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Timing Chain Tensioner Problem on Some 2000-2003 Panthers

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    Timing Chain Tensioner Problem on Some 2000-2003 Panthers

    Just thought I'd start a thread about this well-known problem as something of a PSA. For those who don't know about it, the timing chain tensioner arms tend to wear out prematurely in 2000-2003 MGMs and Crown Vics, and apparently also in 2003 Marauders. Ford has a TSB for "grinding type noise from engine timing chain area", and they updated both the tensioners and the arms.

    I was familiar with the problem and knew to be alert for a "sewing machine" type of noise, but I learned recently that the chain can end up wearing into the aluminum part of the tensioner arms without any obvious noise. I haven't heard any noise from my 2000 MGM yet (at over 121,000 miles), but I'm preparing for the eventuality and will likely change the tensioner stuff in the spring/summer. Here's a thread from CVN with further info and links:

    http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/u...46#Post2264046
    Last edited by IPreferDIY; 10-24-2016, 03:10 PM.

    2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
    mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

    #2
    I've already made this repair twice. It's doable in a weekend, for sure.


    -ryan s.
    08 Lincoln Navigator L - 233k
    03 Mercury Marauder- 63k
    97 Ford Crown Victoria HPP "Tank of Justice III" (TOJ3) - 194k -->578.9 miles on ONE tank of gas<--
    94 BMW 325i Convertible - 135k
    73 VW Super Beetle "Bunky" <----- Wifey's
    12 Mini Cooper S - 90k <---- Wifey's
    Originally posted by pantera77
    Well my buddy tells him he knows exactly who loves buying shitboxes.

    Comment


      #3
      Instead of filling up the shout box with shouts related to this issue, I'll document stuff here. When I do mine, I want to do the PI cam and PI intake manifold swap as well. If ever that is going to be done, this would be the ideal time. Using used PI cams is a given for me. With respect to mixing and matching chains and gears, if I don't start with new chains and gears, then I'll make a point of getting all the chains and gears from the donor car that I get the PI cams from. Not having to mess around with removing cam gears would be a bonus for me. Naturally, I would want as low-mileage as I can get, but as long as I get significantly less then my current mileage, that should be fine considering that I don't drive a lot and that other issues would probably kill my car before further timing work would need to be done.

      The big concern for me at this point with respect to used chains and gears would be "transplanting" everything just as it was, so I would extensively mark the chains and gears to ensure everything ends up the same as it was on the donor car. One thing I found on low-mileage chains from a 2000 MGM was that they didn't have identifying links like I presumed they would. (The poor quality was noted in a CVN thread: http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/u...17#Post3518217 ). I put them in separate marked boxes, but now I'd have to try analyzing the wear pattern to determine what the rotational direction was. I wouldn't want to bother taking the chance of running a used chain backwards. At least if I get a complete used set and mark everything effectively, I would know that I'd essentially be picking up from where the donor car left off. I'm currently waiting for a cheap paint marker from China.

      I'll be doing lots of research and doing more practice on junked cars before I actually do mine. I'll post any interesting tidbits here as I go along.

      2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
      mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

      Comment


        #4
        The cams rotate in opposite directions on these? Why on earth would they do that? It would involve an extra gear in the mix to reverse the direction.
        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

        Originally posted by phayzer5
        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
          The cams rotate in opposite directions on these? Why on earth would they do that? It would involve an extra gear in the mix to reverse the direction.
          Where did you get that? If it was my point about which direction the chain rotates, for me it would be a matter of the side that wasn't being pulled by the teeth now being pulled by the teeth if the chain gets flipped over. Maybe it wouldn't be a big deal after some wear-in, but I'd prefer to keep things as close to what they were as possible if resorting to used stuff.

          There are some pics of the setup in the following link about an easy way to do the timing:

          http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00290.html

          2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
          mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

          Comment


            #6
            you said you'd have to determine direction of rotation. I thought you meant that would tell you which side they went on. Seems bafflingly stupid to have the cams run the opposite way to me, which is why I was confused.

            Regardless, any time I hear stories of people messing with these engines I just think "nope".
            Last edited by gadget73; 01-22-2017, 04:36 PM.
            86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
            5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

            91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

            1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

            Originally posted by phayzer5
            I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

            Comment


              #7
              I've done this repair twice. It was intimidating as hell the first time (I'd never opened up a modular before). This is what I found at 100k on my 2002:



              The second time was a cakewalk.


              Be careful and add extra RTV in the necessary areas.
              Last edited by a_d_a_m; 01-22-2017, 08:55 PM.
              '91 LTD Country Squire LX | '82 Cougar GS wagon |'03 Marauder | ' 18 Flex Limited EB
              formerly: '02 MGM, '04 MGM, '04 MGM v2.0, '04 MM, '07 P71 w/5-speed, '03 SAP P71, '04 CVLX (now in pantera77's stable), '10 P7B

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                ... Regardless, any time I hear stories of people messing with these engines I just think "nope".
                That sounds like the kind of rigidity that comes with old age.

                Originally posted by a_d_a_m View Post
                I've done this repair twice. It was intimidating as hell the first time (I'd never opened up a modular before). ... The second time was a cakewalk. ...
                That's why I practice important stuff at U-pull yards. One thing I learned so far is not to forget to take out the single timing cover bolt under the water pump.

                Originally posted by a_d_a_m View Post
                ... Be careful and add extra RTV in the necessary areas.
                Dealing with the curious assortment of bolts within Ford's reportedly recommended five-minute time limit for torquing the cover bolts after applying the RTV is going to be interesting. I'll definitely be using one of those cardboard bolt-holding templates to ensure the bolts are in their proper positions.

                Originally posted by a_d_a_m View Post
                ... This is what I found at 100k on my 2002: ...
                I'm over 122,000 miles now. No noises so far, but I feel like I'm driving a ticking time bomb.
                Last edited by IPreferDIY; 01-22-2017, 09:29 PM.

                2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                Comment


                  #9
                  I was saying "nope" to these when I was in my 20s. I remain unconvinced that this is a better mousetrap.
                  86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                  5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                  91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                  1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                  Originally posted by phayzer5
                  I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Ended up getting Cloyes tensioner arms (part numbers 9-5340 and 9-5341) from RockAuto at wholesaler closeout prices. The stickers on the Cloyes boxes indicate “Made in USA” and have “04/30/12” date codes, but the parts themselves are in plastic bags with stickers that indicate “Made in Taiwan”. The latter stickers have the Cloyes part numbers plus the original Ford part numbers (F3AZ6L253B and F3AZ6L253A respectively) rather than the updated Ford part numbers (1L2Z6L253BA and 1L2Z6L253AA). Here is the response I got from Cloyes:

                    If the parts were boxed in 2012 they will be the new versions. The tensioner arm brackets were not changed, I believe it was a change to the nylon contact material, so the brackets continued to have the old Ford part numbers casted into them as it was part of the tooling. I cannot explain the country of origin on the boxes being wrong, but the inner pack will be correct, those were a Taiwan sourced part.
                    I guess I’ll have to take it on faith that someone didn't put really old arms in relatively recent boxes.

                    I might as well note my recent experience when taking apart a 2001 MGM at a U-pull yard. The driver's side arm had obvious wear along most of its length, but the tip still had about half the material on it. On the passenger side, the arm was worn to the point where the chain was starting to eat into the tensioner. I recently saw someone suggest maybe taking out the camshaft sensor and sticking one of those camera probes in to check, but just because the driver's side arm is still okay doesn't necessarily mean the passenger side arm is too.

                    2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                    mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by IPreferDIY View Post
                      ... One thing I found on low-mileage chains from a 2000 MGM was that they didn't have identifying links like I presumed they would. (The poor quality was noted in a CVN thread: http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/u...17#Post3518217 ). I put them in separate marked boxes, but now I'd have to try analyzing the wear pattern to determine what the rotational direction was. I wouldn't want to bother taking the chance of running a used chain backwards. At least if I get a complete used set and mark everything effectively, I would know that I'd essentially be picking up from where the donor car left off. ...
                      I finally got around to storing those chains away. They are sitting in some 10W40 that I had left over from one of my prior shitboxes many years ago.

                      The roughness on the gear side of the chains is as disappointing as the roughness on the back side. Whatever they use to cut the individual plates leaves the edges very rough, and I guess the only finishing they give them after that is from tumbling them around in some abrasive to dull the corners.

                      There is no obvious direction of travel that I can see, since the gear teeth leave wear marks on both sides. I wouldn't think changing the direction of travel would matter, but in any event, I would prefer to use the chains from whatever car I get the PI cams from (along with the gears) and keep everything exactly the same. Apparently I can use the cams from any 4.6L PI engine, so I don't have to limit my search to panthers.

                      BTW, for people who have difficulty with the problematic bolt on the power steering pump (where the line passes over it), I find it's best to crack that one loose first and unscrew it as far as possible before cracking the others loose. On the ones I've taken out so far, I could unscrew them with my fingers very easily after they were cracked loose. With the other bolts still tight, there's nothing to rub against the loose one.
                      Last edited by IPreferDIY; 07-22-2017, 09:57 PM.

                      2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                      mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                      Comment


                        #12
                        any reason for not using new chains that are hopefully in better condition vs used ones that have obvious finish problems?

                        I'd expect the pieces to be stamped, tumble polished, and then probably heat treated for hardness. How much they tumble them will determine final finish. Likely its just long enough to be "good enough".
                        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                        Originally posted by phayzer5
                        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                          any reason for not using new chains that are hopefully in better condition vs used ones that have obvious finish problems? ...
                          Money is always a big issue with me (longstanding eye alignment issues, long story), though there are other considerations too:
                          1. OEM chains are reputed to be great and should easily be good for 300,000+ miles, though new ones would be too expensive.
                          2. Aftermarket chains are reputed to be garbage.
                          3. Simply transplanting relatively low-mileage PI camshafts, gears, and chains would be so convenient and cheap. (Incidently, I read something on CVN recently about someone never seeing the gears wear out.)
                          4. I only drive somewhere in the range of 6,000 miles per year. In theory, I could just re-use my chains with <125,000 miles on them, but keeping used chains and gears together seems like a good idea.
                          5. My car is not what I would call a long-term investment in light of the rust and lack of resale value. Small amounts of money here and there are fine, but I doubt that large amounts would end up being a wise investment.

                          Unfortunately, my local stealership does not stock timing stuff, so I haven't been able to see if the new OEM ones are as bad as what I've been seeing, including on the outer side of a chain on a Mustang engine. If they perform well despite looking that bad, then I don't see the harm of going with used ones, though hopefully the used ones I end up getting will look better. The only reason I kept the ones that are currently soaking in oil is that it wasn't worth taking them back within 30 days to get a credit for the $10 I paid for them. I might never use them, but at least I have something for "show and tell".

                          Originally posted by IPreferDIY View Post
                          ... I'm over 122,000 miles now. No noises so far, but I feel like I'm driving a ticking time bomb.
                          FWIW, I decided to open up the last oil filter I changed, and I didn't see any particulate matter. I know some people send oil samples for analysis, but checking the filter doesn't cost anything.
                          Last edited by IPreferDIY; 07-23-2017, 07:23 PM.

                          2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                          mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I just missed the edit deadline so I'll note here that I've been using a magnifying glass to look at the surfaces. My vision is crap, so I don't know what a normal person would see, but I have to wonder whether people have not looked at them closely enough to see how bad they are. I'll try to get around to looking at some aftermarket ones at a parts store.

                            2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                            mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by IPreferDIY View Post
                              ... BTW, for people who have difficulty with the problematic bolt on the power steering pump (where the line passes over it), I find it's best to crack that one loose first and unscrew it as far as possible before cracking the others loose. ...
                              Here's another tidbit I forgot: The three power steering pump bolts that you can take out are a goodly length for a harmonic balancer puller. The three bolts that I bought at Home Despot for my puller got bent from using them to hold a long piece of 1/2" plywood when loosening harmonic balancer bolts. The power steering pump bolts are free at my U-pulls.

                              2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP, a hand-me-down in 2008 with 128,000 km; 175,000 km as of July 2014
                              mods: air filter box 'tuba', headlight relay harness, J-mod (around 186,350 km), 70mm throttle body, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, aluminum driveshaft, ARA3 PCM

                              Comment

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