-2 front shocks, F150 rear air shocks, big front brakes, ES poly front suspension bushings, 00 CVPI steering box, ES poly body mounts, rear disc brakes

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks.

  2. #42
    I'm ridin on a dolphin, doing flips and shit cld783's Avatar
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    have you wiggled all the wiring while the key is on? sometimes you're wiring is good but the connections are bad..

    listen for the fuel pump to energize.
    Give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will promptly forget that he once did not know, and proceed to call anyone who asks, a n00b and flame them on the boards for being stupid.

  3. #43
    Mazda5: the Anti-Van! 1987cp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cld783 View Post
    have you wiggled all the wiring while the key is on? sometimes you're wiring is good but the connections are bad..

    Always worth considering - this is what was going on with our Cavalier last summer. Tweaking the connetors so they made better contact and whittling a makeshift bulkhead-connector grommet fixed the no-fuel-pumpey problem.
    2012 Mazda5 Touring | Click below to buy my cool '81 LTD:

  4. #44
    Fastest Box In South Jersey 86VickyLX's Avatar
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    relay or wiring issue. Either way, sounds like SEFI conversion time
    "Vicky" 1986 Ford LTD Crown Victoria LX ..................................."Blue" 1992 Mercury Grand Marquis LS

    Vicky
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    Mods So Far:
    5.0 HO Swap from 92 Cougar (Courtesy of Lincolnmania, Gadget73 and SVT98t), Electric Cooling Fan, Autodimming Mirror With Compass, Frankensteined but fully functional JBL Premium Sound System, HPP wheels, Working A/C, more mods to come soon!





  5. #45
    I post a lot... GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    IIRC, the relays in these cars have +12v with the key on and the EEC grounds the other side of it to turn it on.
    Owner of the only known 5 speed box wagon with a lift kit.
    AKA, Herkimer the Hillbilly SUV.



    Axle codes
    Open/Lock/Ratio #
    -----------------------
    G / H / 2.26
    B / C / 2.47
    8 / M / 2.73
    7 / - / 3.07
    Y / Z / 3.08
    4 / D / 3.42
    F / R / 3.45
    5 / E / 3.27
    6 / W / 3.73
    2 / K / 3.55
    A / - / 3.63
    J / - / 3.85

  6. #46
    Fastest Box In South Jersey 86VickyLX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    IIRC, the relays in these cars have +12v with the key on and the EEC grounds the other side of it to turn it on.
    That's correct. The computer controls the fuel pump relay's ground.
    "Vicky" 1986 Ford LTD Crown Victoria LX ..................................."Blue" 1992 Mercury Grand Marquis LS

    Vicky
    Too much stuff to list in my signature...
    Blue
    Mods So Far:
    5.0 HO Swap from 92 Cougar (Courtesy of Lincolnmania, Gadget73 and SVT98t), Electric Cooling Fan, Autodimming Mirror With Compass, Frankensteined but fully functional JBL Premium Sound System, HPP wheels, Working A/C, more mods to come soon!





  7. #47
    Go take a bath! Go milk your goat! Piece-it pete's Avatar
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    Heh heh heh sefi conversion time

    Thanks everyone for the help, I really appreciate it. I didn't have much time last night but did try grounding the EEC case. No luck.

    Is it a cosmic rule, that if you try something new to you it ends up being way more than expected?

    Anyway...

    I wish I knew more technical jargon so my explanations would be clearer. The reason the fuel pump relay doesn't come on is the trigger power isn't being grounded. I ground it, it works.

    I'm going to pull the 'puter, hopefully tonight, and start with continuity checks, the ground running to the back of the engine 1st.

    I've got an appointment set up with a highly rec'd technician 8-22, so I'm just gonna keep monkeying with it till then. Perhaps we'll figure it out first.

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by 85crownHPP View Post
    Everyone wants to drive a sofa down the road, they just don't know it yet.


    2003 Grand Marquis Ultimate, the "Stealth Bomber": http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-Grand-Marquis
    1991 S-10, 'Bulldog', 2.5l 5 speed: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...375#post698375
    1985 Town Car, 'Faded Glory', gone but not forgotten. 84/87/91/97 MGMs too.

  8. #48
    I love it when a plan comes together CheeseSteakJim's Avatar
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    Maybe this was already covered, but I don't remember reading it in the thread...

    When you turn the key, do you hear the fuel pump relay (on the left front fender for my '88) make an audible click? If there's no click, the relay isn't switching and needs to be replaced.


    I had this same problem and it ended up being a combination of a bad relay, and slightly damaged relay harness from when the car was crashed.

  9. #49
    Mazda5: the Anti-Van! 1987cp's Avatar
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    Question - if the problem really is the computer failing to turn on the pump, why not switch it separately? Rewire the relay to switch on with ignition hot, and then it won't matter what the computer thinks!


    Speaking of which, I assume you have verified normal operation other than the relay switching by temporarily wiring the fuel pump to a spare battery and running the engine that way? That was one of the key steps when I was troubleshooting the Cavalier - it was good to know for certain that everything worked except for getting power to the pump.
    Last edited by 1987cp; 08-09-2011 at 11:27 AM.
    2012 Mazda5 Touring | Click below to buy my cool '81 LTD:

  10. #50
    Go take a bath! Go milk your goat! Piece-it pete's Avatar
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    Cheese, I'm certain the relay is fine. The plugs were awful though, I can't believe the car ran at all! I changed them. I did check for continuity afterwards

    CP, I think (dangerous!) I've got that covered. When I jump the trigger power ground wire on the fuel pump relay it works. I have tried starting the car with the main relay power jumped at the plug (so fuel pump on, I heard it) - no spark from coil.

    To reiterate what it's doing: 1) fuel pump relay not getting a trigger power ground in 'run' or 'start'. 2) Power to both wires to the coil in 'run', but no power to either wire in 'start'. I believe they are related (but not sure).

    Btw cld I did wiggle the wiring, I wiggled the crap out of it. No clicky.

    I swear this kind of thing makes me want to scrap it. But I'm too heavily invested!

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by 85crownHPP View Post
    Everyone wants to drive a sofa down the road, they just don't know it yet.


    2003 Grand Marquis Ultimate, the "Stealth Bomber": http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-Grand-Marquis
    1991 S-10, 'Bulldog', 2.5l 5 speed: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...375#post698375
    1985 Town Car, 'Faded Glory', gone but not forgotten. 84/87/91/97 MGMs too.

  11. #51
    "The finder of unobtainium and other magical items" zoomie's Avatar
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    just for giggles humor me and swap the relays out and see what happens
    89 townie stock, repairs and upgrades on going..........

  12. #52
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    if there is no PIP signal, you will have no spark and the fuel pump will not energize with the motor rotating, though it ought to still prime when you hit the key. PIP is the pickup in the distributor. Is the ground wire attatched to the battery? theres a small gauge wire that should come out of the wiring harness to the - terminal of the battery. Thats the ECM ground. If you have no ground there, the ECM may not do anything. I'd also check the engine to body ground, just for S&G. When the grounds get goofy, everything gets goofy.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    Drivetrain: 5.0 HO, Explorer cam, FMS 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley, SuperCoupe stall converter

    Suspension: Bridgestone Protenza G019 225/60/16 on LSC turbines, 1 3/16" wagon front bar, 1" PI rear bar, cargo coils, KYB GR-2 front shocks, F150 rear air shocks, big front brakes, ES poly front suspension bushings, 00 CVPI steering box, ES poly body mounts, rear disc brakes

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks.

  13. #53
    not embarrassed on a scooter 85crownHPP's Avatar
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    If you tow it to scottfest, I'll do the SEFI conversion for free! You will either recoil in horror or joy as I remove all CFI parts and fling them into the trash.

  14. #54
    not embarrassed on a scooter 85crownHPP's Avatar
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    On a more serious note, as mentioned, definitely triple check the small ECM ground at the battery... where it goes into the terminal clamp AND at its little connector it has near the battery. Un-plug it and have a look. re-do it if there is any doubt.
    Also, hows the wiring at your EEC test connector look? I just looked at my EVTM, and the trigger ground for the fuel pump relay makes a stop at the EEC test connector before going right to the ECM. You should see two tan/light green wires going into the test connector at one terminal.
    Do you have proper power/ground at the ECM relay?

    The fact that you're getting no fuel relay trigger and no spark makes me think ECM... I wish I had another CFI ECM to send you!

  15. #55
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    thing is though, the ignition system works pretty much independent of the ECM. There are Mustang guys running a TFI ignition without an ECM. The only wiring to and from the computer is the PIP signal and the SPOUT. PIP is actually fed through the TFI module out to the computer so it knows how fast the motor is spinning. spout is just the advance signal. The ignition system will actually make spark with both of those wires lopped off completely.

    I don't have an 85 book, but my 91 ought to be basically the same. Its showing me power feeds to the coil from the ignition switch, then from the coil it goes to the TFI module on the red/light green, and it also feeds to the ECM power relay in order to pull it in. Do you have power at the red/light green at the ECM power relay? If not, and if you do have power at the coil, theres gotta be something in between those points. My vote would be either a break right at the ECM relay or right at the coil connector. Might also be worth unplugging the TFI module to see if you have power to the red/light green wire at that point. No power to the ignition module would make for no spark. The fact that moving stuff around at the coil had it running for a bit, then it quit tells me theres probably a broken wire in there.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    Drivetrain: 5.0 HO, Explorer cam, FMS 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley, SuperCoupe stall converter

    Suspension: Bridgestone Protenza G019 225/60/16 on LSC turbines, 1 3/16" wagon front bar, 1" PI rear bar, cargo coils, KYB GR-2 front shocks, F150 rear air shocks, big front brakes, ES poly front suspension bushings, 00 CVPI steering box, ES poly body mounts, rear disc brakes

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks.

  16. #56
    Go take a bath! Go milk your goat! Piece-it pete's Avatar
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    Very excellent. I was gonna work on it last night and fell asleep in the recliner after dinner

    As far as relays go I have bridged them both on the plugs as well as swapped them out (have spares from the JY). Just the same I will test them for operation and report.

    I have physically examined all ground end connections under the hood (rear engine grounds by feel). They appear clean & intact and the back ones feel whole. I checked the small ground on the battery from the terminal to past the connector and fusible link for continuity, A-OK.

    I have had connector problems before, so I have checked the heck out of all kinds of plugs, just about every one I could get to. I will double check continuity through all wires & connectors at the distributor, module, and coil though.

    I do have both main and trigger power at the ECM relay. I've checked the test port for continuity.

    Now I've got to get a hitch for the 03, get my free SEFI I've thought about picking up an extra ECM just to see. See how many parts I can throw at this thing! Lol. Seriously I wonder if I cooked anything when I blew those fusible links. Too bad I couldn't get it to SF.

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by 85crownHPP View Post
    Everyone wants to drive a sofa down the road, they just don't know it yet.


    2003 Grand Marquis Ultimate, the "Stealth Bomber": http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-Grand-Marquis
    1991 S-10, 'Bulldog', 2.5l 5 speed: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...375#post698375
    1985 Town Car, 'Faded Glory', gone but not forgotten. 84/87/91/97 MGMs too.

  17. #57
    not embarrassed on a scooter 85crownHPP's Avatar
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    That was just an offer of free labor, btw, lol

    but seriously, Id love to do another, and Im sure we could get it done in a couple days since we'll have lots of help!
    Getting all the parts last minute would be the challenge, but I think Scott still has a couple parts cars we could plunder.
    If nothing else, you can drive mine, and you'll be sold on doing a conversion

  18. #58
    Go take a bath! Go milk your goat! Piece-it pete's Avatar
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    Nope too late, free or nothin'.



    I'd love to but can't, got to leave the SO a running vehicle.

    Another site linked this:

    http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-foru...-mustangs.html

    Snipped in case the link dies down the road:

    Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

    A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.

    Revised 16-Jan-2011 to clarify testing the EEC relay in paragraph 1E .

    All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

    Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

    1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
    Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

    No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
    A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
    B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
    C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
    D.) Coil
    E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
    86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
    F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
    86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
    94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
    G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
    Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
    Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
    94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
    H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
    In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
    In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
    You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
    I.) Computer.
    J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
    K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.

    >_>_>_>_>_>_>

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by 85crownHPP View Post
    Everyone wants to drive a sofa down the road, they just don't know it yet.


    2003 Grand Marquis Ultimate, the "Stealth Bomber": http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-Grand-Marquis
    1991 S-10, 'Bulldog', 2.5l 5 speed: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...375#post698375
    1985 Town Car, 'Faded Glory', gone but not forgotten. 84/87/91/97 MGMs too.

  19. #59
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    fairly good, though I'm sure you realize parts locations will require a little interpretation with a CFI car. I like the fact that they list the MSD box as being more likely to shit out than any other ignition system part.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    Drivetrain: 5.0 HO, Explorer cam, FMS 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley, SuperCoupe stall converter

    Suspension: Bridgestone Protenza G019 225/60/16 on LSC turbines, 1 3/16" wagon front bar, 1" PI rear bar, cargo coils, KYB GR-2 front shocks, F150 rear air shocks, big front brakes, ES poly front suspension bushings, 00 CVPI steering box, ES poly body mounts, rear disc brakes

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks.

  20. #60
    Go take a bath! Go milk your goat! Piece-it pete's Avatar
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    I give up. My neighbor helped tow it to the garage last night - with 4' of chain

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by 85crownHPP View Post
    Everyone wants to drive a sofa down the road, they just don't know it yet.


    2003 Grand Marquis Ultimate, the "Stealth Bomber": http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-Grand-Marquis
    1991 S-10, 'Bulldog', 2.5l 5 speed: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...375#post698375
    1985 Town Car, 'Faded Glory', gone but not forgotten. 84/87/91/97 MGMs too.

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