More stroke, more displacement. Where to begin?

[sly]

probably, but I'd still like to see it done.

[pantera77]

A 100 shot should make those pistons nice and crispy

I remember some guy years ago was doing a spray and pray on a stock CFI tudor. I think he got it into the low 15's before it exploded.

[turbo2256b]

The newer 302 blocks from around 78 to current are too weak to handle a 100 HP shot bottom end is too weak. Add aditional goodies just make it worse. Older blocks handle it well. I dont realy like NOS pulled appart too many engines were it was used. Most hadent even blown up but found bent /twisted rods amoung other things.

[P72Ford]

Nitrous is fine if you do it right. But there is a learning curve; ask me how I know. I sprayed (150 kit) a budget built 350 (stock crank and rods, good hardware, double hump heads, flat tappet) for hundreds of passes, right from the starting line, and never genaded it.

A 351 is far more robust than a 302, and I would recommend going that route. I like the 289/302 for its ability to rev, but thats not really a consideration for such a big car, or one where reliability is a concern. AFR heads are good, but I honestly think Trick Flow are just as good, and you can save a few bucks. I wopuld not run the small (AFR165. TW170) heads on a 351, though. Go with the AFR 185, or TW 190. If you're doing a complete build, get a '94+ (F4) roller block. Much fewer concerns with engine break in, and long term camshaft reliability. If you're never going to spray it, you can probably get away with hyperutectic pistons. Don't cheap out on the engine hardware, balancing, etc, though. Whether you go OTS, or custom with thecamshaft, take the time to degree it, and set the valvtrain up the right way. You'd be amazed how much power can be left on the table.

[Mr.Blue]

How in the world i missed this trainwreck of a thread i'll never know but i'm glad i found it

[Bobcat]

Honestly. You're going to throw something like 8+ grand into a car and you will NEVER get that money back. In reality, you'll be spending 2500$ on a block, 1100$ on a rotating assembly, 1200$ on heads, 500-600$ on an upper and lower intake, then you'll have upwards of 1500$ in machine shop fees after they're all done building this. Plus you'll still need all the essentials, Water pump, timing cover, chain, cam, lifters, pushrods (Once length is measured), hoses, tune time (That'll probably cost you a good bit as well. Then after all this, you'll blow up your AOD, spend another 3k on a build C4 and proceed to destroy the 8.8 out back. Then you'll realize the car isn't for daily use and it'll become a track queen. All in all, I don't believe these big ideas are truly worth it. Yeah, spend all the money and build it right and be shit all poor after spending all this money. Or just build a solid engine and use a turbo or super charger kit and be overly happy with it and have done it for far less and have a daily driver that's reasonable and can roast away people without question. Sorry to be the debby downer but this whole idea is going to cost disgusting amounts and I'm not sure if you know that.

I just built my 351 by myself, after doing it three times; I can build a small block in three hours. If you plan to do this yourself, you're most likely going to screw up(I did, many times and got very lucky.); if you're just learning (As I was.) and it'll cost you, especially if you fuck up some of that aluminum block or destroy it from an improper break in. There's a lot of things to fuck up on an engine, though they're very simple once you know what you're doing; you can ruin one very quickly and easily if you don't. I rebuilt mine with the stock bottom end as a learning experience, I plan to put more money into in the future; seeing as I know what I'm doing now that I've learned from my mistakes. Even I plan to keep it mild and just run the stock displacement, though I may invest in a scat crank, rods and flat tops. I don't plan to run juice but I am desiring boost. I may just do that on the stock bottom end and it'll be another learning experience. Dunno, I loved doing it all and I used many many used parts (In all good condition) and still have probably 3k on drivetrain. Dunno what my car makes, don't really care all too much. I would like 275-300hp when we Dyno at SF and in the future I only plan for it to be around 400hp but have great drivability and be able to handle just as good. Building cars isn't cheap but it's fun. Just don't dig yourself in a hole that you're stuck in and have your project sit for long periods. Set realistic achievable goals and take it through steps. So you spend time driving it and not just working on it.

[Hearsesrock427]

@turbo2256b: I don't trust mis-matched engine parts. And seeing as how I'm spending way too much on this car anyway..... why not pay some more money up front for something that's lighter, AND that will get along nicely with the other aluminum parts. PLUS, I can skirt those annoying head bolt and head gasket breakage issues you commonly see with iron-aluminum mixed engines. I definitely won't be escaping the tuning issue though, simply because of how different the motor will be from the stock tune. I still like speed density, for its tried and true nature, and its perfectly linear throttle response, and easier maintenance. (Can pull up some threads and articles on mass air vs speed density that give some technical credence to my words.). 200+ hours of tuning was well within my estimates for tuning time.

@pantera77 and @turbo2256b: Yep. I'd rather just make more power from the motor..... I never liked the idea of having extra power that you have to keep re-juicing up.

@P72Ford: Earlier in the planning, I was considering hotter heads like the ones you mentioned. But there's two issues:

-I want to run on pump gas. Highest grade of straight gas around me is 91 octane. So in the interest of not needing to go to racetrack for fuel (there's like, none where I live!), and/or arranging for fuel delivery (cool idea, but it's more money down the drain that I could just sink into the car!).

-Where the power's made on those heads. Bigger heads almost always make less power down-low. Which is a problem, because I want my car's parts to work as a team, with the goal of maximum low-RPM thrust. The AFR 185s make power from 1500 to 6500. Which is good for what I want, but not perfect. Then there's the issue of smaller combustion chamber and higher compression. Makes more power, a LOT more. But it almost assuredly means no pump gas.

Ergo, I'm more than happy with taking an output cut for some more usable power. Especially when taking said output cut lets me run on pump gas. Less power, but more practical AND more usable power will always win in my book.

@Mr.Blue: I've got no problems with this. Even though I'm not going to spray or boost the '89, it's still good stuff to learn about. At the very least, understand the concepts governing them.

@Bobcat: It's going to be more than that by the time this is done. Throw in the speed density tuning, and we're into the five figures. but I really could care less if I don't get any of the money back- cars are money suckers, not money makers. Expecting to get money back that you spend on a car is like expecting not to get hit by train when you tie yourself to the tracks. It's moronic.

On a more technical note, it's funny you mention things like strengthening the AOD and running 31 spline axles..... Those were among the many things I was thinking about earlier. I was checking my build note in my phone, and saw notes about strengthening the AOD, as well as running 31 spline axles. Immediately thought "I'll need to get it done for the 408 build several years down the line..... and these will perform better than the stock junk I'm running in the meantime!" I came to the same conclusion you did- the time to strengthen a car is long, long, before you start stockpiling parts for a crazy motor build. Not during. And certainly not after! Haha.

And not to worry, you're not being a debbie downer- I was leaning quite hard in the "make reliable, then make super-quick" direction already. All you did was confirm my intuitions. Same thing applies to the costs- doing some rough calculations put me well into the five figures. So you definitely aren't being a debbie downer. You're being a trusted source for tips on how to build a reliable engine the right way the first time- from block to water pump.

Which reminds me, you mentioned some things that I didn't think about- specifically the water pump, timing chain, and timing cover. Are there ways to tell how much power a water pump will handle? I figure severe duty is hardier than light or medium duty, but these are approximations, not specific ranges of acceptable power ceilings.

[Bobcat]

Buy a good water pump that can cool the engine well. I'd stick with a belt driven one, since I really don't trust the electronic ones. If you're spending big money, buy good parts, don't cut corners.

I personally don't like 408s because people say they can be unreliable. That's pretty true since once you start making big power, daily driving reliability goes down. Many guys say that across various forums but I personally have no experience with it. But 650hp on a daily driver car (I'm assuming that's what you want) isn't really practical on a small block, carbed engine. That's if you do a carb, if you're just throwing money at it, then run something like atomic EFI and call it good. Plus you probably won't be running pump gas since I'm assuming you're gonna want like 10.5:1 - 11:1 compression and typical 93 isn't good for a true high compression motor. You'll most likely make most of your power in the higher range of RPMs as well, you'll probably have to choose a very hefty cam, and valvetrain combo. You could probably get away with 28 spline axles, though it wouldn't be ideal. But you would DEFIANTLY use a good after market diff cover.

[P72Ford]

@P72Ford: Earlier in the planning, I was considering hotter heads like the ones you mentioned. But there's two issues:

-I want to run on pump gas. Highest grade of straight gas around me is 91 octane. So in the interest of not needing to go to racetrack for fuel (there's like, none where I live!), and/or arranging for fuel delivery (cool idea, but it's more money down the drain that I could just sink into the car!).

-Where the power's made on those heads. Bigger heads almost always make less power down-low. Which is a problem, because I want my car's parts to work as a team, with the goal of maximum low-RPM thrust. The AFR 185s make power from 1500 to 6500. Which is good for what I want, but not perfect. Then there's the issue of smaller combustion chamber and higher compression. Makes more power, a LOT more. But it almost assuredly means no pump gas.

Ergo, I'm more than happy with taking an output cut for some more usable power. Especially when taking said output cut lets me run on pump gas. Less power, but more practical AND more usable power will always win in my book.

91 Octane will work fine with aluminum heads. Use the larger chamber heads, and get the right piston. You can calculate static compression ratio with chamber volume, and cylinder volume. Do not forget the compressed gasket thickness. If you do your homework, you can end up with an acceptable static ratio, and run on 87, if you want. Peoplke build low compression engines for boost all the time, using those exact same TF/ AFR heads.

Also, aluminum heads evacuate engine heat far better than iron. Which means that you can get away with more compression (and a hotter explosion), without the risk of detonation.

Additionally, the TF/ AFR heads will make power whereever you want, with the right camshaft. They may have larger runners, but they also have efficient runners (flowpath geometry). And if your camshaft is profiled right, you are going to move alot more air at any rpm you desire. Even if this was not the case... if you build an engine that makes power from 1500-6500, you can build your driveline to use that power. Gear it right, and use a converter which is going to optimize the engines power.

I would recommend doing some more homework on engine building.

If you use stock parts, you're going to be dissapointed. Do your homework, and make smart buys. Buy once, cry once.

[Mr.Blue]

Bobcat and P72 pretty much summed up what i'm thinking but i'll also say there is what i would call misinformation and old wives tales littered throughout this thread...........i dont like to get into internet arguing and am definitely not a know it all but some of the stuff posted is hilarious...........you just really need to figure out your short and long term goals with the car and what your realistic budget and time frame are............most importantly what kind of hot rodder/car guy are you? I personally dont function well with longterm downtime projects and like to have a bunch of different projects to tinker with and do 95% of the work myself, i've also owned various poweradder cars, different brands etc.....so i know my limitations so to speak (N/A street strip fords lol).............i also like to keep my driving/racing at 75% and my tinkering at 25% lol.............anyway keeping it fun is the key in my book...........

[turbo2256b]

Going with an aluminum block (cast iron would do) would go with the 351C mains, a set of Kasse P38 heads or maybe 351C heads, short oval track cam, forged pistons, light weight wristpins, corello rods, forged crank from moldex , to complement heads air flow would have to make my own sheet metal intake.

[Rassel90]

stroking to a 5.8 would be like 352 cid i believe even with head and intake you stretching the safety of the engine block even the mexican block probley dont have a high enough nickel content to really be a daily drive so your looking at low mile engine dat gonna cost you more then getting a cheap fox body and doing half the work to it and it would be faster

[sick88tbird]

Everything has pretty much been covered, so I'll leave you with this real life story.

I worked with a guy for a little while who drove his uncle's full size Bronco in with a 408 stroker and sitting on 44's. It was a $6k short block with "touched up" E7 heads and a teeny tiny micro cam that might as well have been stock...stock truck intake and a tune. I watched this truck pull (tug of war)a 5.9 cummins after about a 2minute stalemate as each driver fought to maintain traction. That 408 ran like a diesel.

When I asked why he put a junk top end on a 6 grand short block, the kid told me his uncle was an automotive moron with more money than sense. That motor was well out of breath by 3500rpm. Still seemed like such a waste, even if it could light up the 44's.