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1987 mgm battery size, diagnosing and fixing no crank

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    #31
    I obtained a voltmeter. The battery is 12.43 post to post. Bypassing the ignition circuit yields 12.23 at the relay output, and an immediate turn off of interior lights when repeated with the starter cable connected. It's near 0 resistance between the disconnected starter cable, probably through the starter, to the neg. battery post. After a Saturday rain out a mechanic promises a visit on Sunday. So I think removing the starter, I take it for bench testing, and he starts pulling the plugs, followed by sta-bil oil fogging the cylinders, a half rotation, then more fogging, and more rotation. If he brings a battery terminal tool and a piece of sandpaper, we clan clean electrical connections. A preliminary test with a small diameter improvised siphon tube indicates an empty gas tank, and there's insufficient sound from that area to confirm the few initial seconds of fuel pump operation upon ignition > run.
    If the car isn't running by about noon Monday, it'll need to be towed off the property to avoid impoundment by the condo manager.
    The only repair shop still in business that's worked on the car here in SC has relentlessly overcharged, such as 6 quart oil changes, sometimes after about 400 miles. So I expect high estimates from whoever gets a job on the car for the first time when a second opinion requires another towing charge.
    Has anyone replaced a gas tank with too much rust and/or gas residue sludge to be cleaned for reinstallation?
    Last edited by jim; 10-20-2019, 02:17 AM. Reason: typo
    1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

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      #32
      Originally posted by jaywish View Post
      I would still bang on the starter next. It is actually a fairly standard diagnostic technique. Also it can get you out of a jam and save a tow provided you can squeeze under with something heavy to hit it with.
      If the engine turns over or starts after a few good wacks you typically need to replace the starter regardless of whatever other problems there are.
      I was able to get close enough under the car for a few whacks, or maybe taps, with a hammer, but no change when I subsequently tried to crank. Should whacking be simultaneous with the cranking attempt, if a helper ever shows up?
      1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

      Comment


        #33
        Your battery needs to be charged or tested at the terminal post not the cable ends.
        Technically at 12.43 you are close to showing a partial discharge of the battery.
        This being said 12.43 should spin the starter over, You will need a cheap battery terminal cleaner and a good small wire brush. Sand paper is not the best option for cleaning all the connectors you will need to clean.

        Cleaning battery cables and related connections is probably the simplest and cheapest service you can do by yourself, I am sure there is a bunch of videos covering this minor service to be found on YouTube if you need help. Heck even dollar stores will have the tools you need. and you do not need a battery terminal puller to remove the cables from the battery. A simple twist will remove them once you loosen the bolt you may need a flat blade screw driver to spread out the cable ends a little.

        It seems like with the little bit you have done over 4 years it is very unlikely you will get everything you need done within your time line.
        Time for plan B and find somewhere to tow you car where it can be worked on or you may have to consider a fire sale and get rid of it as it.

        These cars are cheap and a running one can be found at a later date when you can afford it.

        Any yes when you are ready for the hammer test this is normally done with someone operating the ignition switch. But again I advise against that until you get the fuel system cleaned out.

        Tapping on the starter at this point even if it gets the engine cranking will only deepen the mystery because the impact could jar a poor electrical connection causing the starter to work or it could be a poor connection at the brushes that cause it to work.

        Clean the cables know they are good and if you have time and jumper cables pull the starter and bench test it.

        All of this could have been done by my wife who has never turned a wrench in her life if she was properly motivated and watched just a few how to videos online.

        Come on man get with the program before you lose your car do not just sit there for yet another no show.

        At this point I would smell the fuel if it smells bad ( like Varnish ) abandon all hope of fixing it there ( find another location right away)
        and use your helper with a tow rope if needed to get the car the hell out of there. Only do the tow rope if you cannot afford a proper tow.

        Heck you just need someone with a Valid AAA membership to donate a tow to your cause and you could get it towed for free.
        2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

        Comment


          #34
          This thread brings back memories of when I sold Chilton Labor Guides to the trade..Christ that was over 35 years ago.....those were great days.. sorry for the thread hi-jack.
          Originally posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
          Jim you have a car that not only does not start but has been sitting for years with who knows what else has gone wrong while it was sitting.
          This means mice could have infiltrated your ride and had a nice snack of your wiring, hoses, seat insulation etc.

          Anything could have happened to it including whatever you have done accidentally without knowing to the car possibly making the problem worse.

          While the initial problem may be a minor easy to find and repair issue the unknown is keeping the mechanics away.

          The only way someone will come out is if they are slow enough and need the work you are offering which is unknown diagnostic work.
          ( think about the amount of hand and diagnostic tools they "may" need to bring with them)

          If your running vehicle needed a cut and dry job like a water pump , radiator , shocks, brakes, etc anything they can agree with you a price on before hand and it is in their benefit to come out and bang out your car they will show up in a hurry.

          They will be less motivated to agree to diagnostic work that has a time limit or cap on it especially going to your location to do the diagnostics.
          You would be far much better off having your vehicle towed to someone you trust to do the work at their location where they keep their diagnostic equipment, battery chargers, and bulk of their tools and them let them work on it while they are waiting on parts or have spare time.

          I know if I was a mobile tech I would be all in on a timing belt job done right when I get to replace all the needed parts knowing I was doing it right and getting paid good to do the work. Ask me to do the same timing belt job and not put seals, tensioner, Water pump etc and just want the belt installed I would skip it and move on to a job that will pay me what I am worth also allowing me with no restrictions on parts to do the job right the first time.

          Any commission mechanic worth their salt is going to charge book rate for a certain job and do that job in less time because of their knowledge tricks, specialty tools etc which speeds up the job. but they all expect to get paid five hours for a five hour quoted job even if they do it in 1 hour.

          The only question is at that point are you paying full boat retail labor rates of north of 100 bucks an hour or are you getting a discount because they are working as a mobile mechanic.

          Most mobile mechanics will pad the labor time because they know they are saving you money on towing, and shop labor rates plus giving you the convenience of not having to leave the house.

          All this being said it is not looking good for you to have any off craigslist or offer up Mobil tech show up to do anything but rip you off.

          With this in mind you can buy cheap harbor freight or any brand tools and do the work yourself.

          Take it one step at a time follow the instructions we provide get the tools necessary as you need it. most of the specialty tools needed can be pick up as loaners through most parts stores( you just have to pay up front for them and get a refund once they are returned)

          Socket sets,wrenches, screwdrivers, repair manual should already be part of your inventory if not what little you need to buy outright can be picked up cheap.

          If you cannot afford to buy the minimal cheap tools and supplies needed to do the minimal work I and others have suggested you do not stand a chance of getting this car repaired at this time.

          Comment


            #35
            Derek I was never able to figure out why "Miami Bob" assumed additional identities??.....I always enjoyed his posts....what did he do to eff up his part of this group?
            Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
            LoL whoa, yah, Necro thread.
            Memories of Miamibob & his alterego Topaz come right back to the forefront of my mind. Those were the days



            I think what you need to get is a "For Sale Sign." That's the solution to your trouble right there. Not trying to be a dick or anything just giving you my honest opinion after rereading the thread and analyzing the situation, elapsed time, skill level and tools on hand.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Toploader View Post
              Derek I was never able to figure out why "Miami Bob" assumed additional identities??.....I always enjoyed his posts....what did he do to eff up his part of this group?
              Yeah, he was cool until he started to become all pretentious and ostentatious by fabricobbling stories together and trying to attract sympathy. When he was under a lot of scrutiny, he created the alterego to try and take the heat off by fabricating a sob story that he was sick or something like that. He had a very unique way of typing his messages, and Topaz seemed to type exactly the same way. I even went so far as to say in one of Topaz's posts something along the lines of "Hey, you type just like MiamiBob!" LoL... It was then that I had the epiphany and not long after someone else called him out on his krap and off to Teh Battlefield it went.
              1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
              1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

              Comment


                #37
                Am I missing something here? whats with all this garbage being spewed? why this thread?

                I agree it seems that the OP is beyond help we can provide as it is just not sinking in. Do you guys think the OP is up to something?
                2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
                  Am I missing something here? whats with all this garbage being spewed? why this thread?...
                  Easy there greenhorn. This goes back a ways, one of the old timers on the forum. I think you should go back to the beginning of this necro thread and then scan for posts from "Miamibob". The rest of the story is up to you to hunt down.

                  Originally posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
                  ...I agree it seems that the OP is beyond help we can provide as it is just not sinking in. Do you guys think the OP is up to something?
                  Well, that's why I recommended selling the car in its current state. No one listens to sound advice. "All eyes in jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
                  1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                  1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
                    Easy there greenhorn. This goes back a ways, one of the old timers on the forum. I think you should go back to the beginning of this necro thread and then scan for posts from "Miamibob". The rest of the story is up to you to hunt down.
                    87Topaz was the screen name in this case. Totally unrelated to the OP, but coming back years later to reply and the rest of us seeing either of those screen names brings back memories of a crazy time.

                    Sort of related to the topic at hand:
                    I'm no stranger to buying old crap and making a DD out of it. I also highly don't recommend this to just anyone. Lots of things randomly (seemingly, there is, of course, a logical explanation) go bad when a vehicle sits. My current winter ride sat for about as long as I've now had it on the road before I bought it. I've had it on the road 7 years as of last week. So many things went bad after I fixed the initial problem(s), it was almost comical.
                    Current summer car sat for about a year before I bought it. Ran into a couple of the same problems initially with that one as well.
                    Sitting for extended periods of time does no favors to vehicles, and it's not usually a simple fix like was already mentioned, it's often more than one problem.

                    Unfortunately I have nothing useful to add, so I'll let the OP stick with the very good advice EaOutlaw1969 has provided.
                    Last edited by VicCrownVic; 10-21-2019, 02:58 PM.
                    Vic

                    ~ 1989 MGM LS Colony Park - Large Marge
                    ~ 1998 MGM LS - new DD
                    ~ 1991 MGM LS "The Scab"
                    ~ 1991 MGM GS "The Ice Car"

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
                      Easy there greenhorn. This goes back a ways, one of the old timers on the forum. I think you should go back to the beginning of this necro thread and then scan for posts from "Miamibob". The rest of the story is up to you to hunt down.



                      Well, that's why I recommended selling the car in its current state. No one listens to sound advice. "All eyes in jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
                      I looked in the way back files and it does seem weird at minimum that the OP and MB had a 87 MGM HMM ( been sitting for 4 years ) too coincidental for me.
                      2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Saturday was a rain out, but Chris said he'd come with tools on Sunday at nine. Then he said eleven, and finally showed up after one. I was apprehensive as he jacked the passenger side front with a jack missing the handle, but with a vice grip as a substitute. He started to remove the starter as I worked on terminals with the worn out metal brush of the battery terminal tool. With the 1987 starter in hand, I headed to the O’Reilly store, which had a working bench tester, as Chris pulled the plugs. The test results were that it spun but didn't retract properly. So I bought some Stabil oil spray and plug grease. As Chris finished the plugs, cylinder lubrication, and cleaning the engine ground connection, I ordered a rebuilt starter on the computer and headed to the Advance store five times further away than O'Reilly. Their test result was no spin, nada. I returned with sandwiches and cokes. After our break, Chris rotated the motor so easily that we decided to skip more lubrication and replaced the plugs. With the new starter installed, the crank attempt yielded the same no spin and interior light failure as when all this started. It seems that the relay, which always kathunked, would register voltage at the disconnected output terminal, but failed under load. So it was off to the closer Advance where the budget relay had shorter terminal bolts, the first upgrade was out of stock, so I went with the premium model. With some more relay connectors meeting the wire brush, the new relay was installed. Finally, after four years, the car cranked, although the positive battery cable connector was too rusted to tighten, and crackled a bit.
                        So now we worked on starting. With two of us we confirmed no fuel pump sound upon ignition>run. Without a proper siphon tube or pump, fuel amount is unknown. With a leftover oxygen hose I could hear no bubbles while blowing, and gagged on the varnishy fumes during the sucking. So it was time for the loaner multimeter and the green fuel pump relay, which Chris said fired upon key>start. So after less than half a day, Chris asked for $85, but I paid $90, plus lunch. Parts and supplies were less than $100, and I have plenty of oil spray left over for the Buick in Florida.
                        Monday was my last day in town, so I visited about eight shops to see if I could find an alternative to the one with a $90 rate and no customer parts allowed. Some wouldn't work on an older than obd-2 car, some had no space for storage, and only one had a lower ($72) base rate. Some tow trucks preferred by several shops quoted $65 to $75, and one shop had a truck, but broken that day. So with number five I was charged $55, perhaps because their office was close to the selected shop. The car was left at the shop, and I left town for a month.
                        1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Round 2

                          I'm back, and ready to proceed to fuel system repair. Since the battery is done and cranking has been achieved, should I start a "no start" thread or continue here? Dropping the tank and replacing the fuel pump may be next. I'll search the archives for some hints, but my initial question is this: are there any accessible electrical connections to check between the relay and the pump?
                          1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Hey Jim.

                            Since I've looked at this car, and ridden it in before with you - how about I come by one day and check it out? I do not have a lot of free time these days - but I can offer up a little time.

                            It takes spark, fuel, and air to make combustion. Rare to have a problem with air.

                            There are so many possibilities what's wrong. Don't replace anything before diagnosing...I have a fuel pressure tester gauge, a volt meter, and a test light. I don't have my 87 diagrams anymore but Kodachrome Wolf has them - if needed maybe he can take a pic with his phone and send to me.
                            -Nick M.
                            Columbia, SC

                            66 Squire, 89 Colony Park, 90 TC, 03 TC, 06 TC, 07 TC (2x)
                            03 BMW 540iT, 07 Toyota Tundra SR5 Dbl Cab/5.7 2WD

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Nick,

                              Thanks for your offer to help. It's been sitting at a shop's secure lot for six weeks. They want to do the diagnostics and repair, or they'll charge for storage. Here are my suggestions for them:
                              Check the battery and recharge if needed.
                              Suck, siphon, or pump the the 4 year old gas out of the tank.
                              Spray some ether in the intake and try to start to confirm working spark and compression.
                              With ignition>run, check for 12 volts at the inertial switch input connector, and work back to the pump relay and ignition switch if power isn't there.
                              Check the disconnected inertial switch for almost 0 resistance, and bypass it if bad.
                              Check for voltage at the pump cable connector, which seems difficult to access.
                              Replace the fuel pump, which seems to require dropping the tank, which could be cleaned, at least at the bottom near the pump.
                              What do you think about this plan?

                              If I were doing it in Florida, I'd probably just get the pump, but perhaps getting the kit with a new hanger, screen, and sender is better here. O'Reilly has a $90 Precision model that gets high failure rate reviews. The NAPA piece is expensive to me. Advance doesn't show a kit on their site. I hate trying Amazon for an Airtex or Spectrum, but with Prime it's quick. Where would you source it in Columbia?

                              While the fuel line is disconnected at the pump, could it be reverse flushed with compressed air from the filter input? And then reverse flush from the rail, or nearby, to the filter output end?

                              Jim
                              Last edited by jim; 12-05-2019, 08:52 AM. Reason: typo
                              1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                If you have it at a shop save your suggestions for yourself, Technicians tend to get offended when owners tell them how to do their job.
                                If they know it does not start or run and has been sitting for many years they will know what to do. If they have to come to you for advice, you have it with the wrong guys.
                                2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

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