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Anyone care to school an old noob on the 4r70w?

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    Anyone care to school an old noob on the 4r70w?

    Hoping to get some help understanding / diagnosing some issues re: the tranny in this new-to-me 2000 GM with 105,000 miles on her.
    I've been turning wrenches since before Woodstock (the first one!...) with my dad and doing most all my own maintenance on Jeeps, various dirtbikes and a few other vehicles for 40+ years. But I've no experience with Ford trannys. Indeed two things I've never done myself is set ring gears in a rear end and auto tranny work (other than shift kits and band adjustments on 727's) Always had my high school tranny guru to deal with that over the years. He seemed to live and breathe those things ever since we were kids. But he developed MS several years ago and while I still drop in on him from time to time, his mind drifts nowadays and the last 727 he did, had to be re-done. So I can't rely on him. I hate it, but it is what it is.

    Therefore I come looking for enlightenment.

    If I've read my door tags, VIN #, links and forums correctly I believe I've got this tranny:
    4R70W 4-speed Automatic (Sharonville) transmission with overdrive
    Ratios: 1st: 2.84:1 2nd: 1.55:1 3rd: 1.00:1 4th: 0.70:1 Rev: 2.23:1

    But most of the tech info or deep discussion I've seen on the site seems to involve mostly AOD transmissions. And I've noted discussion re: wide ratio upgrades to the AOD. so I wonder...
    1. Am I correct then that the 4r70w IS a wide ratio transmission?
    2. What advantage are the AOD guys looking for in the WR upgrade? Improved mileage or better performance? (been around enough to know that you RARELY get both.)

    But my main issue is that the Merc seems to shift "oddly".
    a. When COLD, and I leave the driveway, in sight of the ol' lady and ease it up to 30-35 very gently (as my hair color might suggest I would...lol) it seems to shift pretty normally. Rolls into 2nd, then into 3rd at about 30+ and then OD.
    b. It seems like once it's warmed up and driving in town, it can hang in 2nd gear around 30-35 for a pretty long time before it shifts into 3rd. When it does -it goes immediately into OD as well.
    c. Say it's warmed up and I give it some ...uh... robust pedal, as I start off from the last stop sign in town, into a 55mph zone, it will hang a L O N G time in 2nd. I'm talkin' 1/4 mile or more. Hangs there until I start to back off the throttle approaching 50mph and hold it steady... THEN finally it shifts stiffly to 3rd. and immediately into OD.
    d. If I'm cruising on a county road and want to pass some old fart doing the ridiculous 40 speed limit (now for me to call him an old fart I guess he'd have to be about 110...lol), and I give it some pedal.. it downshifts normally, I cruise up to 50+ as I go around him and ease off the pedal, again it hangs quite a long time in 2nd before it finally shifts somewhat hard into 3rd around 50-55 then immediately into OD.
    Now by hard, I mean kinda like I'm used to a Jeep shifting w/ a shift kit. Not a huge noise or anything but you'll feel a fair punch when it shifts. More so that I think it should. Considering that I'm pretty sure there is no shift kit in this puppy.
    e. I cannot generally "make" it shift into 3rd by popping off the pedal like I can do with a shift-kitted Jeep.

    So wondering what you all think about that behavior?

    Finally, I thought WTH I'll get the thing serviced and maybe that would solve the issue.
    So since I know nothing about the history of the vehicle really, I took it into a local shop that I use from time to time when I'm too busy or just don't want to fool with something (happening more and more these days) that requires a lot of force. I asked them to do a filter / fluid change with a power flush. They wouldn't do the power flush. Service Mgr said that since I don't have any idea what kind of maintenance schedule that tranny's been on or when it was last serviced, that if they do a power flush it would clean up alot of old varnish of course, and would loosen tolerances that have been building for years. Says that Ford trannys are particularly sensitive to this in his experience and he's had experience with his own POV, a Crown Vic that he flushed only to find it caused problems with the tranny afterward. He said he would not do that to my tranny at all and no reputable shop would considering I don't know its maintenance history. Said that if it HAD been flushed every 40-50k it would be OK to do.

    Opinions about his opinions?

    Ultimately he only changed fluid and filter.
    No change in the tranny behavior since that was done.
    I've checked codes (I have an OBD-II meter) and it shows clean.

    Wondering if there is anything "electronic" involved with the shifting issue? Perhaps RAM that needs purged or a computer that could be "retrained" to my heavier foot? (My last ticket in Nov. was for 60 in a 40 lol. I talked him down to 55. The one last March was 72 in a 55. I'm just glad the county and the state don't seem to share records! LOL But I'm an old dirtbiker who just recently admitted that he can't still do that crap and walk the next day. I was powersliding 40 years before they turned it into a sport [gymkhana] and just sold my KLX125 last year.)

    I appreciate very much any schooling that's offered to this old shadetree and that you've taken the time to consider these many questions and tolerate my chatty nature.
    2000 Grand Marquis
    2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee ...wifes...
    1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer ...6" lift, 33's, fun but a money pit...
    1987 Jeep Street Comanche #24 of 100 ...ya don't wanna ask unless you've got lots of time...

    #2
    the best things i can do is direct you to dirty dog perfromance, as he is a 4r70w spcialist, the othert things is to direct you to the link on tccoa that will help you understand your 4r better, they arnt too bad of a trans actually and with soem help, and new converter they can be pretty nice performers, there is a shiftkit available, one you can do at home which is the j-mod, the other you can also do at home is buy a shiftkit from dirty dog also comes with dvd howto install.
    link http://forums.tccoa.com/forumdisplay.php?f=990 alan is extremely knowledgeable and will be more than willing to answer yoru questions if you have any http://dirtydogperformance.com/ you can also talk to our resident guru ryan or svt98t as well... i know a little bit, but im afraid that my knowledge on transmisisons is limited to kinda rebuilding them and replacement. i can do the work but not explain it very well. ....yet
    89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks zoomie.
      The TCCOA forum looks like a pretty technical place to play!
      DirtyDog also a nice link.

      I'll let this ride a while and see if anyone else jumps in.
      I'd kinda like to avoid too much cross-posting as I end up getting confused on who said what. lol

      Drove the GM 40miles home tonight in an inch+ of sleet on the interstate.
      Why to people think these things handle badly on the slick stuff? She did fine. A slip here and some drift in a deep spot the plows had pushed into the lane I was in, but easing off the pedal and a light correction without panic and she straighened right up. Doesn't even have a decent snow tire on it. Does have 3 70lb sand bags in the trunk however. 1 over each wheel and 1 in the center of the well. Helps a lot. Plus she's got the Precisiontrac which I don's suppose helps a lot at 40mph in the slush. Unfortunately no trac-loc....yet.

      I'm just used to driving RWD's I guess. Never grew up driving FWD's so RWD handling isn't new to me. Actually have only ever driven one FWD for any length of time. I'm glad to have a RWD back in the stable instead. I thought it handled this slop pretty nicely.

      Thanks again for the links.
      2000 Grand Marquis
      2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee ...wifes...
      1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer ...6" lift, 33's, fun but a money pit...
      1987 Jeep Street Comanche #24 of 100 ...ya don't wanna ask unless you've got lots of time...

      Comment


        #4
        Hi!

        -ryan s.
        08 Lincoln Navigator L - 233k
        03 Mercury Marauder- 63k
        97 Ford Crown Victoria HPP "Tank of Justice III" (TOJ3) - 194k -->578.9 miles on ONE tank of gas<--
        94 BMW 325i Convertible - 135k
        73 VW Super Beetle "Bunky" <----- Wifey's
        12 Mini Cooper S - 90k <---- Wifey's
        Originally posted by pantera77
        Well my buddy tells him he knows exactly who loves buying shitboxes.

        Comment


          #5
          It almost sound like there's an issue with either the 2-3 shift accumulator(bad spring, seal, valve), or shift solinoid.
          Unfortunately, the shift solinoid is paired with the 1-2 solinoid.
          But fear not!
          It's easy to replace and only costs around $20.
          The W in 4R70W stands for "Wide Gears"
          I should probably respond at lunch while I'm at a computer, which would make this easier. Plus I have to go back to work now.
          More info coming!!!


          -ryan s.
          08 Lincoln Navigator L - 233k
          03 Mercury Marauder- 63k
          97 Ford Crown Victoria HPP "Tank of Justice III" (TOJ3) - 194k -->578.9 miles on ONE tank of gas<--
          94 BMW 325i Convertible - 135k
          73 VW Super Beetle "Bunky" <----- Wifey's
          12 Mini Cooper S - 90k <---- Wifey's
          Originally posted by pantera77
          Well my buddy tells him he knows exactly who loves buying shitboxes.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by JeepNut View Post
            Thanks zoomie.
            The TCCOA forum looks like a pretty technical place to play!
            DirtyDog also a nice link.

            I'll let this ride a while and see if anyone else jumps in.
            I'd kinda like to avoid too much cross-posting as I end up getting confused on who said what. lol

            Drove the GM 40miles home tonight in an inch+ of sleet on the interstate.
            Why to people think these things handle badly on the slick stuff? She did fine. A slip here and some drift in a deep spot the plows had pushed into the lane I was in, but easing off the pedal and a light correction without panic and she straighened right up. Doesn't even have a decent snow tire on it. Does have 3 70lb sand bags in the trunk however. 1 over each wheel and 1 in the center of the well. Helps a lot. Plus she's got the Precisiontrac which I don's suppose helps a lot at 40mph in the slush. Unfortunately no trac-loc....yet.

            I'm just used to driving RWD's I guess. Never grew up driving FWD's so RWD handling isn't new to me. Actually have only ever driven one FWD for any length of time. I'm glad to have a RWD back in the stable instead. I thought it handled this slop pretty nicely.

            Thanks again for the links.
            no problem, im happy to help a fellow panther out if i can.
            89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by SVT98t View Post
              It almost sound like there's an issue with either the 2-3 shift accumulator(bad spring, seal, valve), or shift solinoid.
              Unfortunately, the shift solinoid is paired with the 1-2 solinoid.
              But fear not!
              It's easy to replace and only costs around $20.
              -ryan s.
              I like the sound of that. I'm cheap too. AND easy....lol
              Waiting for details at your leisure. Got a few other things keeping me busy with it right now as well.
              2000 Grand Marquis
              2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee ...wifes...
              1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer ...6" lift, 33's, fun but a money pit...
              1987 Jeep Street Comanche #24 of 100 ...ya don't wanna ask unless you've got lots of time...

              Comment

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