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1998 MGM GS Headliner Adhesive Suggestions Needed

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    1998 MGM GS Headliner Adhesive Suggestions Needed

    Dear MGM brain trust;

    I have returned after dealing with a car that is actually just drive-able and not giving me any trouble, except for my very first code, a P0305 Cylinder # 5 misfire at start-up this last week, which did 'rattle me' as I have never had it throw at code at me before, ever. Briefly, I believe this all occurred at warm-up and my *not* allowing the engine to warm up on it's own but pressing down on the accelerator to encourage it in rpm's. It stumbled and *shook* and went down in rpm's before coming back up and ran beautifully. Is this predictable and are others able to force a code failure like this by flooding it with gas or what the hell happened? The corner station ran the code for me and yes, this is all new for me with fuel injection and the ECM that one can just plug into. I will monitor this *very* carefully now and never ever pressure it at cold start-up like that!

    Getting that out of the way temporary, I have a longer range question that is vexing as it deals with the headliner in the far rear up in the middle of the back on this beautiful car. It has started to de-laminate from the black foam ( grey headliner cloth ) and I want to do this correctly and with skill and thought. Might there be a glue stick I can use that I can rub onto to foam and allow to dry or just press lightly on the fabric w/o any penetration of the fabric that would darken it. I remember when I tried an adhesive spray on my old Dodge Diplomat and it was a "total disaster" and I had to rip the entire thing down eventually. Lesson learned! So I want to approach this with total finesse and careful attention to preserving everything as it first appeared. Has anyone done this in the back of their car with a great result? I am willing also to make up a mixture of adhesive and apply it with maybe a foam brush or art store brush or applicator.

    Bottom line: I *Love* this car and it looks new as it only has 79k original miles on it and has been always garaged out here in California. I just want to get this nailed down but properly before it becomes more troubling. Let me know what your thoughts are with this and what works the best.

    Sincerely;

    _Hacksaw(tm)

    #2
    once it starts to droop, anything you do short of replacing the entire headliner (foam and all) will only be a band-aid. The best band-aid though, is 3M contact cement in a spray can. Spray on both the foam and the surface of the headliner that will be in contact with the foam... let it tack up some (directions on the can for that) and then smooth it back up.

    The real problem is that the foam itself is starting to disintegrate. Sometimes it's just the one area and the band-aid will work for a few years, sometimes only a few months. Eventually though, the foam will come apart and nothing will help stick it back.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
    Originally posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Originally posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by sly View Post
      once it starts to droop, anything you do short of replacing the entire headliner (foam and all) will only be a band-aid. The best band-aid though, is 3M contact cement in a spray can. Spray on both the foam and the surface of the headliner that will be in contact with the foam... let it tack up some (directions on the can for that) and then smooth it back up.

      The real problem is that the foam itself is starting to disintegrate. Sometimes it's just the one area and the band-aid will work for a few years, sometimes only a few months. Eventually though, the foam will come apart and nothing will help stick it back.
      Why did I secretly think the prognosis would be like this? My deepest thanks for your special insight with materials break-down under what I believe is 'solar-shock' as this is the first time this car has seen serious sunlight as I bought it when it only had 64k original miles on it and it was always garaged. Rats! breakdown of the foam as well eh? Yucko. Damn!!! Why don't these manufacturers 'think about all of this before hand?' Makes me want to scream frequently, however it's better to out think them vs. yelling at the wall of life and well, cars. I am *very* good with such issues but life *always* has the upper hand in these matters and with women friends as well ( weary half-smile ). What might work is to locate a small roller applicator like the one that we used when I worked in the piano shop here years ago. One keeps the liquid adhesive separate and then this ceramic roller goes into said glue to bond pianos keys to the wood. However, life and reality intrudes yet again as the rear window gets in the way right?!! Damn this. I want a fighting chance to do this correctly. This is now pissing me off and the weather is beautiful here in California on the back side of San Francisco bay ( remember always to use this formal term vs. any shorthand to describe that golden city by the bay ). I have to think on this and spend time at the very interesting art store here today. Damn this issue! It's always like this with headliner entanglements i.e. all or nothing. There used to be mechanical plastic colored plugs that one could screw into the headliner to secure it to the foam if I recall. Ah............maybe trained crickets can do this if paid properly? Wait! Nope that idea will not work either %$#@!

      _Hacksaw(tm)
      _______________________________________________
      "life is the strangest teacher...." -- Michael Gorbachev
      Last edited by _Hacksaw; 03-04-2015, 03:12 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        they do think of it... it lasts for 3 year/36K miles so they really don't care. It's cheap and holds up well enough for them, so they use it. It usually outlives even those 10/100K warranties so it's still not a big issue to them. If you want one that will never degrade (re: takes a very long time to degrade - like 20+ years) you will need to use different materials. Like foam rubber between the cardboard and cloth and even replace the cloth with leather or some other material that will hold up well. Considering that a standard headliner typically takes 10+ years to degrade... and it's usually about $100 give or take to have a shop replace it (foam and all at the good shops), you probably won't see better headliners except in much higher end vehicles.

        Also, those plugs screw into the cardboard, so if you used those, you'd have to replace the cardboard too when replacing the headliner.

        Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
        rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
        Originally posted by gadget73
        ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
        Originally posted by dmccaig
        Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

        Comment


          #5
          The 3m spray adhesive Isint that great and smells like piss. We use industrial contact adhesive (it's designed for laminating Formica to countertips) we spray it with a cheap paint gun from Harbor Freight. This is on million dollar boats, anytime we have used the 3m we have had to go back and fix it.
          http://secondhandracing.com/Home.aspx
          http://secondhandradio.com/

          R.I.P. Jason P Harrill 6-12-06

          http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?t=5634

          Comment


            #6
            yeah... the 3m doesn't like humidity over 80% and tends to delaminate. I've never been able to find the industrial stuff, though I haven't looked much either.

            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
            rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
            Originally posted by gadget73
            ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
            Originally posted by dmccaig
            Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

            Comment


              #7
              Since you have a 98, did you check the intake crossovers and see if you're leaking coolant down to the spark plugs causing a misfire? Did you pull the plugs? You could also pull and clean out the spark plug boots as well.
              1986 Mercury Grand Marquis "5.0" (160,000)

              2011 Ford Crown Victoria "4.6" (54,000)

              2015 Jeep Wrangler JK Willys "3.6" (48,000)

              Comment


                #8
                My Camry has a hard rubbery headliner, vinyl or something like that, colored to match the interior. It probably sucks for sound insulation, but it still looks brand new after 25 years -- virtually indestructible compared to the flimsy foam-cloth stuff that's in most cars. If the headliner on my Merc drops, I'm going to try to find some of that material or get some carpet to fit. No tears, no drops, no stains, no problem.

                1995 Grand Marquis GS
                - 156k miles, three-tone until I find my paint
                1990 Toyota Camry DX - 211k miles, someone else's future barn find
                1994 Saturn SW2 wagon - wife's car

                Originally posted by SVT98t
                I'll make it fit.
                I own hammers.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Georges86 View Post
                  Since you have a 98, did you check the intake crossovers and see if you're leaking coolant down to the spark plugs causing a misfire? Did you pull the plugs? You could also pull and clean out the spark plug boots as well.
                  OOoooooooooooooooooooooooooh, yes. Such thoughts have not gone, unthought of, so to speak! I replaced the plugs very carefully last year with the best I could purchase and carefully put everything back in place. Amazing what one can find in there also Btw. My woman engineer friend warned me about this as she replaced her intake already with another made of aluminum I believe. Best that I remove # 5, the first plug up front facing the car on the drivers side, and do just such an inspection. I learned in a video that replacing just the rubber boot on such plugs is not so effective. Any thought on just that issue? This mechanic spoke of the reality that the coil packs never ever seem to like this and do not work. Not sure if the pack was iffy to start ( probably ) but it made me wonder many things but distracted me from 'thinking' about my beautiful grey headliner at the rear window that is starting to fall slightly. Hate us all that you might, but it's warm and sunny here and has been all damn winter. No rain! Serious drought year # 4 and not looking good in the long range forecast! I do have cable chains in the trunk for this car just in case the heavens open and strange stuff descends ( white powdery fluffy stuff ). Damn that f'ing headliner!

                  _Hachsaw(tm)
                  Last edited by _Hacksaw; 03-04-2015, 06:32 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Well I'm always a fan of at least trying the simple repair first. If you pull the coil pack and clean, then dialectic grease it and can never get the problem to replicate itself again, awesome!

                    If not, swap coils around. See if the issue remains at #5 or follows the CP. Then you'll have your awnser and won't be wasting money you could be using to fix that headliner. Haha!

                    George
                    1986 Mercury Grand Marquis "5.0" (160,000)

                    2011 Ford Crown Victoria "4.6" (54,000)

                    2015 Jeep Wrangler JK Willys "3.6" (48,000)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      When I redid headliner in the 85' I removed headliner out of the car completely. Then peeled the old fabric off. Most of the foam remained attached to the board. I used a wire brush to scrub the foam off until the surface was clean. It doesn't have to be perfectly smooth, just as long as it's somewhat even.

                      Then I purchased a roll of replacement headliner material. It was something like 50 bucks. Roll comes with foam backing already attached.

                      In order to get the headliner material glued to the cardboard, lay out the material on top of the cardboard. Flip one half of the material over. Spray the cardboard as well as the material with adhesive. Be sure you have good coverage. Let the adhesive sit for 5 minutes or so until tacky then flip it over and work out any bubbles or wrinkles. Repeat the procedure for the other half of the headliner. After the material is attached trim the edges and you are all set.

                      This is the adhesive that I used. 3M is probably identical.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        [QUOTE=Mr Bean;750552]When I redid headliner in the 85' I removed headliner out of the car completely. Then peeled the old fabric off. Most of the foam remained attached to the board. I used a wire brush to scrub the foam off until the surface was clean. It doesn't have to be perfectly smooth, just as long as it's somewhat even.

                        Then I purchased a roll of replacement headliner material. It was something like 50 bucks. Roll comes with foam backing already attached.

                        In order to get the headliner material glued to the cardboard, lay out the material on top of the cardboard. Flip one half of the material over. Spray the cardboard as well as the material with adhesive. Be sure you have good coverage. Let the adhesive sit for 5 minutes or so until tacky then flip it over and work out any bubbles or wrinkles. Repeat the procedure for the other half of the headliner. After the material is attached trim the edges and you are all set.

                        This is the adhesive that I used. 3M is probably identical.

                        __________________________________________________ ________

                        Incredible! What a project to say the very least. Your experience also "answers" one of the mystery questions in this entire madness, as it ( you ) explains carefully that this headliner material is not just thin cloth but cloth + foam! Now this is starting to make some sense, at least to me. I just returned from a long walk talking with neighbors and photographing all of the young women sunning themselves in this warm spring sunlight light etc. but I apologize and will return to the subject at hand here.

                        I brought out my Maglite and looked carefully at the piece that is falling down in the far rear upper. Ahhhhhhhhh....... I could see the adhesive coating bond and it's a darker black foam color also. I thought very magically about removing the rear window and all that would entail as I / we have not even gotten to "removing" this headliner yet right?! Its has to be a wrenching snarl of a job and no way at this time! I am going to attempt to out-think this one at least at this time. Another idea that came to me was to try to locate some doubled sided clear plastic adhesive material and try to see if that might work? Probably not as great as "applying" *great* quality adhesive and then attaching it carefully with gloves to press it into place. Damn this all! I feel so betrayed and it's nearly always like this. I would rather deal with something mechanical and rough than something this elusive, unexpected, sensitive and ephemeral. One can almost never ever win with headliner repairs like this and yet I will try! However damn that rear window also. It's blocking full access. Maybe what I can do is to pull down most of it at this edge in the far upper rear and reattach it all ( about 6 to 8 inches of it ) back up....very carefully....to where it once was. I just *fear* that more will come down? Maybe "not" as it does not face upward to the sun as this does as it's curved upward back there. Wait. I need a girlfriend who understands my pain and frustration with all this! Good, now I have a plan of action as a start point for all conversations, at least at the art store tomorrow possibly? I'll let you all know my my luck runs this week with that later. Foam and cloth are never a good long term idea!

                        _Hacksaw(tm)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Oh, yes indeed. Pain and total help camp suffering and here it all is in a video no less at 2 am. that I just located. I don't want to talk about this right now. It falls into the primal category of human evil and automotive car repairs. Hell, give me an upper control arm bushing on a bad day in the rain out here vs. any of this torment! Do you really believe the wealthy go to sleep at night worrying about such things? Hell no! They just go out and purchase a new car...

                          _Hacksaw(tm)

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MmT72NDtTs&t=209

                          Comment


                            #14
                            used to work in an upholtry shop, the orange 3m adheisive is awsome if you dont have actual spray glue!
                            89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Here is a link to the Permatex HD Headliner and Carpet Adhesive. They do have this here at my local auto parts store ( a national chain ). I did press this small section in the far rear upward today just to study it's adhesion dynamics using just the old glue at the fabric and I was able to determine that this fabric is indeed very thin. Is there some way I might be able to apply this using an applicator of some sort? This spray would be way too much power for 'repair' purposes. I wonder if I could say spray some into a glass jar and "then" use a small flat foam paint brush to apply it to the foam to 'seal' it and then return and maybe use a second coat to really secure it? While this sounds complicated ( it is ) there is always as way if you think about it long enough. I just do not want to saturate this fabric or have this glue drip in any way.

                              Had to turn on the AC here today as it's was so hot in the car with full sun and the mid-seventies again. No wonders you need to use something to protect any bond from heat and solar / thermal shock with these things as our sun out here even in January is or can burn you and then if it just sits in the sun it's over the top and toast. If I really take my time with this and slow it all down I have a fighting chance. Your time will come! Jesus, hope Harrison was wearing a helmet today when he brought his plane down today? This MGM is 4250 lbs. according to it's very clear smog test last week and yet I *fear* drunk drivers and deer strikes in the wine country here ( I do not drink alcohol ). People get so tanked up and then drive off and pass on blind curves and much worse when I least expect it at 1 am. and then the dangerous road rage machismo stuff. I was going to think about actually putting on a push bumper just to protect against both impacts + onboard video. Something, anything to mitigate the impact/s. Maybe a damn helmet also right?

                              _Hacksaw(tm)

                              http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-27828.../dp/B000HBNU9K
                              __________________________________________________ ____________
                              “Never fight with a pig…..you will both roll around in the mud and…..
                              …the pig loves it!”

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