11" Drum brake upgrade questions

[gadget73]

11" drum swap and disc swap are effectively the same, its just a backing plate swap and some fairly minor re-plumbing. No need to swap the whole housing.

[DerekTheGreat]

Guess I'll just stick with the 10" drummies. Which calipers & backing plates would I need for the disc swap though? Is a custom job or would things from a Mark VII work? Which proportioning valve would I need and is there a direct swap for the stock panther stuff?

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Don't touch the Mk7 stuff, it's a disaster that you want no business with!

You can get the brakes from any '92-'97 aero car. Later '98-'02 setup can also work in a pinch, but the calipers will sit right on top of the axle. Buy new e-brake cables for the car that's donating the disc brake parts, but from the same donor car do grab the metal bracket that joins the two rear cables together as it's not available from the aftermarket.

Regarding the prop valve, you can leave your factory junk in place if you're feeling lazy and it won't effectively mess anything up. But if you're going with all new parts there's no reason not to use an aero master cylinder and bypass the box prop valve altogether - the aero cylinder has its valve screwed directly into its rear port.

[DerekTheGreat]

Don't touch the Mk7 stuff, it's a disaster that you want no business with!

LoL, good to know. Have a buddy what wants to sell me a wrecked one for $600 and that was an idea I was tossing around.. What's the disaster part of it?

You can get the brakes from any '92-'97 aero car. Later '98-'02 setup can also work in a pinch, but the calipers will sit right on top of the axle. Buy new e-brake cables for the car that's donating the disc brake parts, but from the same donor car do grab the metal bracket that joins the two rear cables together as it's not available from the aftermarket.

Oh, duh. Don't know why it didn't occur to me to think about those. So you just need the backing plates, associated hardware from the '92-'97 donor and that bracket?

Regarding the prop valve, you can leave your factory junk in place if you're feeling lazy and it won't effectively mess anything up. But if you're going with all new parts there's no reason not to use an aero master cylinder and bypass the box prop valve altogether - the aero cylinder has its valve screwed directly into its rear port.

"Factory Junk" lol. I'm certainly lazy.. So that's what that thing is on the master of those later cars. Sounds like I'd need to bend new lines too. Toss up for me now. I'm lazy combined with new house activities and making bets as to whether or not the pads will last through the winter or not. If all this house crap was out of the way I'd at least throw new shoes & hardware at it along with powdercoated drums by yours truly.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

LoL, good to know. Have a buddy what wants to sell me a wrecked one for $600 and that was an idea I was tossing around.. What's the disaster part of it?

Inegrated parking brake calipers. As in the caliper is both your service brake and parking brake, there's a lever that sticks out of its rear face and the cable attaches to that. Inside the piston is on a screw, you have to adjust its height just right when putting the works together or at lead for a while you'll have lousy brakes. Avoid said design if at all possible, regardless of manufacturer.

Oh, duh. Don't know why it didn't occur to me to think about those. So you just need the backing plates, associated hardware from the '92-'97 donor and that bracket?

Yes, backing plates with e-brake hardware, their support brackets are optional but still I suggest you grab them as well. And yes, also the contraption that ties the two rear e-brake cables into one. Take all bolts you remove as well, particularly those for the brake calipers - depending on what year your donor is some of those just bolt the slide pins to the backing plate, but some ARE the slide pins. If calipers, pads, and rotors appear in good shape you can take those as well, that's a judgment call.

"Factory Junk" lol. I'm certainly lazy.. So that's what that thing is on the master of those later cars. Sounds like I'd need to bend new lines too. Toss up for me now. I'm lazy combined with new house activities and making bets as to whether or not the pads will last through the winter or not. If all this house crap was out of the way I'd at least throw new shoes & hardware at it along with powdercoated drums by yours truly.

Yes, bending new lines you will, no big deal tho, use the expensive nicopp stuff and it'll never rust on you again.

Powerdcoated drums are a waste of resources. New brake pads/shoes are not. Replace your frictions if in doubt, if you can't spend $25 on something that keeps your life and those of others around you safe than you really should not be driving anyways. Not trying to sound like a jackass, just well aware of how much damage what I drive can do, so not taking chances. Mine is getting an entire axle swap to gain superior braking, because more is more

[jaywish]

How is the engine in that Mark VII? What year? You can have an easy HO swap. ecm, throttle cables intake, engine, headers, lincoln trans has the higher shift point governor and IIRC the small Torque Converter as well as posi carrier in the rear.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Not all Mk7s have LSD rears tho...

Derek, me reread what you wrote (after some coffee ingestion), seems it's a lack of time to do car work that plagues you, not lack of funding. So I humbly retract my statement about the $25 pads/shoes, however the general point still stands - please do replace your brake frictions if you have any worries regarding their performance, even if it does mean you will have to sacrifice an hour of sleep to do so. I've actually seen them where the friction material separates from the steel backing plate when it gets low, that is certainly not a typical mode of failure but it does happen often enough to be a concern, especially with store-brand parts. Considering the damage that does to other components and the time it takes to fix the whole mess (fawk rotor replacement on factory box brakes!!!) it ain't worth taking the chance IMHO.

[gadget73]

Traction lock was indeed optional. My LSC didn't have it.

[pantera77]

11" drum > 92-97 disk swap any day of the week

No need to hack together the parking brake cables
No stupid drum-in-hat parking brake shoe cluster fuck
No need to swap out the M/C and proportioning valve (yes the stock stuff works with disk but is far from ideal. Why "upgrade" your brakes if you don't want to go through the trouble of swapping in the proper M/C and proportioning valve?)

Honestly the stock drums are fine with decent shoes and properly adjustment.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Stock brakes are fine if you don't have to brake often or for prolonged periods of time, run them down some of the back roads here and things can get interesting if the driver is a flatlander


That said fuck drums! I'm in the process of combining several axles into one just so I can get away from those under-engineered disasterpieces and replace them with the largest most heavy-duty discs that can possibly fit inside my wheels - cause I want nothing to do with brakes that by design lose power as they heat up, nothing to do with them at all, not ever if at all possible

[DerekTheGreat]

How is the engine in that Mark VII? What year? You can have an easy HO swap. ecm, throttle cables intake, engine, headers, lincoln trans has the higher shift point governor and IIRC the small Torque Converter as well as posi carrier in the rear.

He says it was fine. Was Scott's old Mark VII. Wrecked now though. Had 150k ish miles where my car has about 105k on it. I heard it run once, sounded OK. Thought the tailshaft on those is shorter than what the boxes have? Seems like an ideal deal for me as he's nearby and thus I don't have to worry about it making the trip back or renting a trailer. Yet I'm still on the fence because I've got this echo in the brain that says "Why remove your perfectly running engine to put one in you have no history with." Told him if my engine blew up or was blown up I'd snag it but because it isn't I'm on the fence. Especially since we're buying stuff for the house on a regular basis and that's eating away at the garage tool budget. I at least wanted to pick up a garage sale tool box, engine hoist and trans jack to get me started... If I don't have those tools the Mark VII is just going to rot in my backyard alongside my Fury III.

Traction lock was indeed optional. My LSC didn't have it.

My dad's LSC had it but this one does not.

11" drum > 92-97 disk swap any day of the week

No need to hack together the parking brake cables
No stupid drum-in-hat parking brake shoe cluster fuck
No need to swap out the M/C and proportioning valve (yes the stock stuff works with disk but is far from ideal. Why "upgrade" your brakes if you don't want to go through the trouble of swapping in the proper M/C and proportioning valve?)

Honestly the stock drums are fine with decent shoes and properly adjustment.

I agree, if you're going to do one part of it you might as well do it right and upgrade the rest of it to match.
Would need to buy a flaring tool for brake lines and that is on the list but we're still spending money on furniture and other malarkey so afraid to spend money on go fast and stop better stuff. I do think the stock garbage works pretty good. I've done quite a few panic stops that made my butthole pucker but didn't have to swerve off the road like the people behind me in their newer junk. Makes a bloke feel pretty good. Tap & die set would be cool too. As well as an air compressor and related junk...

The powder coated drums would be pretreated & powdered by me Where I work has a few small booths since what we develop is used in conjunction with liquid & powder topcoats. We've got some nice Akzo-Nobel low gloss black stuff laying around.

[pantera77]

Stock brakes are fine if you don't have to brake often or for prolonged periods of time, run them down some of the back roads here and things can get interesting if the driver is a flatlander

I agree, but it's the front brakes that really need the loving. A Big Brake swap will do leagues more than a 11" drum or rear disk swap.

[Bad-Driver1]

11" drum > 92-97 disk swap any day of the week

No need to hack together the parking brake cables
No stupid drum-in-hat parking brake shoe cluster fuck
No need to swap out the M/C and proportioning valve (yes the stock stuff works with disk but is far from ideal. Why "upgrade" your brakes if you don't want to go through the trouble of swapping in the proper M/C and proportioning valve?)

Honestly the stock drums are fine with decent shoes and properly adjustment.

This! (agreed, just don't go cheap, and make sure all the springs and such are in excellent working order,,,)

[jaywish]

The trans has the long tail. The governor is removable. Did not know limited slip was optional.

[gadget73]

Mark VII trans is the same as the Townie trans, but I seem to recall that one being slightly whacky. Shift linkage is different, but nothing you can swap fairly easily.