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    Questions regarding "barge" body Lincolns....

    A good friend of mine is looking to sell his silver (with what appears to be a baby blue luster) slicktopped '78 Townie sometime this summer. See pictures of it here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/26046894@N05/

    I have a whole bunch of questions before I go beyond pondering this beast:
    -Any major problem areas for these cars?
    -Any way to prevent those problems?
    -Any water traps?
    -Costs of permanently fixing water traps?
    -Costs/ease of deleting opera windows, door moldings, cornering lights, lower door trim, and wheel well trim?
    -Costs/availability of stiffer springs, higher rate shocks, and lighter wheels?
    -Any aftermarket support for long tube headers and dual exhaust? Or will I need to get a custom set of each made?
    -Any good aftermarket heads, cams, and intakes for these big block Fords?
    -Costs of SEFI converting?

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Hearsesrock427; 01-30-2015, 12:08 AM. Reason: Added some context
    '89 Grand Marquis "Ebyt", '85 Grand Marquis "Eva", '94 Caprice "Kira"
    '84 Town Car "Stacy", '79 New Yorker “Anita", '93 Town Car "Kelly"
    '80 Mark VI "Allie", '94 Grand Marquis coming June, '79 LTD-S "Oksana"

    #2
    Plenty of support for big block Ford's. That's the easy part. The 460 and 400 are severely emissions choked in the late 70s. I would suppose that any police spec LTD parts would swap over, but don't ever expect a barge Lincoln to handle well. They are basically out of the 60s and drive floaty and disconnected from the road.

    They rust in the same spots as Panthers, the work you mention is both time consuming and expensive. There is a ton of trim (even on the tops of the fenders) that is all physically attached so there are tons of holes to fill.

    EFI? Buy a kit and have at it, I don't think there is anything stock you could retrofit except for maybe something off a truck (don't know when the 460 was used last, and what FI Ford used).

    I've owned a barge (79 Coupe w/400). I had custom duals bent up and drove it death, but never thought it could be anything but a comfy cruiser.
    2020 Volvo XC90 T6 Momentum (Ice White / Blonde)
    2022 Ram 1500 4x4 5.7 Etorque, Built to Serve Edition, (Granite Crystal / Black)
    Past Panthers
    1989 Grand Marquis LS (Cabernet/Grey), 1989 Lincoln Town Car SS (White/Blue), 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate (White/Black)

    Originally posted by Lincolnmania
    if its got tits or tires it's bound to give you trouble

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Hearsesrock427 View Post
      A good friend of mine is looking to sell his silver (with what appears to be a baby blue luster) slicktopped '78 Townie sometime this summer. See pictures of it here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/26046894@N05/

      I have a whole bunch of questions before I go beyond pondering this beast:
      -Any major problem areas for these cars?
      -Any way to prevent those problems?
      -Any water traps?
      -Costs of permanently fixing water traps?
      -Costs/ease of deleting opera windows, door moldings, cornering lights, lower door trim, and wheel well trim?
      -Costs/availability of stiffer springs, higher rate shocks, and lighter wheels?
      -Any aftermarket support for long tube headers and dual exhaust? Or will I need to get a custom set of each made?
      -Any good aftermarket heads, cams, and intakes for these big block Fords?
      -Costs of SEFI converting?

      Thanks in advance!
      Why on earth would you want to delte the opera windows, cornering lights and various trim??? Might as well buy a 70's LTD then! Personally, I wouldn't buy one of these without the opera windows and ect, although they do exist. By exist I mean without the opera windows, they all had cornering lights and stuff.
      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

      Comment


        #4
        Just looked at the pics... So you bought that '81 LTD from Michigan eh? Cool! Saw it on CL for a while. That looks to be a base townie, no cool turbine or dished wheels & no illuminated entry, hack at it!! lol
        1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
        1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

        Comment


          #5
          In order!

          Originally posted by tjc78 View Post
          Plenty of support for big block Ford's. That's the easy part. The 460 and 400 are severely emissions choked in the late 70s. I would suppose that any police spec LTD parts would swap over, but don't ever expect a barge Lincoln to handle well. They are basically out of the 60s and drive floaty and disconnected from the road.

          They rust in the same spots as Panthers, the work you mention is both time consuming and expensive. There is a ton of trim (even on the tops of the fenders) that is all physically attached so there are tons of holes to fill.

          EFI? Buy a kit and have at it, I don't think there is anything stock you could retrofit except for maybe something off a truck (don't know when the 460 was used last, and what FI Ford used).

          I've owned a barge (79 Coupe w/400). I had custom duals bent up and drove it death, but never thought it could be anything but a comfy cruiser.
          Oh wow, you're not kidding. Found TONS of nice hydraulic roller cams from Lunati- Grand1's '78 coupe build thread got me curious, and so I burned the midnight oil browsing their catalog! They've got some really nice torque cams for the BBFs. Among the first things I would do (after a tune-up, naturally) is gut the smog junk and AC stuff. Would cut down on the weight, create more room under the hood, etc. Swapping in police spec suspension parts sounds like a band-aid fix for the general floaty and disconnected nature of these cars. Still a vast improvement over stock I'm sure, but I want a car that's tight and dialed in, not wallowy and distant. Sounds like I'd need custom suspension parts to achieve that end.

          I can see what you mean now- it's a longer car with more trim than the panthers. I didn't even know about the top-of-the-fender trim holes..... that's another several hundred bucks of welding holes shut costs. And the '78 I linked to isn't perfect. Needs surface rust repair inside the wheel wells and around the rear window. Ugh. As if I didn't spend enough on body work already.

          After some research, I was thinking of MegaSquirt. It's an SD system, and allows for lots of fine-tuning. I don't think an off-the-shelf system (especially the computer) would be able to handle all the mods that would get done.

          Based on all the evidence so far, that's a reasonable conclusion. I think I'm better off just buying more box panthers (found a couple nice Grand Marqs for under $2000 locally on craigslist).... they're not as one-dimensional as their precursors. The ceiling for handling prowess is higher.

          Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
          Why on earth would you want to delte the opera windows, cornering lights and various trim??? Might as well buy a 70's LTD then! Personally, I wouldn't buy one of these without the opera windows and ect, although they do exist. By exist I mean without the opera windows, they all had cornering lights and stuff.
          Because they either look silly, provide a convenient place for water to get trapped (unless of course you seal it with urethane, as is the case with my '89 and its door moldings), or both. Perhaps I could have that friend find me an LTD, and I'd pay a finder's fee. I've looked high and low around my area for a nice barge LTD, but it seems like the only place I see them are demo derbies.

          The opera windowless variant was the Williamsburg trim IIRC. Still would need to delete tons of trim on that, but it'd be much saner than the '78.

          Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
          Just looked at the pics... So you bought that '81 LTD from Michigan eh? Cool! Saw it on CL for a while. That looks to be a base townie, no cool turbine or dished wheels & no illuminated entry, hack at it!! lol
          The link was to my friend Nate's Flickr. HE bought that sick '81 you mentioned, not me! haha. He sold me the '89 Grand Marquis that I own now. My flickr is here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123836203@N02/
          Last edited by Hearsesrock427; 01-30-2015, 02:43 PM. Reason: Added some context
          '89 Grand Marquis "Ebyt", '85 Grand Marquis "Eva", '94 Caprice "Kira"
          '84 Town Car "Stacy", '79 New Yorker “Anita", '93 Town Car "Kelly"
          '80 Mark VI "Allie", '94 Grand Marquis coming June, '79 LTD-S "Oksana"

          Comment


            #6
            The base model Continental, and the 79 Collectors Series also didn't have opera windows.
            2020 Volvo XC90 T6 Momentum (Ice White / Blonde)
            2022 Ram 1500 4x4 5.7 Etorque, Built to Serve Edition, (Granite Crystal / Black)
            Past Panthers
            1989 Grand Marquis LS (Cabernet/Grey), 1989 Lincoln Town Car SS (White/Blue), 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate (White/Black)

            Originally posted by Lincolnmania
            if its got tits or tires it's bound to give you trouble

            Comment


              #7
              I personally find the opera windows to be tacky. Although, as mentioned, there were not many of these that did not come with them. You either got a Collector's Series 1979 or you had to special order the car with them deleted in all other years.

              As for trouble spots, the rear bumper supports like to rot out and not much parts support available to fix it.

              I've heard two stories on the 400 some of these came with. Some say the engine is adequate, some say they are not up to the job of moving these heavy beasts. So, a 460 would probably be preferred over the other.

              The vinyl tops like to trap water below the rear window, but looks like that won't be a problem on this one.

              Car looks to have the Town Car scripts on the front fenders, which would mean it has the pillow-top interior.
              Nick


              Past: 1967 Continental convertible, 1987 TC Cartier, 1996 TC DAE & Signature, 2002 LS V8, 2006 Zephyr, 2010 MKZ AWD, and many more.....
              Current: 2010 F-150 Platinum Supercrew 4x4
              Wanted: 1967 or 1969 Contnential sedan
              Only in my dreams: A Continental Mark II

              Comment


                #8
                I like the opera windows on the tudors as they give you a little better rear vision when backing up. I don't like not being able to see where I'm backing up.

                Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                Originally posted by gadget73
                ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                Originally posted by dmccaig
                Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hearsesrock427 View Post
                  In order!

                  ...Because they either look silly, provide a convenient place for water to get trapped (unless of course you seal it with urethane, as is the case with my '89 and its door moldings), or both. Perhaps I could have that friend find me an LTD, and I'd pay a finder's fee. I've looked high and low around my area for a nice barge LTD, but it seems like the only place I see them are demo derbies.

                  The opera windowless variant was the Williamsburg trim IIRC. Still would need to delete tons of trim on that, but it'd be much saner than the '78.



                  The link was to my friend Nate's Flickr. HE bought that sick '81 you mentioned, not me! haha. He sold me the '89 Grand Marquis that I own now. My flickr is here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123836203@N02/
                  Ah, everything has so called water traps. My Firebird is reported to be a rust bucket type car. Well, my floor pans are solid, so are my rockers & trunk pan, just keep it out of the salt & moisture! I don't see too many of those barges with rust, so I immediately would pass on any that are althought it depends on the purpose. If it is going to be driven year round then thats fine I suppose. Salt is bad, very bad lol. How long has your friend had that '81? Is it solid? Guy said it ran great and all that and didn't mention any problems...

                  Originally posted by sly View Post
                  I like the opera windows on the tudors as they give you a little better rear vision when backing up. I don't like not being able to see where I'm backing up.
                  THey do look better on the coupes, that's for sure. To me, it's an uplevel thing, especially with the script. Plus as a passenger it ads a nice touch to the inside, with the reading light being mounted in there and all. I'd love to demo those seats though, all of the cloth ones I've seen look so comfy with those pillows. Dash configuration is ugly though, Cadillac Deville's had them beat IMO.
                  1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                  1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hearsesrock427 View Post
                    Perhaps I could have that friend find me an LTD, and I'd pay a finder's fee. I've looked high and low around my area for a nice barge LTD, but it seems like the only place I see them are demo derbies. [/url]
                    I've been looking for a reasonably prices 75-78 LTD Barge for about a year now here in NY without any luck. Everyone one I've come across has been too expensive or too far gone. I'm personally looking for a little bit of a fixer upper but am specifically looking for a non-landau car. Good luck!

                    EDIT: Something like THIS is basically what I'm looking for... just not that far away.
                    Last edited by slack; 01-30-2015, 04:31 PM.

                    '78 LTD | '87 Grand Marquis | '89 Crown Vic (RIP) | '91 Grand Marquis (RIP) | '94 Town Car (RIP) | '97 Town Car (RIP)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I would not buy that Lincoln unless I was planning of keeping it forever.
                      Unfortunately they are not worth much to anything at all.
                      So any money spent has to be an act of love.
                      Having said that, if it's your type of car and you don't mind buying a lot of gas, go for it.
                      If it's a 460 and you want better stock heads the 70-71 Cobra Jet heads (DOOE) are probably the best.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Finding those barges in the east in decent shape for a low price will be a depressing search. The demo derby, scrap prices or the rust keeps killing them. Keep saving, it is worth paying more for a nice one.

                        I know of one available in the spring.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          After some thought, I'm passing on the '78. It's just not feasible. To get it even remotely close to where I want to be cosmetically is way too much money. Then there's all the motor work and chassis work. And it still won't handle as well as a comparably upgraded panther. So fuck it. I'll just buy another box panther once I make sufficient progress in Ebyt's build.

                          Originally posted by tjc78 View Post
                          The base model Continental, and the 79 Collectors Series also didn't have opera windows.
                          Curious how the top of the line Collecters Series didn't come with the opera windows. You'd think a car like the '79 Collectors Series would come with them standard.

                          Originally posted by LithiumCobalt View Post
                          I personally find the opera windows to be tacky. Although, as mentioned, there were not many of these that did not come with them. You either got a Collector's Series 1979 or you had to special order the car with them deleted in all other years.

                          As for trouble spots, the rear bumper supports like to rot out and not much parts support available to fix it.

                          I've heard two stories on the 400 some of these came with. Some say the engine is adequate, some say they are not up to the job of moving these heavy beasts. So, a 460 would probably be preferred over the other.

                          The vinyl tops like to trap water below the rear window, but looks like that won't be a problem on this one.

                          Car looks to have the Town Car scripts on the front fenders, which would mean it has the pillow-top interior.
                          Explains why they're not too common, and why certain combinations (such as a designer series without the opera windows) is next to unheard of.

                          That makes sense; rear wheels kick water and other corrosives backwards, up into the wheel wells and/or bumper supports. Water has nowhere to go, so it makes its own path.

                          Ah. Well, good thing there's good aftermarket. Stroking will round out the go-fast changes. A 460 is basically a 400 with a really long stroke IIRC, so it definitely makes sense to get one of those. Nothing like having a factory stroker kit on your car!

                          Yet another reason to slicktop the barges. The '78 I linked seems to have already suffered from said water traps; slicktopping was likely done to contain the damage.

                          It does- I recall Nate mentioning something about that, like that the Town Car was a trim level on the Continental name before it became its own model. And the epic pillow-top interior that came with the Town Car trim level.

                          Originally posted by sly View Post
                          I like the opera windows on the tudors as they give you a little better rear vision when backing up. I don't like not being able to see where I'm backing up.
                          Didn't think there was practical use for them until you mentioned this. It makes sense though- those B pillars are pretty thick!

                          Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
                          Ah, everything has so called water traps. My Firebird is reported to be a rust bucket type car. Well, my floor pans are solid, so are my rockers & trunk pan, just keep it out of the salt & moisture! I don't see too many of those barges with rust, so I immediately would pass on any that are althought it depends on the purpose. If it is going to be driven year round then thats fine I suppose. Salt is bad, very bad lol. How long has your friend had that '81? Is it solid? Guy said it ran great and all that and didn't mention any problems...
                          I'd rather be safe than sorry with regards to body work. And while I won't subject any of my cars to winter, I will subject them to summer. Which means they will see at least a little bit of rain. Granted, upstate NY is pretty mellow compared to other parts of the globe in this regard. I'd still rather be safe than sorry. So I'll pony up and get the work done to fix the problem preventatively, so it'll never ever be an issue. Also helps that most of these practical fixes are aesthetically pleasing to me (slicktopped box panthers and barges FTW!). So it's a win-win. Car looks sexier, AND I can hoon with ironclad confidence, rain or shine. It's silly to sideline a car on behalf of some easily preventable water trap issues IMO. I'd rather not miss out on opportunities to practice drifting and donuts in nondescript parking lots, haha. I'll do that until the rain lets up and the roads dry off a bit. Once they do, it's back to ripping around the twisty roads!

                          Nate bought it in mid to late December, probably the week before X-mas. The '81 is 100% rust free, just some small dents and scrapes. Runs like a top- no lopo knock or anything. All for $900. I was equal parts amazed, proud, and jealous when he told me this, haha.

                          Originally posted by slack View Post
                          I've been looking for a reasonably prices 75-78 LTD Barge for about a year now here in NY without any luck. Everyone one I've come across has been too expensive or too far gone. I'm personally looking for a little bit of a fixer upper but am specifically looking for a non-landau car. Good luck!

                          EDIT: Something like THIS is basically what I'm looking for... just not that far away.
                          Seems to be the case with a lot of cars- even box panthers to a degree.

                          Really like the '78 you linked. I'd take a chance on something like that for $1300. Doesn't look like it has any holes, just some surface rust in odd places and a couple dents. Also like how it's a slicktop and doesn't have tons of exterior trim/moldings. No cornering lights either. SCORE!

                          Originally posted by mcninetyone View Post
                          I would not buy that Lincoln unless I was planning of keeping it forever.
                          Unfortunately they are not worth much to anything at all.
                          So any money spent has to be an act of love.
                          Having said that, if it's your type of car and you don't mind buying a lot of gas, go for it.
                          If it's a 460 and you want better stock heads the 70-71 Cobra Jet heads (DOOE) are probably the best.
                          Something cool like a box panther or a barge body Lincoln is something I'll own forever. I consider a LOT of cars, most of which I don't buy. The few I end up buying will be with me forever, though. I've spent well over $4000 out of love for Ebyt; I'll be more than happy to do the same for her stablemate.

                          I could care less what my cars are worth to someone else; I don't think anyone but me when it comes to building up a car. Everything, from the cosmetics to the performance, is designed for and my benefit.

                          My problem with the barge body cars isn't their ability to make lots of low RPM power. The big block Ford has considerable aftermarket support. It's the handling limits. I want my summer cars to have lots of low RPM power, and lots of handling ability. The barges fail to deliver on the second condition. The only way I could see a barge being a corner-carving beast is lots of custom suspension parts. Which means more money flying out of the window. Throwing on police spec LTD suspension parts is just a band-aid fix.... to paraphrase Jaws. "I think we're gonna need a bigger band-aid!" In other words, going really fast in a straight line is not enough for me. I want have my cake, and eat it too.

                          Originally posted by Mainemantom View Post
                          Finding those barges in the east in decent shape for a low price will be a depressing search. The demo derby, scrap prices or the rust keeps killing them. Keep saving, it is worth paying more for a nice one.

                          I know of one available in the spring.
                          I'll just stop wasting my time and instead stick with box panthers- they seem to have fared better with this. I still plenty of em' get demo derbied, but there's still a good amount out there, at least in my neck of the woods. I will definitely pay more now for a car with nicer cosmetics, regardless of what I buy. It just makes sense. Don't buy a car that needs body work unless you're out of options and/or want to burn several thousand dollars quickly.
                          Last edited by Hearsesrock427; 01-31-2015, 08:05 PM. Reason: Added some context
                          '89 Grand Marquis "Ebyt", '85 Grand Marquis "Eva", '94 Caprice "Kira"
                          '84 Town Car "Stacy", '79 New Yorker “Anita", '93 Town Car "Kelly"
                          '80 Mark VI "Allie", '94 Grand Marquis coming June, '79 LTD-S "Oksana"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Hearsesrock427 View Post
                            Curious how the top of the line Collecters Series didn't come with the opera windows. You'd think a car like the '79 Collectors Series would come with them standard.
                            To answer a slightly old question here--the opera windows are actually standard on the late '70s Continentals. Deleting was actually an off-the-books option. By the late '70s, the oval opera window had become a cliché and some considered these cars more tasteful without the opera window, so the Collector Series reflected that by simplifying the design for overall more classic appeal.

                            On the delete models, the port hole is still there as all cars used the same C-pillar quarter panel, then a sheet metal patch is riveted over the port hole along with seam sealant. Something I found out on the '80s Mark VI is the carriage and specialty roof cars they didn't even do that--they just put black A/C tape across the hole and stuck the roof over it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by onedollarbob View Post
                              To answer a slightly old question here--the opera windows are actually standard on the late '70s Continentals. Deleting was actually an off-the-books option.
                              If that's true, it must apply to '78-79 only. I've read through the '77 order guide and the opera windows were optional on the base Continental and Town Car (not sure about Williamsburg or the other oddball versions). The were just so popular at the time that nearly every Continental was ordered/built with them.

                              Originally posted by Hearsesrock427
                              That makes sense; rear wheels kick water and other corrosives backwards, up into the wheel wells and/or bumper supports. Water has nowhere to go, so it makes its own path.
                              The moisture trapped by vinyl roofs is usually condensation or opera window leakage, rather than water being thrown up from the rear wheelwells. I've heard it is good practice to use a hair dryer on the bottom corners of a vinyl roof after a wash, to encourage drying of the trapped moisture.

                              Originally posted by Hearsesrock427
                              A 460 is basically a 400 with a really long stroke IIRC
                              You're thinking of the 429, which is also a 385-series engine (same bore as 460 but shorter stroke). The 400 "raised deck" 335-series was based on the 351 Cleveland and is what the 351M was derived from.

                              Originally posted by Hearsesrock427
                              I want my summer cars to have lots of low RPM power, and lots of handling ability.
                              IMHO, the only barge-era Lincoln that has potential for this is the Mark V. In stock form, I feel they are vastly superior in handling to the Continental, largely thanks to the more modern suspension (4-link rear end vs. 3, standard sway bar, etc.). Stiffer shocks, springs and sway bars make them very capable for their size. That's my plan if I keep my '78.
                              Last edited by RyPow; 02-27-2015, 03:44 PM.
                              RyPow
                              1987 LTD Crown Victoria LX sedan - The "Sand Box" - 73K, towing package
                              1987 LTD Crown Victoria LX Tutone Tudor - '96 Explorer 5.0 + 5spd swap in the works
                              1985 Lincoln Town Car Cartier - previously owned by "navguy12" from thelincolnforum.net
                              2007 Lincoln Town Car Signature Limited, 102k, daily driver
                              2006 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, 115k, winter beats
                              1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car, 42k
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