More stroke, more displacement. Where to begin?

[lincolnlarry]

Why not stroke a 351 instead? But don't listen to me. I have very bad ideas!!!! That's how my 460 build turned into a 557.

[Bobcat]

I'd still just start out with a 351.. I mean, after you spend all that money on stroking it, you're still going to have to put in 800$+ in shop fees, to get the block honed, bored, decked, dipped and cam bearings. Then you'll still have to pay for all the little shit that comes along with building a motor, if you have a shop do it, it'll cost much more.

Trust me, I priced out parts only and that didn't account for when my ring expander (Cheap piece of shit) decided to un-expand whilst sliding the piston into the cylinder and break a ring. Since my motor is a metric, later model 351 and not standard, my rings were 70$ a set for stock diameter.

You're going to be way in the hole $$ wise on a 302 that still won't have the cubes that a stock 351 would...

May I ask, why are you so determined to use a stroker kit???

Why not stroke a 351 instead? But don't listen to me. I have very bad ideas!!!! That's how my 460 build turned into a 557.

Yeah.... Like how my 351w stock bottom end and stock GT40 heads with a HO cam, turned into a bit more. It was also supposed to look entirely stock and be black. ... Always next time.

[turbo2256b]

What I learned when Creamy was SEFI with ported DOOE heads using a 5.0 Victor EFI intake was at one point the fuel lines in a box are to small to feed enough fuel using 30# injectors and a 75mm TB. Even setting all the fuel functions in the 8 to 1 range would go lean around 3000 to 4000 RPM WOT caused me to blow a head gasket between that rpm looked like a forced induction engine blown head gasket. Posting a pic of the gasket in my boating forum were many use boosted motors severl ask (with out knowing it was NA) how much boost I WAS RUNNING. they then wanted to know WTF i DID TO THE ENGINE.
At that point decided it would be best to go aftermarket SEFI with a wide band would be best if I was to go that direction in the future. What I WOULD LIKE TO USE IS AROUND 8000.00 today and way out of my reach.
As for most aluminum headed Mustangs even stroked with 302s with lower gears lighter weights cant keep up with Creamy except in situations were they have more gears. Sooner or later I start catching up and pass them. Some of that has to do with most being limited to around 6150 RPM as moving above that is were aluminum heads start working but stock ECMs dont have powerful enough proocessors to compute fast enough much above that.
Most intakes wont even flow the amount of air a set of well ported E7 are capable of. Gadget is running a set of my ported E7s which realy need 25# injectors and a better intake.
Another in here had a set I did like Gadgets but with larger valves and carbed. He never got it tuned right and went wit ha lesser intake then a lesser carb each down grade went slower. Finaly ended up with a TB injection set up (dont know if that worked well) but car was last known up for sale.

[sly]

I would love to port the E6 heads and see what that would do.

[DerekTheGreat]

I'm assuming he means 302 -> 347 but if I'm reading this right he want's to do all this work and put the stock e6's and lopo cam back in. Congrats, you'll have a $3k+ bottom end that runs 16s.
More engine = more air. A lopo is already choked to shit, increasing displacement doesn't magically make it get more air.

Along the lines of what I was thinking: You've stroked the air pump but your restrictions/bottlenecks are still the same, peanut cam and no-flow cylinder heads & Intake.

[Bobcat]

What I learned when Creamy was SEFI with ported DOOE heads using a 5.0 Victor EFI intake was at one point the fuel lines in a box are to small to feed enough fuel using 30# injectors and a 75mm TB. Even setting all the fuel functions in the 8 to 1 range would go lean around 3000 to 4000 RPM WOT caused me to blow a head gasket between that rpm looked like a forced induction engine blown head gasket. Posting a pic of the gasket in my boating forum were many use boosted motors severl ask (with out knowing it was NA) how much boost I WAS RUNNING. they then wanted to know WTF i DID TO THE ENGINE.
At that point decided it would be best to go aftermarket SEFI with a wide band would be best if I was to go that direction in the future. What I WOULD LIKE TO USE IS AROUND 8000.00 today and way out of my reach.
As for most aluminum headed Mustangs even stroked with 302s with lower gears lighter weights cant keep up with Creamy except in situations were they have more gears. Sooner or later I start catching up and pass them. Some of that has to do with most being limited to around 6150 RPM as moving above that is were aluminum heads start working but stock ECMs dont have powerful enough proocessors to compute fast enough much above that.
Most intakes wont even flow the amount of air a set of well ported E7 are capable of. Gadget is running a set of my ported E7s which realy need 25# injectors and a better intake.
Another in here had a set I did like Gadgets but with larger valves and carbed. He never got it tuned right and went wit ha lesser intake then a lesser carb each down grade went slower. Finaly ended up with a TB injection set up (dont know if that worked well) but car was last known up for sale.

I hope to see you and creamy either at Scottfest or Northernfest, the car interests me alot.
Don't mean to steal OPs thunder here, carry on!

[Hearsesrock427]

Okay, read through everything. In order:

I don't think the truck intakes fit.

But a 351 with a lighting lower and Explorer upper should be fine if not damn close.
But ya, a SEFI 351 isn't hard at all....

They don't. Way, way, too tall.

I'd consider that if I was running off-the-shelf parts. But to make the most of the aftermarket heads and aftermarket cam, I've got to run an aftermarket intake- one that I'm unsure will fit properly. Anyone got the height of the Exploder upper, so I can compare? I plan on going the 351 route for one of my subsequent builds.

Honestly. The money you'll spend on a stroker kit, you can cut in half with a 351 rebuild. I just put a 351 in my coupe and it fits with NO issues. They came with em. I plan to goto SEFI in the future, after I have my carb experience and learn all about them. It seems foolish to me, to stroke a 302, when you can just get more stroke and cubes with a motor equally the size and will cost less..
All you'd need to find, is a 351 lower. The deck height isn't much more than a 302, it's only that the heads are farther apart. I don't see how you'd have any clearance problems, if you take that money from a stroker kit and buy a lower, used even. Not like they 'go bad'.

Sorry for rambling, trying to save yah some money and get you the best outcome.

After looking at the prices (almost $1000 for a quality kit, and that's before I get it worked on) and making some more calculations, it'd be foolish to do any stroking this year. I'll get more gain by doing the cam, heads, and intake. As gadget said, you'll make more power with HCI on stock displacement as opposed to a stroker with HC or HI.

TLDR: Stroking is off the table, until next year the earliest. That's one of those nice-to-have but not necessary go-fast things. It's just not worth pursuing this year.

And I know a 351 will drop in; any full size panther could be had with a 351 at some point in their lives (the fleet package LTD Crown Vics from '79 to '91, the '79-'82 Grand Marq police packages, and the '80-'81 Lincolns IIRC). But I'd rather not swap out a good working motor if I don't have to. That's my biggest peeve.

Why not stroke a 351 instead? But don't listen to me. I have very bad ideas!!!! That's how my 460 build turned into a 557.

Mostly my aversion to swapping out something that's working properly. I just don't see a point, unless you're stuck with a real boat anchor of a motor.

And you'd be surprised the good things that come out of supposedly "bad" ideas. If your Town Car 557 build was a "bad" idea, I can't imagine how epic a "good" idea of yours would be!

I'd still just start out with a 351.. I mean, after you spend all that money on stroking it, you're still going to have to put in 800$+ in shop fees, to get the block honed, bored, decked, dipped and cam bearings. Then you'll still have to pay for all the little shit that comes along with building a motor, if you have a shop do it, it'll cost much more.

Trust me, I priced out parts only and that didn't account for when my ring expander (Cheap piece of shit) decided to un-expand whilst sliding the piston into the cylinder and break a ring. Since my motor is a metric, later model 351 and not standard, my rings were 70$ a set for stock diameter.

You're going to be way in the hole $$ wise on a 302 that still won't have the cubes that a stock 351 would...

May I ask, why are you so determined to use a stroker kit???

Not after revising the scheduling of go-fast mods. The stroking is literally going to be the last thing I do to the motor. Which means I'll have thrown on the new cam, new heads, new intake, and a tune. Switching to a 351 at that point would be fiscal suicide- I'd have to get a new cam, some new heads and a new intake at the minimum. And get another tune on top of that. To be fair, you didn't know of this change in the build until today, and prior to today, I gave every indication that I'd still be looking at stroking. I just posted the parts list last night before I went to bed; I'm just looking through the replies today.

At that point, yeah. It's not just about cubes, though. I just want to see how much you can do with a lopo. I want get close to the cieling, but not too close.

I want to see how much it'll help a motor with heads, cam, and intake.

What I learned when Creamy was SEFI with ported DOOE heads using a 5.0 Victor EFI intake was at one point the fuel lines in a box are to small to feed enough fuel using 30# injectors and a 75mm TB. Even setting all the fuel functions in the 8 to 1 range would go lean around 3000 to 4000 RPM WOT caused me to blow a head gasket between that rpm looked like a forced induction engine blown head gasket. Posting a pic of the gasket in my boating forum were many use boosted motors severl ask (with out knowing it was NA) how much boost I WAS RUNNING. they then wanted to know WTF i DID TO THE ENGINE.
At that point decided it would be best to go aftermarket SEFI with a wide band would be best if I was to go that direction in the future. What I WOULD LIKE TO USE IS AROUND 8000.00 today and way out of my reach.
As for most aluminum headed Mustangs even stroked with 302s with lower gears lighter weights cant keep up with Creamy except in situations were they have more gears. Sooner or later I start catching up and pass them. Some of that has to do with most being limited to around 6150 RPM as moving above that is were aluminum heads start working but stock ECMs dont have powerful enough proocessors to compute fast enough much above that.
Most intakes wont even flow the amount of air a set of well ported E7 are capable of. Gadget is running a set of my ported E7s which realy need 25# injectors and a better intake.
Another in here had a set I did like Gadgets but with larger valves and carbed. He never got it tuned right and went wit ha lesser intake then a lesser carb each down grade went slower. Finaly ended up with a TB injection set up (dont know if that worked well) but car was last known up for sale.

Ported DOOE heads? I've never heard of those.... they sound like high-end off the shelf Ford cast parts. Are you saying aftermarket heads will have the same problem, but worse? If so, how much bigger do I need my fuel lines to be to alleviate this runing lean problem? I want this to be a rock-solid reliable build, and it's best to prevent things like inopportune leaning out as opposed to picking up the pieces after something borks. Should I start looking into speed-density MegaSquirt?

I didn't even know that. I knew Ford's EEC was limited in processing, but I didn't think it was THAT bad. No wonder why you don't see a lot of high RPM SEFI Windsors. The EEC just can't take it. I still like the idea of aluminum heads- the lighter weight and general improvement over stock seem like good enough reasons to buy them.

I would love to port the E6 heads and see what that would do.

Could be fun! They are a dime a dozen, so if something goes wrong during the porting, a new specimen is just one wrecking yard trip away..... and they're probably super cheap.

Along the lines of what I was thinking: You've stroked the air pump but your restrictions/bottlenecks are still the same, peanut cam and no-flow cylinder heads & Intake.

That's why I decided the stroking is coming last, at the very end. Cam, heads, and intake are all going first. Kill the restrictions before trying to pump more air.

I hope to see you and creamy either at Scottfest or Northernfest, the car interests me alot.
Don't mean to steal OPs thunder here, carry on!

Me too. I love the body colored bumpers, and the high standard of quality throughout. It's a true luxury coupe on 'roids. Much like the 557 Town Car. A luxury sedan on 'roids.

[turbo2256b]

C9 and DOOE heads some 2 bbl 351W heads up to D2s were the original 351w heads slightly bigger heads than the 302 heads after 72 351Ws used 302 heads except a few marine engines. GT40 AND p HEADS WERE A REDESIGN OF THE dooe HEADS. originaly the GT40s were for marine aplications. Soon after they were designed they went to use on Lightning trucks 351s with the tublar upper intakes. The GT40 LOWER AND TUBLAR INTAKE can be good for around 400 HP. Not sure about the intake used on the explorers with the GT40 lower and the cast upper. After inspecting the cast upper not to impressed with it.

Even building a 331 would lean more towards a set of ported GT40 heads not P heads. Probably go wit han original performer or more likely orig RPM SEFI intake and possibly Fords B cam if thats the one with 220/220 duration @.050 AND 498/498 LIFT. 65mm TB 25# injectors. You could use a 93 Cobra Mustang ECM and MAF. You would have to tweek the wiring going to the Oxy sensors if I remember correctly the automatic and manual trans are differnt the way they ground. Also there may be some wiring in the male plug in at the firewall to the ECM need added or changed. I ran one then addd a Tweecer to it for further mods when I WENT A bit wilder with the intake. if you can find a gt40 lower and a tublar GT40 upper it would work also but the tublar upper is rare and often pricy. This would require a 255 pump and fuel lines would be ok.

[Bobcat]

@OP
IF you went with a 351. Everything off a 289-302 fits. The 351 uses the HO firing order and not the Lopo. Nothing needs to be changed. I'm running a cam that came off a mustang, a JY bronco aftermarket intake and exploder heads. Most of which are designed for 302s. Personally. If you're going to pull a motor and rebuild it, why rebuild it again next year? Waste of parts and money. Seeing as the stroker kit would need everything new again and more shop time. Now if you plan to run your stock bottom end with no rebuild. It'll still be low compression and be a worn out Lopo. Waste of a bunch of aftermarket parts unless the motor is in good order.

Personally. I'd get a 351, rebuild it and use flat top Pistons. Then go for TW170s and a mild cam, like a TFS1 or maybe a Ford letter cam, like the E cam. It's just worth way more in the long run to do it right once. I tore out a relatively good running 88k 302 for a 351 with a stock bottom end, that I rebuilt. But if you /really/ want to use the 302, you'll spend more money with a sub par to the 351 outcome. Even after stroked. I'll help yah with anything I can, regardless. Just my true opinion. Don't see why'd you'd spend more money, just because it was a "good running motor" to start with.

Don't push too Much cam, without using different Pistons. To my knowledge the Lopo compression is 8.5:1? Which is pretty bad for performance. Wanna boost performance quick and easy? Buy heads that you can use in the future, alluminum aftermarket or GT heads thatre outfitted with good rockers and valve springs. If used heads, lap the valves.
You want a cam with some bottom end and not all top end, since most are made for light weight mustangs, where as our cars a big, heavy, land acnchors. Personally I think the HO cam isn't much compared to what you can get aftermarket. But anything is better than Lopo stock.

Or just fuck all this and buy a turbo.

- sent from iPhone, sorry for things repeated. Not all posts load.
-Logan

[packman]

Yah, take your time and get all the parts you need. That's what I did for my engine. I have a couple threads on here about mod'ing the intake and fuel pump. Since I have an aftermarket intake and a 1" spacer, I will be installing a hood scoop to make it comfortable under the hood. If you don't mind doing the mass air swap, that will be the only other thing needed. And the exhaust, but that's not too hard to do by you or a decent shop.

My hang-up is finding the space to do this work. Apartment is a no-go (obviously) and my parents place is no can do too. I have been searching for garage space to rent out for this work for a while. I knew this would be a challenge; but I didn't think it would be this hard. Bu I guess it's NJ, so.......

Packman

[Hearsesrock427]

Sorry for the late reply guys; been busy finalizing plans for this semester at school. Thank you all again for the help so far!

Quick refresh of the parts list:
Heads! http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=21_106
Cam! http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...csid=1602&sb=2
Intake! http://www.americanmuscle.com/edelbr...ldii-8695.html

This is definitely something that will take some time to accomplish- need to acquire a big stack of parts. At least one of you mentioned flat-top pistons when I was looking at stroking my 302. I want to stroke a 351 now. Any set of 351 stroker kits you guys reccomend? I will research flat top piston stroker kits for the 351 on my own, but I just wanted to see if there were any brands to buy or avoid before I dove in.

Also need a specific capacity for the higher rate fuel pump, and the right brand(s) to buy from. Ideas?

C9 and DOOE heads some 2 bbl 351W heads up to D2s were the original 351w heads slightly bigger heads than the 302 heads after 72 351Ws used 302 heads except a few marine engines. GT40 AND p HEADS WERE A REDESIGN OF THE dooe HEADS. originaly the GT40s were for marine aplications. Soon after they were designed they went to use on Lightning trucks 351s with the tublar upper intakes. The GT40 LOWER AND TUBLAR INTAKE can be good for around 400 HP. Not sure about the intake used on the explorers with the GT40 lower and the cast upper. After inspecting the cast upper not to impressed with it.

Even building a 331 would lean more towards a set of ported GT40 heads not P heads. Probably go wit han original performer or more likely orig RPM SEFI intake and possibly Fords B cam if thats the one with 220/220 duration @.050 AND 498/498 LIFT. 65mm TB 25# injectors. You could use a 93 Cobra Mustang ECM and MAF. You would have to tweek the wiring going to the Oxy sensors if I remember correctly the automatic and manual trans are differnt the way they ground. Also there may be some wiring in the male plug in at the firewall to the ECM need added or changed. I ran one then addd a Tweecer to it for further mods when I WENT A bit wilder with the intake. if you can find a gt40 lower and a tublar GT40 upper it would work also but the tublar upper is rare and often pricy. This would require a 255 pump and fuel lines would be ok.

Gotcha. So they were for the older 351 windsors. I recall reading about the pre '72 and post '72 head castings on an older thread here. I'm going with aftermarket intake; I shouldn't run into the problems associated with off-the-shelf intake plenums.

I'm not a fan of GT40P heads myself; spark plug angling and other fitment issues for a not-so-huge gain (compared to if one just ponied up and rocked aftermarket heads) turned me off to them. I'm going aftermarket heads, cam, and intake for the eventual SEFI 351 swap. I prefer the simplicity/easier maintenance of speed density than mass air. And given all the mods I'll be throwing at the car, I'd be leery of a MAF to be able to compensate for all the changes. You mentioned a higher capacity fuel pump- now that I think about it, I think I'll need one given all the go-fast aftermarket parts. Would a 255 pump be enough to satisfy fuel needs for my heads, cam, and intake setup?

@OP
IF you went with a 351. Everything off a 289-302 fits. The 351 uses the HO firing order and not the Lopo. Nothing needs to be changed. I'm running a cam that came off a mustang, a JY bronco aftermarket intake and exploder heads. Most of which are designed for 302s. Personally. If you're going to pull a motor and rebuild it, why rebuild it again next year? Waste of parts and money. Seeing as the stroker kit would need everything new again and more shop time. Now if you plan to run your stock bottom end with no rebuild. It'll still be low compression and be a worn out Lopo. Waste of a bunch of aftermarket parts unless the motor is in good order.

Personally. I'd get a 351, rebuild it and use flat top Pistons. Then go for TW170s and a mild cam, like a TFS1 or maybe a Ford letter cam, like the E cam. It's just worth way more in the long run to do it right once. I tore out a relatively good running 88k 302 for a 351 with a stock bottom end, that I rebuilt. But if you /really/ want to use the 302, you'll spend more money with a sub par to the 351 outcome. Even after stroked. I'll help yah with anything I can, regardless. Just my true opinion. Don't see why'd you'd spend more money, just because it was a "good running motor" to start with.

Don't push too Much cam, without using different Pistons. To my knowledge the Lopo compression is 8.5:1? Which is pretty bad for performance. Wanna boost performance quick and easy? Buy heads that you can use in the future, alluminum aftermarket or GT heads thatre outfitted with good rockers and valve springs. If used heads, lap the valves.
You want a cam with some bottom end and not all top end, since most are made for light weight mustangs, where as our cars a big, heavy, land acnchors. Personally I think the HO cam isn't much compared to what you can get aftermarket. But anything is better than Lopo stock.

Or just fuck all this and buy a turbo.

Okay, now I'm convinced a stroked 351 is the winner. The parts interchangability, the higher strength of the 351 stuffs (you mentioned the 351 block can take 600+ whp, which is superb. I want something that I can flog the living shit out of, without fear of breaking something. A stroked 302 would simply not be able to do this; the block would probably be dangerously close to its 400 whp limit with all these mods.) Doing it right the first time logic also works well with me, as you can see!

Seeing as how I'd probably just grab a SEFI 351 from a junked truck, I think a rebuild + stroker kit (might as well do it while we're there) would be a good idea. I'll start researching 351 stroker kits with flat top pistons in the meantime. Going to be rocking new aftermarket heads, so no need to lap the valves.

No worries; one of my goals is for the car to have tons of usable (low RPM!) power. Hence the cam I selected, which makes power from 1700 RPM to 6300 RPM. That's solid low and mid range punch. When coupled with the long tube headers, flat top pistons and the stroker kit, Ebyt will be the torque monster I always wanted her to be.

Ehh. It's simple in concept, and I'm sure I could score some good power gains. But there's a problem- I prefer a naturally aspirated exhaust note to a forced induction exhaust note. Ah well, still an interesting idea.

Yah, take your time and get all the parts you need. That's what I did for my engine. I have a couple threads on here about mod'ing the intake and fuel pump. Since I have an aftermarket intake and a 1" spacer, I will be installing a hood scoop to make it comfortable under the hood. If you don't mind doing the mass air swap, that will be the only other thing needed. And the exhaust, but that's not too hard to do by you or a decent shop.

My hang-up is finding the space to do this work. Apartment is a no-go (obviously) and my parents place is no can do too. I have been searching for garage space to rent out for this work for a while. I knew this would be a challenge; but I didn't think it would be this hard. Bu I guess it's NJ, so.......

Packman

At this rate, that's all but mandatory. Haha. I want to be absoutely sure this can be done all at once. I'll spend a couple years stockpiling parts, and once it's all there, I'll take it to Scott, or the trusted local speed shop, and leave em' to it.

Hood scoop: I really like the aircraft carrier flight deck style hood..... I'd rather not kill the simple looks with a hood scoop. I'd sooner invest in custom motor mounts (for lower mounting, so the Edelbrock intake will clear. May need to do this anyway, now that I think about it!) than use a hood scoop. I have yet to see a setup that looks good the '88+ GMs and LTD CVs.

Intake & fuel pump: I'll be running an aftermarket intake and some higher capacity fuel pump (not sure how high capacity I'll need yet); I doubt even a modded stock fuel pump could meet the demands of all the aforementioned go-fast parts.

MAF vs SD: Not a fan of mass air; I'd rather just get the SD EFI tuned. I would almost assuredly need a tune regardless of whether I went SD or MAF, so I might as well just enjoy simpler running/easier maintenance of SD.

[gadget73]

There isn't really any more complexity to mass air stuff. Its one more sensor and 4 wires. The trick is, few people seem to understand speed density so getting someone to tune it may be more difficult.

[Hearsesrock427]

I read that thread in OTB about the '91 Thunderbird..... and it got me to thinking. Aluminum heads over an iron block is a really bad idea, especially if I'm going to be flogging the snot out it. I need an aluminum block to go with the aluminum heads and aluminum intake. And come to think of it, I really like the idea of taking some 60+ pounds of dead weight off the lower nose area. More power + less weight = profit.

Ergo, I need a good aftermarket aluminum 351 block. I've read about the Ford Racing 351Z and the Dart 351 blocks, and both seem really good. Seeing as how they cost upwards of $2500 though, this will delay the 408W build more. Being rated to 1000 crank HP is a bit overkill- but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I don't think I'll be making more than 650 at the wheels when the 408 build is finally done. But that's still way more than I'd be willing to trust even an aftermarket 302 block to handle.

[turbo2256b]

Aluminum heads on a iron block isnt perfect thousands are doing it. Best would be an aluminum block with iron heads at least using aluminum and iron combo.

Mass air is a pain to tune with what your planing a aftermarket system using mass air would be best and easyest as speed density takes 200 hrs or better on a dyno to dial it in.

[1990LTD]

I would love to port the E6 heads and see what that would do.

Probably fuck all nothing. Lipstick on a pig.


I'm gonna pick up a set of used E7s, I know they're nothing special but they're still better than the E6s I currently have.


My plan for this summer is gears, spool, E7s, junkyard headers and nitrous. We'll see how quick I can get this big bastard down the 1/4 mile before I blow it up. More lipstick on a pig.


When it blows up it's 460 time.