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Adventures in cam swaps, also, how to fail at same

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    Adventures in cam swaps, also, how to fail at same

    So this weekend was an episode in fuckery. John (86Vicky) came down to help me swap the Explorer cam in the Towncar to a Comp XE258 that Pantera77 had hooked me up with like 2 years prior. Everything came apart mostly OK until it was time to extract the cam itself. As the lifters were coming out, things stopped looking promising.

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    This is an example of one of the damaged lifters. I have 6 or 7 that are similarly dinked. Honestly didn't count, at this point it needs 16 as far as I'm concerned.

    Here are some shots of the resultant damage to the camshaft:




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    Working theory is that when I had the cam gear fall off a couple years back, the cam slid backwards and slammed some of the lifters. The side of the lifter where the axle sits cracked, and the roller wasn't able to run smoothly anymore. Fast forward several years and several miles and this is what happened.

    and an overly-sunny video, just because



    Gonna order a new set of lifters and a new thrust plate and see what that gets me. Cam endplay per the book is 0.0005 to 0.0055, and I'm getting closer to .008. There is a visible wear mark on the thrust plate, and I can believe its .003. If that won't get me in range, then I suppose its new timing set time. The plate is cheaper though, only $7.
    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Originally posted by phayzer5
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

    #2
    Damn, surprised it wasn't making a bunch of terrible noises.
    2020 F250 - 7.3 4x4 CCSB STX 3.55's - BAKFlip MX4
    2005 Grand Marquis GS - Marauder sway bars, Marauder exhaust, KYB's
    2003 Marauder - Trilogy # 8, JLT, kooks, 2.5" exhaust, 4.10's/31 spline, widened rear's, metco's, addco's, ridetech's 415hp/381tq
    1987 Colony Park - 03+ frame swap, blown Gen II Coyote, 6R80, ridetechs, stainless works, absolute money pit. WIP

    Comment


      #3
      Jesus christ. Your roller lifters are acting like flat tappet lifters, lol.

      I suppose that wouldn't make it idle too weird, the lobes weren't destroyed as bad as what some solid lifters do. But uh yeah you should've had some valve train noise..

      What'd the oil look like?
      __________________________________________________


      1985.03 Crown Vic. Coupe "CVGT" Build thread - china whirlybird, burnout machine.
      The only 6 speed box on a late model frame.

      Originally posted by SVT98t
      It has air ride. I've disabled it since I've been jacking it up and down.

      That is how you're supposed to jack it.

      Up and down.

      -ryan s.

      Comment


        #4
        Its always had some chatter. Those rockers chattered on the motor with the original lifters and the HO cam and the old heads. When this iteration went together, it still chattered so I figured it was either not having the lifter preload set right, or just the rockers are tired and it made noise. Can't honestly say it made noticeably more noise on Saturday than it did 4 years ago when I put it together. I honestly never would have imagined finding this mess inside the motor when I opened it up. I drove like 260 miles on Saturday with it like that, ran just fine and probably gave me more fuel mileage than it has since I've owned it. The last two tanks have been better than 20 mpg, and this thing has never given more than 18 with any regularity.
        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

        Originally posted by phayzer5
        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

        Comment


          #5
          Now that is surprising to find for sure.

          Though the signs lead you to believe all was well with the motor good thing you got the itch to put the new cam in. Who the hell knows where those lifters would have decided to leave you stranded.
          ~David~

          My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
          My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

          Originally posted by ootdega
          My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

          Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
          But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

          Originally posted by gadget73
          my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




          Comment


            #6
            What's really interesting about situations like this is it goes to show how much abuse particular parts can take.

            I'd be interested in putting a PI cam in my 2000 MGM someday. I've read some stuff about various adjustments that have to be done depending on the setup, and I'd prefer not to go through that kind of thing. Does anyone know if replacing an NPI cam with a PI cam would require all the adjustment stuff, or would it be more of a "plug and play" kind of thing?

            2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
            mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

            Comment


              #7
              Your video doesn't do the cam justice. Here you go mang...
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              Comment


                #8
                Thanks. Camera doesn't like direct sun. I was using my painting / baking table. Does real nice to bake the finish on parts, not so much for taking pictures.

                On the upside, I've got plenty of time to get brackets and such painted. Refinished my HO plate today, that came out nice. The rest of the brackets look pretty good too, better than they were by a long shot anyway.

                New lifters and thrust plate are ordered. Melling thrust plate is $7, FMS is $50. Melling ktnx. I did go with the Ford lifters. $12 more than the Summit ones, and they are identical to the original lifters that would have been in here. I don't think the fact that they were Summit brand has anything to do with the failure now that I look at it closer, but for small coin I'll go OEM.
                Last edited by gadget73; 05-25-2015, 08:29 PM.
                86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                Originally posted by phayzer5
                I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                Comment


                  #9
                  wooo... Kustom re-grind
                  2003 Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, Dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 9/2011
                  89 Crown Victoria LX HPP -- SOLD 9/2010
                  88 Grand Marquis LS - The Original -- Totaled 5/2006


                  I rebuild AOD/AODE/4R70W/4R75E transmissions....Check out my Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/North...48414635312478

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by IPreferDIY View Post
                    What's really interesting about situations like this is it goes to show how much abuse particular parts can take.

                    I'd be interested in putting a PI cam in my 2000 MGM someday. I've read some stuff about various adjustments that have to be done depending on the setup, and I'd prefer not to go through that kind of thing. Does anyone know if replacing an NPI cam with a PI cam would require all the adjustment stuff, or would it be more of a "plug and play" kind of thing?
                    You mean "Cams" since a SOHC 4.6 has a cam per head? The advantage is minuscule. My 06 put out 209wrhp at SF last year, you don't want those stocker cams. Aint worth the time.



                    On the upside of your cam tomfoolery, your bearing surfaces look mint! At least those aren't destroyed. OR so one would think.
                    __________________________________________________


                    1985.03 Crown Vic. Coupe "CVGT" Build thread - china whirlybird, burnout machine.
                    The only 6 speed box on a late model frame.

                    Originally posted by SVT98t
                    It has air ride. I've disabled it since I've been jacking it up and down.

                    That is how you're supposed to jack it.

                    Up and down.

                    -ryan s.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bobcat View Post
                      You mean "Cams" since a SOHC 4.6 has a cam per head? The advantage is minuscule. My 06 put out 209wrhp at SF last year, you don't want those stocker cams. Aint worth the time. ...
                      Ya, "cams", "cam swap". You know what I mean.

                      I was thinking in the context of a PI intake swap and 04+ CVPI air filter box with the bigger MAF. Does that make a difference? From what I've read so far, you get about as much benefit from putting in the PI cams as you would from replacing the entire heads (which would require 93 octane gas from the increase in compression). I know all of that would require a tune, but from the perspective of just swapping the cams (assuming it would be useful in this context), would it require all the fancy adjustment stuff?

                      2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                      mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I don't think the OHC designs really have any sort of adjustment. There may be some sort of a thrust plate that sets cam end play, but thats likely about it. No pushrods to fool with needing different length, just the cam follower and the rocker arm. That stuff all just bolts in. Torque it till its where it goes and you're pretty much done with it.

                        some quick NPI vs PI head flow numbers I found. Must be correct, they are in the internets after all.

                        .100 – 061 – 060
                        .150 – 089 - 086
                        .200 – 112 - 116
                        .250 – 131 - 141
                        .300 – 146 - 160
                        .350 – 160 - 169
                        .400 – 173 - 176
                        .450 – 185 - 182
                        .500 – 188 - 185
                        .550 – 193 - 186


                        If anyone cares, PI cam specs:

                        0.050 Duration: 200/209 (int/exh)
                        Laft @ Valve 505/531
                        Centerline 114/116
                        LSA 115


                        202/207 @.050"
                        .461"/.466" lift
                        114 LSA.

                        No idea on the intake flow numbers. That might be the magic, PI cams and intake on NPI heads may do OK. Probably have better seat of the pants feel with PI heads tho since the low-mid lift numbers are better, but I would expect lower peak horsepower. Essentially it should be a broader power band with PI heads.

                        Mostly this is just guesswork. The most useful thing I ever did with a 4.6 was remove one.
                        Last edited by gadget73; 05-26-2015, 05:52 PM.
                        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                        Originally posted by phayzer5
                        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Wow... I'm amazed.

                          I'm curious, what exactly happened when you're cam gear fell off? Were you driving and all of sudden boom clang shabang WTF!? or what?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                            ... The most useful thing I ever did with a 4.6 was remove one.
                            You're making fun of me again, aren't you.






                            2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                            mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Cam gave no fucks and just kept on spinning. Makes me worry a bit less about the surface rust i had on mine when i installed it. Shit probably just got polished down by now.
                              Give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will promptly forget that he once did not know, and proceed to call anyone who asks, a n00b and flame them on the boards for being stupid.

                              Comment

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