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1987 mgm battery size, diagnosing and fixing no crank

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    #16
    have you wacked the starter?
    03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
    02 SL500 Silver Arrow
    08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
    12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

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      #17
      The starter whack is the first thing to try after someone with a jack and jack stands gets here. I don't have many tools at this location, and the first two mobile mechanics haven't called back or have a non-working phone number.
      1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

      Comment


        #18
        Let me see if I got this in my head correct, The car started and ran fine until one day you went out to start the car way back in October of 2015 then it just would not crank the engine over. Is this correct?

        And now finally after all this time you bought a battery, installed it and now you have the same symptom?

        Am I on board with what has happened to date?

        Has anything else at all been done with this car to prepare it for long term storage?

        Has any of the work suggested by other members in the past been completed like cleaning the battery cables ends at the battery and at the starter plus solenoid?

        This car has been sitting for 4 years now which has given plenty of time for the fuel to become stale even with fuel stabilizer in it. Same goes with the engine oil and other fluids they all need to get changed.

        If I were you I would start with the basics, First check with a large ratchet and socket at the crankshaft and make sure the engine spins over by hand after pulling the spark plugs and adding a little marvel mystery oil or hell any oil at this point to each cylinder make sure it rotates two full rotations in the normal direction of rotation.

        Then disable the fuel pump by tripping the inertia switch or unplugging it.

        Clean the battery cable connections at the battery at the starter solenoid and starter if the terminal ends are not original remove them from the cables and inspect the cables for corrosion, if the wiring has corrosion replace the battery cables. ( make sure to remove all the grounds check the connections clean and or replace as needed)

        There is no magic circuit breaker that is tripping and resetting so get that notion out of your head. ( this is not complicated )

        Once you have known good power and ground connections at every point mentioned with the key off go ahead and remove the ignition switch wire at the the starter solenoid and run a jumper wire from battery positive to the small stud on the solenoid and lightly touch the jumper wire to that stud. The starter should crank for as long as you hold the jumper wire to the starter.

        If it the starter does not spin over you could have a bad solenoid or starter or both could be bad. They are both cheap enough to just replace them with good quality parts. Or you could continue to diagnose it if you have a DVOM and amp meter. A volt meter alone will only tell you part of what may be wrong meaning you could check and find the needed voltage at the starter but not the amperage.

        Which is why I think it would be best just to replace both the starter and solenoid if cleaning the connections do not help. I say this for a few reasons the age and time these parts have been sitting not working.

        I suggested disabling the fuel pump because if your fuel is 4 years old you will at minimum want to drain and flush the tank, replace the filter flush the fuel lines before just sending that crap to your injectors regulator etc and causing more problems ( which may already need work because of age and sitting )

        I am not sure how long it takes before your fuel will turn from a varnish to a molten tar like substance but I would say with today's fuel it is safe to say it is not looking promising for the fuel delivery system.
        2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

        Comment


          #19
          EA, thanks for the detailed plan. You have a good picture of my neglect of the car. If I can get someone to show up with a plug wrench, a breaker bar, and crank socket, we can pull the plugs, pour in some MM oil, and turn the engine. How about letting the MM sit for a day, rotate 1/2, add more MM, let it sit, and rotate 1 1/2 or so? Where's the fuel pump inertia switch and/or relay? When I get a hold of a jack and stands, I can check the connections at the starter. When the multimeter worked the resistance from the fat cable off of the relay to ground at the battery was only an ohm or two. Is that normal or indicative of a short? If the voltage drop from the battery to the relay output, with the cable off of it, is less than about 0.8 volts, does that point towards adequate available amperage at that location, and a functioning relay, neutral cut out, and ignition switch? What might cause the interior lights to go out immediately after the start attempt at the ignition switch, and then come back on after disconnecting and reconnecting the negative battery terminal?
          Thanks again for your help.
          1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

          Comment


            #20
            First things first and most important, Keep this problem simple and do one thing at a time. and please do not over think it with voltage drops and specifics without the correct tools knowledge manuals etc you will just end up chasing your tail.

            The inertia switch is normally mounted in the trunk on the right possibly left inside quarter panel behind the carpeting I do not remember where for sure on your car. A quick YouTube or google search may help. once located you will see a red button that will be pushed in you can smack the metal near or at the switch with a rubber mallet or something to cause the switch to trip you will see the red plunger pop up and stay up. just push the button back down when your ready to activate the pump again.

            As far as pulling the plugs and adding a little ( about 1 ounce per cylinder is all that should be needed ) and yes let it sit before rotating longer the better.

            A few reasons I suggested pulling the plugs and adding oil to each cylinder then trying to rotate the engine by hand. First I do not know if your engine stopped running and or cranking from a mechanical failure, unknown overheating issue, bearing, oil pump failure etc that could have locked up the engine. ( Why try and diagnose a starter battery wires if you have a shot engine ) .

            Second it has been sitting so long adding a little MM oil will help lubricate the cylinder walls and rings which will hopefully bring up the compression and possibly free up any rings that may be stuck to the pistons.

            Since the car has been sitting and there is a possibility of critters getting into places where they should be make sure to pull the air cleaner and check the filter is clean and housing is free of debris and rats nest etc.

            Make sure to label each plug wire so you do not cross wire the engine when you put it back together.

            If and when you get the engine cranking over you will need to have towels in place over the plug holes and below to collect the oil that gets shot out during cranking, and you will want to crank the engine over long enough in short burst to get most of the oil out.

            A couple cans of non flammable brake clean once the plugs are put back in will help clean up any oil that got on the exhaust.

            If you cannot stand it and just want to get technical and want to test something with a DVOM make sure your new battery is fully charged and really is in good working order and not NEW meaning ( never ever works )

            BTW the lights coming on then going out after a crank attempt then coming back after waiting tells me you have bad connections.

            Since tools, manuals,money and time may be an issue, again lets keep this simple and try not to waste any of it.
            Cleaning and inspecting all the cables terminals ends etc should really cost you nothing, at minimum you will need a wire brush and or battery terminal cleaner tool, possibly some sand paper to clean off ground contacts on the block and frame body etc.

            Whatever you do do not just look at a connector and say hey that looks good and move on to the next without removing each connection one by one and wire brush sand etc each connection. take pictures mark wires etc to make sure you get everything back together properly especially at the solenoid, do one connection at a time to avoid confusion. there are not that many wires but there is enough that you could get them confused when reassembling them if you removed them all at once.

            BTW you should have factory fusible links at the starter solenoid that feed power to different parts of the car once you get the wiring connections cleaned up at the solenoid feel these links by grabbing them with your fingers with both hands and give them a genital tug, corrosion can and will eat away at these links causing all sorts of issues where the only thing holding the link together is the corrosion and a strand or two of eaten wire if severely corroded the insulation will stretch and the what is left of the wire strands will snap making it known and obvious these links must be replaced.

            Even if they look good and feel good with nice freshly cleaned connections with a razor and carefully shave a little of the insulation trying not to hurt the strands of wire and see if the wire strands are corroded if they are in good shape just tape up the inspected area with some good electrical tape. if they are shot solder in good replacements but make sure to replace the entire link at the factory splice or further down line slightly if need to get to fresh non corroded wire.
            2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
              Let me see if I got this in my head correct, The car started and ran fine until one day you went out to start the car way back in October of 2015 then it just would not crank the engine over. Is this correct?

              And now finally after all this time you bought a battery, installed it and now you have the same symptom?

              Am I on board with what has happened to date?

              Has anything else at all been done with this car to prepare it for long term storage?

              Has any of the work suggested by other members in the past been completed like cleaning the battery cables ends at the battery and at the starter plus solenoid?...

              ...This car has been sitting for 4 years now which has given plenty of time for the fuel to become stale even with fuel stabilizer in it. Same goes with the engine oil and other fluids they all need to get changed...

              ...There is no magic circuit breaker that is tripping and resetting so get that notion out of your head. ( this is not complicated )...
              LoL whoa, yah, Necro thread.
              Memories of Miamibob & his alterego Topaz come right back to the forefront of my mind. Those were the days

              Originally posted by jim View Post
              EA, thanks for the detailed plan. You have a good picture of my neglect of the car. If I can get someone to show up with a plug wrench, a breaker bar, and crank socket,...
              I think what you need to get is a "For Sale Sign." That's the solution to your trouble right there. Not trying to be a dick or anything just giving you my honest opinion after rereading the thread and analyzing the situation, elapsed time, skill level and tools on hand.
              1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
              1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

              Comment


                #22
                What happened ? do we need to wait another 4 years to hear back from you? come one we are here for you.
                2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                Comment


                  #23
                  The man with tools was scheduled to show up at noon for $100. Now he texts that his e-t-a is about 4 pm. Hopefully it won't rain again today. The other six guys are on vacation, too busy, or won't call back. With the deadline approaching, I'm going to try an oil fogger rather than M-M oil for the first cylinder wall lubes, and maybe M-M after 180 degrees motor rotation. I searched here for fuel system flush service hints but found none. I'm considering siphoning the old, varnish smelling, fuel, adding a gallon or two of new gas, some kind of cleaner for the tank and line, pulling the filter, jumping the pump relay and hoping some new gas flows after a minute or so. From the rail to the filter, perhaps plugging the return, rigging a connection from a Schrader adapter to some compressed air and reverse flushing there, and maybe getting some cleaner directly into the vacated rail and line before attaching the new filter. What kind of injector cleaner is good for this situation? O-T-O-H maybe someone who's done this before has a better plan. After the cylinder and electrical connections service I could jump the fender relay start wire with the output cable off to test the relay, and then repeat with the cable on to see if the starter spins. If it doesn't, should I try again with the mechanic whacking the starter? When I can eventually crank, I'll replace the fuel pump relay, the plugs, and try for a start. By the way where is the fuel pump relay and Schrader adapter plug located? Once it's running, is painting the connections with dielectric paste worth the time and expense? How about thread lock for the starter bolts, if they're pulled?
                  1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    I think if you follow the information provided already and not stray from these instructions you will do fine.

                    Hitting the starter is not a diagnostic step that I would go by. Loctite is not needed or wanted on starter bolts just correct torque for the bolts is all that is needed. I would not use the fuel pump to try and purge the tank of fuel.

                    If you want to empty the tank, I suggest using a siphon hose which can be found online or your local parts house for cheap.

                    https://www.amazon.com/Gas-Siphon-Or...ef_=ast_slp_dp

                    As old as the fuel is in this vehicle I would suspect sludge has formed by now the only way to know for sure is to pull the tank when empty or near empty and inspect it. No amount of cleaner will flush this stuff out without removing the tank.

                    Dielectric grease can be found super cheap, if you are worried about the cost of that perhaps your budget may not be ready to revive this dead car.

                    Remember first things first, we need to know the engine can be turned over by hand and is not locked up, we need to know you have cleaned every single battery cable connection and ground at both ends and at the starter plus solenoid.

                    Then you need to change the oil and filter crank the engine over with the starter and the fuel pump disabled. provided you got this far and built up oil pressure while cranking. after that do a compression test making sure each cylinder is good proving the engine is good or at least worth going further.

                    Then and only then you need to worry about the fuel system, brakes, cooling system, etc
                    2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                    Comment


                      #25
                      If "man with tools" is not your personal friend, do not hire him. Him make you life worse. Just sell the car man, a great burden of anxiety & stress will be lifted from you as a result.
                      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Mechanic #8 didn't show at noon, rescheduled to 4:00, didn't show, and today isn't answering or returning calls. Number 7 said on Tuesday he'd come today, but isn't answering or returning calls. Number 9 says he's busy until Saturday. The others are on vacation, busy indefinitely, or not answering or returning calls. Has anyone actually gotten a mobile mechanic to show up and wrench? All I'm offering is cash. Am I missing some motivating factor?
                        Derek, the grand marquis has been in the family since new. I maintained it from 1990 to 1994, and don't plan to sell it until it's running and I find something I like better. I have houses I've been trying to get fixed for years. I'm just not paying $120 to $180 per hour for mechanics or tradesmen, which is what I'm often quoted. Anxiety and stress is a way of life for those of us with limited tools and skills.
                        1987 Grand Marquis LS two door, trying to get to the 60,000 mile mark.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Jim you have a car that not only does not start but has been sitting for years with who knows what else has gone wrong while it was sitting.
                          This means mice could have infiltrated your ride and had a nice snack of your wiring, hoses, seat insulation etc.

                          Anything could have happened to it including whatever you have done accidentally without knowing to the car possibly making the problem worse.

                          While the initial problem may be a minor easy to find and repair issue the unknown is keeping the mechanics away.

                          The only way someone will come out is if they are slow enough and need the work you are offering which is unknown diagnostic work.
                          ( think about the amount of hand and diagnostic tools they "may" need to bring with them)

                          If your running vehicle needed a cut and dry job like a water pump , radiator , shocks, brakes, etc anything they can agree with you a price on before hand and it is in their benefit to come out and bang out your car they will show up in a hurry.

                          They will be less motivated to agree to diagnostic work that has a time limit or cap on it especially going to your location to do the diagnostics.
                          You would be far much better off having your vehicle towed to someone you trust to do the work at their location where they keep their diagnostic equipment, battery chargers, and bulk of their tools and them let them work on it while they are waiting on parts or have spare time.

                          I know if I was a mobile tech I would be all in on a timing belt job done right when I get to replace all the needed parts knowing I was doing it right and getting paid good to do the work. Ask me to do the same timing belt job and not put seals, tensioner, Water pump etc and just want the belt installed I would skip it and move on to a job that will pay me what I am worth also allowing me with no restrictions on parts to do the job right the first time.

                          Any commission mechanic worth their salt is going to charge book rate for a certain job and do that job in less time because of their knowledge tricks, specialty tools etc which speeds up the job. but they all expect to get paid five hours for a five hour quoted job even if they do it in 1 hour.

                          The only question is at that point are you paying full boat retail labor rates of north of 100 bucks an hour or are you getting a discount because they are working as a mobile mechanic.

                          Most mobile mechanics will pad the labor time because they know they are saving you money on towing, and shop labor rates plus giving you the convenience of not having to leave the house.

                          All this being said it is not looking good for you to have any off craigslist or offer up Mobil tech show up to do anything but rip you off.

                          With this in mind you can buy cheap harbor freight or any brand tools and do the work yourself.

                          Take it one step at a time follow the instructions we provide get the tools necessary as you need it. most of the specialty tools needed can be pick up as loaners through most parts stores( you just have to pay up front for them and get a refund once they are returned)

                          Socket sets,wrenches, screwdrivers, repair manual should already be part of your inventory if not what little you need to buy outright can be picked up cheap.

                          If you cannot afford to buy the minimal cheap tools and supplies needed to do the minimal work I and others have suggested you do not stand a chance of getting this car repaired at this time.
                          2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I would still bang on the starter next. It is actually a fairly standard diagnostic technique. Also it can get you out of a jam and save a tow provided you can squeeze under with something heavy to hit it with.
                            If the engine turns over or starts after a few good wacks you typically need to replace the starter regardless of whatever other problems there are.

                            I can't remember but can you wack the starter form the top on these cars with a long metal object (e.g. pipe) and a hammer?

                            The advise on selling the car is probably logical but sentiment gets in the way of logic. At least you heard the good well intended "Dutch Uncle" suggestion.
                            03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                            02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                            08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                            12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                            Comment


                              #29
                              I agree smacking a starter on a normal car that will not crank over may be a quick and easy way to get someone out of a jam.

                              On this car I am not suggesting it because of the circumstances, a bad connection at the starter could be jostled causing the starter to work once tapped with a pipe or hammer may only lead to confusion leading to a part replacement that may not be needed.

                              My old 2000 grand marquis had a intermittent no crank that would crank sometimes after slamming the drivers door shut, caused by a bad connection at the starter.

                              At this point the owner of the car will have to do something on his own since he is unable to get someone out to his location and he is not willing to pay full boat parts and labor to have the problems repaired professionally.
                              2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                              Comment


                                #30
                                One thing that I like about this town is I can still get rebuilt starters & alternators dirt cheap at the reman shop. Ususally cheaper than discounted parts counter prices. Not saying you should replace good parts for no reason but it is something folks may want to look for in general in their local area so they can save a few bucks.
                                03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                                02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                                08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                                12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

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