My Cooling System Conundrum!

[BuffaloRider]

Long story short, the previous owners of my 1990 Grand Marquis left it neglected for long periods of time with water in the cooling system...

The first sign of the problem was when my heat stopped working (filthy coolant should have been the first sign, but what can I say, I was ignorant). I took it to my regular mechanic and he flushed the heater core and sent me on my way. By the time I got home the heat was barely working anymore. I took it back to my mechanic and he proceeded to flush the cooling system back and forth with a conventional garden hose, let it sit with cleaning solution, and more flushing, but every time he fills it up with coolant and lets the car run for a 20-30 minutes the heater core gets clogged up again with chunks of crap. He told me that he did all he could with the equipment he has but hasn't made any progress, because of this he didn't charge me. He made some suggestions and I did some research. To the best of my limited knowledge there are two ways of dealing with this (not including replacing EVERYTHING)
1) A machine that flushes the cooling system continually while filtering it
2) A pulsating power flush tool that uses compressed air and water, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6TVKwiINQ4

So I called around until I came across a shop called First Choice Auto Clinic that had one of the machines that runs it through a filter and they did a lot of work on classic cars... for reasons I won't mention here they will definitely NOT be my "first choice".
They pointed out that my coolant pump needed replaced (which was true) and thermostat (which I'm assuming was true) but they wanted to charge me $500 to put all new radiator and heater hoses. I knew that radiator hoses weren't rocket science and figured I could have someone else do the heater hoses if I can't so I decided to take that off the bill. So after flushing it with a regular hose and replacing the parts they hooked it up to the their machine. I made sure that they filled it back up with coolant and let it run for a while to insure that it didn't just clog back up. Heat worked great, there were no leaks, everything was fine... for about a day and a half.

They informed me prior to the work (and I already knew) that with a system this fucked it was going to take multiple flushes to get out all the crud that sunk to the bottom of the engine block and hoses, but I thought that it would have at least lasted through the weekend. The thing that really confuses me is that if the coolant is so fucked that it's clogging the heater core then wouldn't it be clogging my radiator too? Yet I have no problems with overheating. I don't appear to be loosing or leaking coolant either. I... don't know.

So here's my plan of action, unless I can gather any new information to apply to this conundrum, I'm ordering radiator hoses from rock auto right now that I will attempt to replace at my friends house (I live in an apt, no garden hose, and technically I'm not allowed to work on my car there) and I'm in the process of learning more about the heater hoses so I can replace as many of those as I can(however many there are) and have my mechanic replace the ones I can't (hopefully I can replace them all). THEN, after all the hoses are replaced I'm going to call some more places and try to find a shop that has a Gates PowerClean fush tool. THEN, I don't know, maybe get a new heater core... THEN...

If anyone has any suggestions that might help me, things to check or consider, or if you can link me to other threads with similar issues of either a neglected cooling system or hose replacements then I would be very very very grateful. Thank you!

[zoomie]

the hoses i can thinnk of off the top of my head, upper and lowere rad hose,the smaller two for the water pump and the two going to the heater core, which i also reccomend replacing, in addition i would suggest coolant flush from caterpillar. the worst hose youll encounter is the little one that has an odd angle on the water pump. if you have to replace the radiator i suggest genisis auto parts full on aluminum rad and is fairly cheap as radiators go. also depednding on time frame and monies i can help you with the heater core, or i know a few guys near you who might be able to help out.

[mcninetyone]

I've learned from experience that when a system is that dirty no amount of flushing is going to work. You may not have a heating problem now but I'll bet the radiator is partially clogged. And that as the weather gets warmer the heating problems will surface. Also, the best way to deal with the heater core is just to replace it. You'll probably end up replacing the radiator and all the hoses. As for the block, there may be a way to flush that once the heater core and radiator are not connected to the engine to catch all the crap.
just my

[tjc78]

The core and radiator are probably on their last legs at this point. All that corrosion built up is never good. Keep flushing it every couple weeks to limp it along, but to really fix it new hoses, rad and core will probably be a must. The core is really the only total bitch, while the others aren't nearly as time consuming.

[jaywish]

It seems like you have made a dent in the crud since it lasted a bit longer this time. Do not be surprised if you make some holes in the core or radiator as you get it more and more clean. Just to be sure,when you say there is no heat, did you check the hose going in and out of the core is very hot? That should get ho,t about up to 170 or so, even before the t stat opens.

[gadget73]

replace the heater core and the radiator, and while they are out pull the thermostat and flush through the engine. I expect there's about no chance in hell of getting the block drain plugs out, but if you could (and honestly I wouldn't even try this personally) that would help a lot. If you're brave, you can probably knock one of the core plugs (freeze plugs) out of each side in a spot where you can drive a new one in, and flush the garbage out of the block more completely.

[BuffaloRider]

Thank you all for your prompt responses.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to replace the heater core but that seems to be the only direction this road is heading. In hindsight I wish I would have taken the money I've thrown at the problem so far and just got a new heater core installed from the beginning and did all the "easier" work myself, but it looks like it'll be the other way around.

I damn near broke the bank with my trip to First Choice Auto Clinic so the rest of the money I spend on this will have to be for parts and any tools that I don't already have because this shit is going to get done one way or another. You have to understand that until I bought this car I've only had a basic understanding of motor vehicles, all of which I taught myself. I am a machinist by trade and am fairly mechanically inclined so it's not like I'm lost in the dark, but at the same time I am fully aware that I'm unfamiliar with doing this particular kind of work.

MY PLAN
I'll order the radiator hoses and heater hoses from RockAuto tonight and take the Bison out to my friends house to change those and maybe attempt to flush the heater core out myself with his garden hose. Then I'll have to wait for either the next paycheck or the tax return to grab a new radiator ( I'll look up the "genisis auto parts full on aluminum rad" zoomie suggested) and a heater core that I will do my best to install and also flush the engine block. By the time I start getting into that I will have hopefully overcome my social awkwardness enough to have enlisted the help of someone with more experience than myself. If that doesn't work, more flushing, and even if it does work, probably still some more flushing. In the mean time I will continue learning as much as I possibly can about the tasks at hand. I've got a Haynes manual and I've got this awesome fucking forum... I should be straight.

As for the hoses, I can locate the two small hoses attached to the water pump, the one long heater hose that connects to the heater core and runs down the left side of the engine, but the other one that goes back behind the engine looks tough to get to. Does that require taking off the upper intake manifold?

Gadget, forgive me for my ignorance but I'm not yet familiar with the "block drain plugs", nor do I know of the location of the freeze plugs. Can you reach them without removing the engine? It definitely sounds like it would help but if it's outside of my control it would probably be too pricey to pay a shop to do.

Zoomie, if I could meet a panther enthusiast and simply point at something and be like "What's that? What does it do? How do you repair/replace it?" that would help me tremendously.

Thanks

[johnunit]

These cars have MASSIVE grilles and bigger radiators than just about anything that came with a small block ford. A very, very clogged rad can still work just fine. Mine had no issues that I noticed with keeping it cool in 90+ degree heat even after my quick-fix stopleak (AKA clogshit up in a can) application, in stop and go traffic. Empty engine compartments, huge rad, fair sized fan, low compression, blah blah blah. The bottom line is these things tend to spring leaks in radiators before they overheat.


I know throwing parts at it is not what you want to do, but you gotta remember you're dealing with a car old enough to hold some university degrees. If you've got so much material that all this flushing hasn't helped, I'd tend to believe that's material that is now missing from various parts of the cooling system. In regards specifically to the water pump, rad, and heater core, that's probably left you with some very worn parts just from rotting from the inside out.

The waterpump, at this point, should be considered highly suspect. It's either the source of the problem or taking a HUGE amount of abuse from all this muck and will soon be a problem. The bad news is that the water pump studs are what most of the accessory bits tie in to on these cars, making it a relatively difficult job. The good news is that if you are willing to invest the time and money, you can turn replacing a water pump and thermostat (also probably near FUBAR from all the gunk) into cleaning up and refreshing basically everything that hangs off the front of the engine, and leave yourself with a much more presentable and reliable car.

[BuffaloRider]

I agree, the radiator will definitely have to be replaced.
But the thing is I already payed to have the water pump and thermostat replaced so now I'm just trying to replace the hoses, then the radiator and heater core before the new pump takes too much damage. I believe that I can accomplish at least that much, but the engine block.... that will be the only part of the cooling system that isn't new if I'm correct and I'm still trying to figure out if and/or how that is cleanable.

Thanks

[Ziggy]

When it comes to the water jackets in the block, I think about the only way you'll ever successfully flush the sediment from there is to completely teardown the motor, pull the freeze plugs, and hot tank the bare block. You may be able to work a flush out by bypassing the heater core and radiator, removing the thermostat, and hooking up to a power flush machine, but I have no idea whether you'll be successful in that endeavor.

[gadget73]

I fought a really screwed up cooling system for years on my car. When I got it, the radiator had been replaced but the coolant was already mud-like from the garbage in the motor. I drained, flushed, and refilled it daily for a couple weeks and it got fairly clean. I replaced the engine, completely flushed the radiator and heater core with a hose, installed all new hoses, and still, 9 years, 2 engine rebuilds, plus a radiator and heater core swap since I bought it, I can still get a bit of crap out of the system. The problem is I didn't replace all the parts at once, so some crap would lay in an old part and migrate around.

[BuffaloRider]

Damn, you guys are confirming all of my assumptions... Gadget, I'm afraid that I'll be telling the same story nine years from now. I can do each thing one at a time, but I just can't do it all at once, too expensive.

All I can really do is replace every part of the cooling system except for the engine itself, then continue various flushing procedures on a regular basis. Then, who knows, maybe I'll find a couple grand on the ground one day for an engine upgrade... doubt it, but anything's possible.

Well for the time being I think everything has been addressed. When it comes time for me to do the work I'll try to take video or at least pictures. Not only for other novices to use as a reference, but also to document my actions so if I fuck something up I'll know exactly when and where... Man, if I had a time machine I would go back to when the previous owners first put water in the cooling system and slow motion run towards them screaming "NOOOOOO!!!"

[zoomie]

http://parts.cat.com/parts/machine-f...---quick-flush use this for flushing out your system

[BuffaloRider]

Thanks, I was just going to take a shot in the dark with a random brand but I'll take your word on this. I feel a little better about my problem after reading about some other people having muddy sludge for coolant. A good reminder that things could always be worse.

I'm realizing that it would be best to flush out as much crud as I possibly can from the engine before replacing the radiator and heater core. If the gunk from the engine spreads I imagine it'll eventually put me back at square one, which seems almost inevitable but at the very least delayable. Then I came across this GANO COOLANT FILTER and I said "EUREKA!" ok i didn't really say eureka, but I thought it. If I could get one that fits the Grand Marquis then it should help keep my new radiator and heater core clean, right?

What say ye GMN experts?

[jaywish]

Looks interesting, I would say be prepared to clean the filter whenever the temp starts to climb.