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    Issues after BB swap

    I have bled and bled and bled the system and still feels like I have too much pedal travel and also it is SLOWWWW to engage heavy braking, there is a delay. Not happy with it, I installed a new Master but it is the 1989 style. Anyone else have this problem? Do I need to upgrade to the 1998-2002 Master cylinder and booster and prop valve to get the right engineering here? I'm thinking the 89 Master just doesn't have the guts for these 2 pot calipers. It should be eating gravel when I hit those puppies, but it's quite the opposite
    1989 Lincoln Town Car - "Anabelle" - Original block, .030 over with SpeedPro pistons, rods fitted with ARP hardware, FRPP +volume oil pump, GT-40 3bar heads, Crane 1.72 rockers, 89' Fox cam, 93' Cobra lower intake, Explorer upper and 65mm TB, 93' Lightning EGR spacer, K&N intake kit from a 4.0L Ranger, 19lb/hr injectors w/ 87 Mark VII ECM, cat/smog deletes, Big Brake conversion, 3.55 K-Code Trac-Lok/Disc brake rear axle, CVPI LCA's w/1" sway bar in rear, wagon front sway bar, BBK 2.5" off-road H-Pipe, Flowmaster super 40s, HPP wheels, 3G alternator w/LMR.com wiring kit, gear reduction starter conversion, Best 1/4 time: 16.0 @ 85mph.

    #2
    The prop valve on an 89 should be only on the rear brake line. Leave it be if you have drums back there. The bore and stroke of the later master cyl isn't any larger so it shouldn't be a problem of pushing enough juice to make the brakes work. I ran mine with the 86 master for a while and it worked OK, and Scott's stops on a dime with the 86 master and valving. It sounds like an air bubble in the front and you're stopping mostly on the back. Or maybe the caliper slides are stuck. Have you ever tried unmounting each of the calipers and moving it around to make sure there isn't an air bubble trapped in a spot that the bleeder valve won't let it escape?
    /
    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Originally posted by phayzer5
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

    Comment


      #3
      A friend of mine did the BB swap and just couldn't get the brakes to bleed right. I went over to help and found that he had mounted the calipers upside down.

      Comment


        #4
        I do have rear discs now. Ok good to know, I actually had 2 left calipers when I first did the swap, and yesterday I installed a brand new RF caliper with the bleeder screw on the top of the caliper like it's supposed to be to correct that problem and make sure there wasn't anymore air. I will bleed more with the calipers off this week and see what I can accomplish.

        One other thing I notice is that I hear a "whoosh" or rush of air during the first 1/3 of pedal travel coming from the booster, is that what you all hear as well? I think my car has always done that.
        1989 Lincoln Town Car - "Anabelle" - Original block, .030 over with SpeedPro pistons, rods fitted with ARP hardware, FRPP +volume oil pump, GT-40 3bar heads, Crane 1.72 rockers, 89' Fox cam, 93' Cobra lower intake, Explorer upper and 65mm TB, 93' Lightning EGR spacer, K&N intake kit from a 4.0L Ranger, 19lb/hr injectors w/ 87 Mark VII ECM, cat/smog deletes, Big Brake conversion, 3.55 K-Code Trac-Lok/Disc brake rear axle, CVPI LCA's w/1" sway bar in rear, wagon front sway bar, BBK 2.5" off-road H-Pipe, Flowmaster super 40s, HPP wheels, 3G alternator w/LMR.com wiring kit, gear reduction starter conversion, Best 1/4 time: 16.0 @ 85mph.

        Comment


          #5
          What do you have in the way of calipers, rotors, ins, and pads? New,used, rebuilt, specifics brand and type? Did you do the master at the same time. How is engine vacuum ?

          Does the master require bleeding ?
          03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
          02 SL500 Silver Arrow
          08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
          12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

          Comment


            #6
            whoosh of air,hmm sounds like air in the lines or poss a leak soemwhere, pedal should firm, not sqishey, when bleeding brakes did you bleed them in open air ir did you drop a line into a container of brake fluid..just some thuaghts
            89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....

            Comment


              #7
              The rod coming out of the brake booster and into the master cylinder should be ajustable. You might wanna try screwing it out a hair.
              1984 CV tudor 351W, 4bbl, 5-speed best time in the 1/8 8.39 at 80 with 1.80 60ft time.
              2006 P71, 1988 Bronco II, 1986 Baby LTD(5.0 & T5 swap in progress), 1976 16' Hobie Cat, 12' AquaFinn
              http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2651997 UPDATED 20100826
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              Comment


                #8
                The whoosh is fairly normal with the old style booster.

                If you have rear discs, I'd change the master out for a later one and use the later prop valve too. It will make sure your rear brakes don't wear out prematurely. The drum brake valving keeps some pressure on the rear lines to keep the wheel cylinders from folding in and leaking. This is not neccesary or wanted with disc brakes. Also, the later booster is an upgrade as far as assist goes. Smaller diameter, but dual diaphragm so it ends up with more surface area. When the brakes are all matched up right, it should stop on a dime and give change without excessive dive or any other nonsense.
                86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                Originally posted by phayzer5
                I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                  The whoosh is fairly normal with the old style booster.

                  If you have rear discs, I'd change the master out for a later one and use the later prop valve too. It will make sure your rear brakes don't wear out prematurely. The drum brake valving keeps some pressure on the rear lines to keep the wheel cylinders from folding in and leaking. This is not neccesary or wanted with disc brakes. Also, the later booster is an upgrade as far as assist goes. Smaller diameter, but dual diaphragm so it ends up with more surface area. When the brakes are all matched up right, it should stop on a dime and give change without excessive dive or any other nonsense.
                  OK cool, is the prop valve swap fairly straightforward? Does it go in the same place on the drivers side frame under the booster or in the rear in front of the gas tank?
                  1989 Lincoln Town Car - "Anabelle" - Original block, .030 over with SpeedPro pistons, rods fitted with ARP hardware, FRPP +volume oil pump, GT-40 3bar heads, Crane 1.72 rockers, 89' Fox cam, 93' Cobra lower intake, Explorer upper and 65mm TB, 93' Lightning EGR spacer, K&N intake kit from a 4.0L Ranger, 19lb/hr injectors w/ 87 Mark VII ECM, cat/smog deletes, Big Brake conversion, 3.55 K-Code Trac-Lok/Disc brake rear axle, CVPI LCA's w/1" sway bar in rear, wagon front sway bar, BBK 2.5" off-road H-Pipe, Flowmaster super 40s, HPP wheels, 3G alternator w/LMR.com wiring kit, gear reduction starter conversion, Best 1/4 time: 16.0 @ 85mph.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    There is no traditional proportioning vale in your car. What there is is a combination device for only the rear brakes. It performs two functions as gadget said. It keeps a certain low pressure on the rear brakes (residual pressure) and it restricts the flow to the rear brakes to keep the rears from locking up first and having the rear of the car come around on you. It is that big plug looking thing that the rear brake line screws into on the master.

                    With my 89 using the original master I gutted and drilled out the restrictor for the rear as my fronts were locking too early. I added an after market adjustable brake proportioning valve for the rear and it is pretty much all the way open and the brakes are balanced. Your master setup is NG for 4 wheel disks due to the residual pressure function.

                    All that said, I doubt increasing pressure to the rears and elimination the residual pressure issue will solve your problems and if not done right could give you a dangerous situation. Like oversteer while braking.
                    Last edited by jaywish; 03-13-2013, 01:40 AM.
                    03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                    02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                    08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                    12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jaywish View Post
                      Your master setup is NG for 4 wheel disks
                      NG meaning not good? I think there is air still in the lines really, it drives like there. I slam on the brakes and the car hardly flinches, and I have to continue to hold to build the pressure to get the car to stop fast. It's fine for daily driving, but under spirited driving/ emergency situations the car is stopping about the same as when it had the old setup.
                      1989 Lincoln Town Car - "Anabelle" - Original block, .030 over with SpeedPro pistons, rods fitted with ARP hardware, FRPP +volume oil pump, GT-40 3bar heads, Crane 1.72 rockers, 89' Fox cam, 93' Cobra lower intake, Explorer upper and 65mm TB, 93' Lightning EGR spacer, K&N intake kit from a 4.0L Ranger, 19lb/hr injectors w/ 87 Mark VII ECM, cat/smog deletes, Big Brake conversion, 3.55 K-Code Trac-Lok/Disc brake rear axle, CVPI LCA's w/1" sway bar in rear, wagon front sway bar, BBK 2.5" off-road H-Pipe, Flowmaster super 40s, HPP wheels, 3G alternator w/LMR.com wiring kit, gear reduction starter conversion, Best 1/4 time: 16.0 @ 85mph.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        yes NG= Not Good. As Gadget said it will cause premature wear on the rear pads. Maybe decrease rear performance due to the pads always being warm.
                        03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                        02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                        08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                        12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by jaywish View Post
                          yes NG= Not Good. As Gadget said it will cause premature wear on the rear pads. Maybe decrease rear performance due to the pads always being warm.
                          Ok, my 1989 Lincoln has the master with the all steel resevoir without the pressure control valve. Funny thing is the 1988 Crown Victoria I have at school has the master with the plastic resevoir and the pressure control valve threaded into the bore. So my pressure control valve/metering valve must be elsewhere on my lincoln.

                          Still unclear what the fix is here, whether it be hardware or just air in the lines. I'll keep bleeding and adjust the push-rod on the booster and see if I can get improvement.
                          1989 Lincoln Town Car - "Anabelle" - Original block, .030 over with SpeedPro pistons, rods fitted with ARP hardware, FRPP +volume oil pump, GT-40 3bar heads, Crane 1.72 rockers, 89' Fox cam, 93' Cobra lower intake, Explorer upper and 65mm TB, 93' Lightning EGR spacer, K&N intake kit from a 4.0L Ranger, 19lb/hr injectors w/ 87 Mark VII ECM, cat/smog deletes, Big Brake conversion, 3.55 K-Code Trac-Lok/Disc brake rear axle, CVPI LCA's w/1" sway bar in rear, wagon front sway bar, BBK 2.5" off-road H-Pipe, Flowmaster super 40s, HPP wheels, 3G alternator w/LMR.com wiring kit, gear reduction starter conversion, Best 1/4 time: 16.0 @ 85mph.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Interesting, I did not realize they still ran the older style MC on the town car. If you follow the lines out of the MC they should lead you to a restrictor/prop valve.

                            You did not install performance/race pads did you?

                            How much fluid did you use on the last bleeding attempt?
                            03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                            02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                            08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                            12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                            Comment


                              #15
                              ok, so you have the old style frame mounted valve. When that was removed from my car, the brake plumbing was changed to late style. The fronts use non-ABS hoses so it has the built-in T splitter in the driver's side hose. The rear brakes have the thread-in prop valve on the side of the master cylinder and thats it. There is now a connector down at the frame where the old prop valve lived. The old prop valve is gone entirely. At some point I need to tie the old brake switch wiring into the float switch on the new master cyl, but I keep forgetting to snatch the plug from a later car in the yard.

                              Anyway, the old style valving does 3 things. First its a proportioning valve to reduce pressure to the rear brakes. Second it is a residual valve to hold some pressure. Third, it serves to hold pressure off the front brakes until the rears get to some 150 psi or something. I think they call that the metering valve function. It also has a shuttle valve in it thats supposed to trip the brake warning light in the event of a leak and plug off the open port to some extent so the master doesn't run totally dry. Not all of them have both front and rear brake lines fed in though. the ones that only have the rear brake line connected are just a prop and residual valve.
                              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                              Originally posted by phayzer5
                              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                              Comment

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