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advice needed: "easiest" engine swap / rebuild?

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    #31
    OK, three more questions if you don't mind:

    one reason i've been shying away from the complete HO swap is the wiring... but i've actually never seen a harness before. how many ends does it have? i'm imagining a spider web with dozens upon dozens of connectors which i'll have no idea where to connect. i mean i assume some go to the dash, to the steering wheel (cruise), back to fuel system, and then all the sensors.

    would my fuel system, already CFI, be okay to use with SEFI (other than the obvious rails)... pump and return line good to go?

    looks like a complete '94 HO motor from a thunderbird is up for grabs nearby. would that play nicely? i seem to only see the mustang, mark VII, and exploder motors referenced here -- what about those from late-model t-birds, broncos, and F150s?

    thanks as always.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by sinistral View Post
      OK, three more questions if you don't mind:

      one reason i've been shying away from the complete HO swap is the wiring... but i've actually never seen a harness before. how many ends does it have? i'm imagining a spider web with dozens upon dozens of connectors which i'll have no idea where to connect. i mean i assume some go to the dash, to the steering wheel (cruise), back to fuel system, and then all the sensors.

      would my fuel system, already CFI, be okay to use with SEFI (other than the obvious rails)... pump and return line good to go?

      looks like a complete '94 HO motor from a thunderbird is up for grabs nearby. would that play nicely? i seem to only see the mustang, mark VII, and exploder motors referenced here -- what about those from late-model t-birds, broncos, and F150s?

      thanks as always.
      I think the '94 tbird was a 4.6, complete no go unless you do entire wiring harness, transmission, computer, engine mounts etc. People have gone SEFI from CFI easy just by intake/wiring/heads/computer swap. AFAIK computers have 1 plug. May have to repin some shit (move wires to different locations in the plug) but if you had both wiring books (EVTM) it should be pretty straightforward. But if you convert to SEFI then the HO motor is a plug and play, NO wiring changes, NO WIRING CHANGES, aside from the firing order (which is easier on the bottom end of the motor).
      Last edited by sxcpotatoes; 06-29-2015, 01:00 PM.
      ,
      Slicktop '91 GS HO 4.30 rear. '82 Mark VI Tudor HO, '90 F-150 XLT, '62 project Heep, '89 Arizona Waggin' and '88 donor in PA, getting combined.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by sxcpotatoes View Post
        I think the '94 tbird was a 4.6
        hmmm... the interweb sez you're right -- craigslist ad is calling it a 5.0. bummer.
        thanks.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by sinistral View Post
          isn't it more accurate to blame it on the speed density aspect and the EEC? i'm assuming this to be true because you see all those aftermarket TBI kits from FAST, Holley, Edelbrock, etc. that are good for 500HP... so while i get that SEFI / MAF is superior, it seems CFI isn't the issue by itself, right?
          Not really, there' nothing inherently wrong with SD, there's tons of extremely high HP cars running it.

          Most of those kits are for people converting old carbed vehicles to EFI, and there a lot different from the CFI on your car.

          Have you ever looked down your stock CFI unit? It doesn't exactly scream "high flow". Even if there was some sort of support to tune it, you'd probably hit a flow wall very quickly. Two injectors just can't do that much. Even the HO CFI cars were rated at what? 180hp?

          If you want to do a SEFI swap, you'll need to find a donor 86-91 car for it's harness. It's a lot easier to make a panther harness work then a mustang. Don't forget all the little things you'll need, like the throttle cable, tv cable and trans lever, and all the other little stuff.

          Make sure you get a wiring diagram for both your car and whatever year the donor car is, it will make it a lot easier then tracing wires all day.


          2020 F250 - 7.3 4x4 CCSB STX 3.55's - BAKFlip MX4
          2005 Grand Marquis GS - Marauder sway bars, Marauder exhaust, KYB's
          2003 Marauder - Trilogy # 8, JLT, kooks, 2.5" exhaust, 4.10's/31 spline, widened rear's, metco's, addco's, ridetech's 415hp/381tq
          1987 Colony Park - 03+ frame swap, blown Gen II Coyote, 6R80, ridetechs, stainless works, absolute money pit. WIP

          Comment


            #35
            definitely a matter of air and fuel flow limits vs speed-density limits. If there was a fatter throttle body, then maybe it could happen. S-D can indeed be tuned, provided you can find someone who understands how to work with it. This is not as easy as you think it might be. Since Ford only ever made one car, the Mustang, you're looking for people who specialize in 1986-1988 stuff only. 88 in California was mass air, 89+ was 50 state mass air. Most of those guys converted either to mass air or a carb years ago. 1985 automatic-only had CFI, but those were also either converted to carb and/or manuals a long while ago. about the only thing you want to do with CFI is replace the vacuum lines and timing chain and drive it slowly. They quite honestly aren't good for much else, though a properly running one is decent on fuel and is very smooth running.

            But yeah, multiport conversions have been done on CFI cars. I know of at least 5 on this site, two of which had pretty good documentation. FatNasty did an 84 Grand Marquis, and 85CrownHPP did his 85 Vic. 86VickyLX did a SEFI 351 swap into Bobcat's 85 Vic, and he also converted Matt's (forget the username right now) 82 Mark VI. Pantera77 did his 85 as well. You can ask those guys for specifics, but honestly those wiring harnesses are not nearly as scary as you expect. Its got a lot of ends, but its pretty self-contained. Basically if you unplug the computer and follow the harness out, you can pull the whole thing in one big chunk. I've replaced the harness in my car, and once I pulled it back out to loan to someone for a test and then re-installed it.
            86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
            5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

            91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

            1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

            Originally posted by phayzer5
            I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
              1996 only for the GT40 head.
              Looks like a boneyard not too horribly far away has a couple of '96 Explorer, Eddie Bauer editions. Don't know what's left, but would these heads be GT40s?

              Comment


                #37
                more options?

                hmm... boneyard also lists '90 Ford LTD Crown Vic Country Squire. Is that a lo-po 5.0?
                looks like also a '96 Crown Vic (or would that be too late... OBDII?).

                also '87 Town Car "Signature" ??
                Last edited by sinistral; 06-29-2015, 06:39 PM.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Any box panther has a lopo 5.0. 92+ vics are 4.6 entirely different.
                  90/91 harnesses are a lot different then 86-89 ones and IMO, better.
                  2020 F250 - 7.3 4x4 CCSB STX 3.55's - BAKFlip MX4
                  2005 Grand Marquis GS - Marauder sway bars, Marauder exhaust, KYB's
                  2003 Marauder - Trilogy # 8, JLT, kooks, 2.5" exhaust, 4.10's/31 spline, widened rear's, metco's, addco's, ridetech's 415hp/381tq
                  1987 Colony Park - 03+ frame swap, blown Gen II Coyote, 6R80, ridetechs, stainless works, absolute money pit. WIP

                  Comment


                    #39
                    so, assuming i decide to bite the bullet, which of these motors should i grab? junkyard shows the following (though no idea if engines are there at all or worked over):

                    '93 cougar (which according to wiki could have a 5.0?)
                    '95 mustang ("base", so probably a V6, right?)
                    '96 explorer
                    '97 explorer

                    and i'd leave the harness, right (unless the mustang has a 5.0)?

                    (and are explorer motors MAF or SD?)
                    Last edited by sinistral; 06-29-2015, 10:34 PM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Personal prefernece, in order,

                      97 Explorer
                      96 Explorer
                      93 Couger
                      95 Mustang, if a 5.0

                      Use reasonable judgement on condition and mileage, etc. I'd take a clean 93 Couger motor over a whooped 97 Explorer any day. The heads and intake are better on either Explorer engine, but the 93 Couger motor probably has the better cam. Reportedly it uses the Mustang Cobra cam. The 95 Mustang motor is your standard HO cam, which is a little soft on the bottom end vs the Cobra cam. Explorer cam has good bottom end, but runs out of steam up top. Cobra cam in an Explorer engine works very nicely though, it basically becomes a 1993 Cobra at that point.

                      The P heads (97+) do flow better than the non-P heads, but they do require P-compatible headers. They're actually good headers though, and not stupidly expensive compared to other good headers. If you're planning to stick with manifolds, 1990 Towncar tubular manifolds will work with P heads, and I'd run them no matter what engine you go with vs the iron lumps. They still suck, but not as much and weight reduction because racecar.

                      The valve springs are shittier on the Explorer heads, but thats nothing that can't be dealt with. Used heads ought to be rebuilt anyway, and its not a big thing to stick a better set of valve springs in there while you're at it.

                      None of these will have timing covers that are useful to you. You'll need a stock one off any box.

                      93 Couger upper intake also doesn't work. its that weirdo bendy thing that 95 Mustangs got, and it can't be spun backwards.

                      The Couger oil pan will work, the Explorer pan will not. Explorers also will need the threaded dingus that goes into the block where the oil filter is. They had an oil cooler that doesn't fit for our needs. You can in theory steal this from your stock motor, or you can get a new one for not much money.
                      86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                      5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                      91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                      1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                      Originally posted by phayzer5
                      I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                      Comment


                        #41
                        thanks a million, gadget. very helpful.

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        Use reasonable judgement on condition and mileage, etc. I'd take a clean 93 Couger motor over a whooped 97 Explorer any day.
                        but if i can get a complete explorer motor for less than $200, i figure i could get a rebuild kit from summit or jegs for also about that, and maybe have refreshed HO for ~$500?

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        The heads and intake are better on either Explorer engine, but the 93 Couger motor probably has the better cam. Reportedly it uses the Mustang Cobra cam. ... Cobra cam in an Explorer engine works very nicely though, it basically becomes a 1993 Cobra at that point.
                        so the cougar cam could go in the explorer motor? (but then which EEC would i need?)

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        If you're planning to stick with manifolds, 1990 Towncar tubular manifolds will work with P heads, and I'd run them no matter what engine you go with vs the iron lumps.
                        so are those "tubulars" the stock manifold on any '90 towncar?

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        None of these will have timing covers that are useful to you. You'll need a stock one off any box.
                        thanks for the tip... these are the kind of details i worry about trying to pull this off.

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        The Couger oil pan will work, the Explorer pan will not.
                        also good to know! hell, a big reason i'm even considering this is because my current pan is jacked.

                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        Explorers also will need the threaded dingus that goes into the block where the oil filter is ... You can in theory steal this from your stock motor, or you can get a new one for not much money.
                        not sure i want to google "threaded dingus"...

                        hmmm... decisions, decisions.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by sinistral View Post
                          thanks a million, gadget. very helpful.


                          but if i can get a complete explorer motor for less than $200, i figure i could get a rebuild kit from summit or jegs for also about that, and maybe have refreshed HO for ~$500?
                          If you're rebuilding, it won't matter a great deal. Still, if one seems to be obscenely well used, skip it. If its too horribly beat it may need a bore job or a crank replacement or something. If it looks like its been rolled, I might pass on that too. I had an intake off a rolled Explorer that had cracks. They were welded up and it was functional but skip that nonsense if you can help it.

                          so the cougar cam could go in the explorer motor? (but then which EEC would i need?)
                          It can. Stock mass air Mustang ECM would control this OK. It would be more OK with some tuning but it'll certainly run and be drivable without it.

                          so are those "tubulars" the stock manifold on any '90 towncar?
                          Yes. One year and one-model part, but all of them got it.



                          also good to know! hell, a big reason i'm even considering this is because my current pan is jacked.
                          Any Fox oil pan also works. They are the same as what we got. The magical Mustang 351 swap oil pan is in fact a Crown Victoria part. The one single part our cars have donated to the high performance world

                          not sure i want to google "threaded dingus"...

                          hmmm... decisions, decisions.
                          I think its officially named an oil filter adapter, but you've seen it. Remove the oil filter from your car, and its the thing sticking out of the block that the filter threads on to. There is a big hex nut at the base of it, and if you cuss in the right language you can un-screw that from the motor. the Explorers just have the threaded hole in the side of the motor because the oil cooler mounted on that way. Its more or less a pipe nipple, though I don't believe its pipe thread on either end.
                          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                          Originally posted by phayzer5
                          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                          Comment


                            #43
                            to summarize thus far...

                            okay, mostly for my own good (way too many factors rattling around my brain!), allow me to think out loud:

                            option 1)
                            a near-complete, running 5.0 from a '90 Mustang with 55K miles (sale would not include exhaust or harness/EEC).
                            seller reports leaky rear main, but otherwise good -- still in car until sold so i could hear it / drive it.

                            for this i'd need to at least do seals / gaskets (so probably a rebuild kit anyway); find a '90+ harness and EEC (only from mustang, right, since it would be MAF?); and (if i recall from other threads) "flip" the upper intake and so some minor mods to throttle / TV.

                            pros: low-ish miles, MAF, "car" engine, seller would pull motor
                            cons: not as much potential as explorer swap, more $$ than option 2

                            option 2)
                            a complete junkyard motor from either '96 or '97 explorer, potentially for about $175 if timing is right.

                            for this i'd need a harness and EEC from either a '90-'91 panther (??) or '86-'88 mustang ... <-- not completely sure if that's right -- but there's a chance it would run "stupid" with SD, so alternately would need to upgrade to MAF from '89+ mustang instead
                            i'd still need the rebuild kit, and would need to also replace springs in GT40 heads. i think this upper intake also would need to flipped, etc. also need oil pan from panther or fox.

                            pros: better internals, better heads, better intake
                            cons: technically "truck" motor, but i could pass it off (kinda) as a '93 mustang; MAF-conversion on top of swap; i'd pull motor from yard

                            in either case i need a new timing cover. i guess in both cases i also need to address exhaust. (so we'll call that a wash.)

                            what am i forgetting (or getting wrong)?

                            Comment


                              #44
                              P.S.
                              earlier (important) question i don't think got answered: is my CFI fuel system compatible w/ either of these SEFI swaps??

                              Comment


                                #45
                                looking at my own post above: if i went with option 1, i suppose i could upgrade to explorer heads, right? additional $$, but the MAF / EEC would deal with it, right?
                                also, my harness would need to be '89-'95 mustang, right (before they went to OBDII)?

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