Need gear info for 5spd 351 build ;)

[marquis_82_withneons]

I'm afraid the car won't be where I want it unless I get a 5spd In It. I guess I'll have to just save my pennies and shoot for one I suppose

[pantera77]

You can run a t5, just don't be surprised when something eventually breaks.
That's the love/hate of project cars, always finding the weak part, improving on it, and moving on the the next.

Make sure you have poly bushings in the rear control arms, these cars axle hop like no other with worn stock bushings and a 5sp.

[knucklehead0202]

I miss driving a stick sometimes but not so much in these big cars. Would be kinda neat but negates the whole "luxury" feel really. Only way i'd go stick is with a coyote swap, and even then I don't want a 6-speed so it'd be back to a TKO probably. Too much money and trouble for lackluster results. NA stroker motor and a built AOD for me. Your experience may vary...

[His Royal Ghostliness]

There's always the option of manual valve body in a nicely built automatic trans. You can shift your own gears without a clutch pedal and all the mods it requires. Unfortunately with the AOD most builders tend to do away with the factory-style converter lockup when lots of power is to be put to the ground, since by design the 3-4 input shaft is small and can handle only so much load even if it's made of 300M. An auto trans without a locking converter is annoying on long distance drives, but for usage that doesn't involve spending hours upon hours at interstate speed even a non-lockup should be alright, just as long as it doesn't have one of them silly-loose converters.

[DerekTheGreat]

I miss driving a stick sometimes but not so much in these big cars. Would be kinda neat but negates the whole "luxury" feel really...

This. I'm kinda anti stickshift in vehicles that didn't come that way from the factory. Might make an exception with an Impala SS.

There's always the option of manual valve body in a nicely built automatic trans. You can shift your own gears without a clutch pedal and all the mods it requires...

To each his own but to me, that's not really shifting your own gears. I like the skill behind combining clutch & gas pedal actuation with arm actuation to get a shift just right & smooth. Had a friend tell me he bought his challenger with an auto because "It is faster" but to me that's a cop out statement. I'm an enthusiast, don't care for what's faster, just what feels right.

+1 for lock-up convertors. Can only imagine how much heat is generated by the extra slippage, gotta be substantial.

[knucklehead0202]

Haha yeah using the "auto is faster" excuse is just telling everyone you can't drive a man transmission worth shit. Don't get me wrong, i'm spoiled and enjoy my auto, but would never fool myself into thinking it's the best way. Autos have come a long way, but if you truly want to be one with your vehicle, stick is the only way to fly.

[DerekTheGreat]

Haha yeah using the "auto is faster" excuse is just telling everyone you can't drive a man transmission worth shit...

Pretty much what I told him haha.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Haha yeah using the "auto is faster" excuse is just telling everyone you can't drive a man transmission worth shit.

Not true, generally speaking the larger the manual trans the slower it shifts, it has to do with the sheer rotational mass of the geartrain. Heavier vehicles do require larger transmissions... so yeah, once you get out of the passenger car world it really doesn't matter how good of a shifter you are, the auto will be faster.

Pretty much what I told him haha.

Oh come on man, then learn how to shift that 465 of yours right so you can at least keep up with a 4L80E Fact of the matter is that in the area over 5000lbs but below Road Ranger level you will never outshift an Allison, with any stick. So yeah, autos are faster shifters than sticks

Loose converters generate a lot of heat. Especially lockup converters that are running in non-lockup mode (like many 4-speeds do in 2nd gear) under heavy load. If you have a sensor in the converter discharge line you can watch it heat up in real time - going from 160 to 240 in a matter of only about a minute can be a bit intimidating.

[gadget73]

Thats really not true. Once you get to a certain power level, the automatics get down the track faster. They aren't horrible like they used to be. Its not the days of the Powerslide and the C4 slushboxes.

That said, I don't drive 1/4 mile at a time or do much of any racing so I don't personally care about that. I just think a floor shifter in my Lincoln would look really dumb. I'd consider it on the Mark VII, but that has a factory console and floor shift. Making it a manual wouldn't look out of place at all.

[DerekTheGreat]

Oh come on man, then learn how to shift that 465 of yours right so you can at least keep up with a 4L80E Fact of the matter is that in the area over 5000lbs but below Road Ranger level you will never outshift an Allison, with any stick. So yeah, autos are faster shifters than sticks

Loose converters generate a lot of heat. Especially lockup converters that are running in non-lockup mode (like many 4-speeds do in 2nd gear) under heavy load. If you have a sensor in the converter discharge line you can watch it heat up in real time - going from 160 to 240 in a matter of only about a minute can be a bit intimidating.

I never disputed the auto is faster claim
Like gadget said I'm not going down the track ever and don't race much at all. I like the simplicity of a gear box, there's just less to 'em than an auto and unless abused/neglected they typically don't fail when compared to the auto offered in place of it. It's also it's own theft deterrent in a way too.

465 is gone, in with M5ODRII or something That was definitely a dump-truck transmission and I shifted that thing nice and slow like it ought to be. Perfect trans for heavy duty stuff, I learned to appreciate that. While the 454 was freakin' cool, we just didn't work that truck hard enough to justify keeping it around although we're going to keep tabs on it. Certainly won't see another truck like that for awhile and when we do, we'll probably buy it but with one condition, NV4500 equipped

...I just think a floor shifter in my Lincoln would look really dumb. I'd consider it on the Mark VII, but that has a factory console and floor shift. Making it a manual wouldn't look out of place at all.

Not at all, the fox platform was available with enthusiast shift transmissions and it would look good. If I had a Mark VII I would consider it too. Should've been an option with LSC's if you ask me, especially since they offered the damn thing to compete with BMW's and Mercedes offerings of the period.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

I never disputed the auto is faster claim
Like gadget said I'm not going down the track ever and don't race much at all. I like the simplicity of a gear box, there's just less to 'em than an auto and unless abused/neglected they typically don't fail when compared to the auto offered in place of it. It's also it's own theft deterrent in a way too.

Well if you agree that auto is faster then why did you also agree with Knucklehead that said claim is just an attempt to cover up one's own inability to shift the manual transmission fast? As for durability, oddly enough there are a number of vehicles where the slushbox is actually more reliable than the stick, courtesy of relatively-modern 5-speeds being nowhere near as simple as the older 4-speed stuff used to be. Naturally the 6-speeds are even worse. And yeah, certainly somewhat of a theft deterrent, but not quite a good one yet - give it 10 more years, and yeah no one will be touching our manual-shift stuff.

465 is gone, in with M5ODRII or something That was definitely a dump-truck transmission and I shifted that thing nice and slow like it ought to be. Perfect trans for heavy duty stuff, I learned to appreciate that. While the 454 was freakin' cool, we just didn't work that truck hard enough to justify keeping it around although we're going to keep tabs on it. Certainly won't see another truck like that for awhile and when we do, we'll probably buy it but with one condition, NV4500 equipped

What did you get, an F150 or a Ranger? Dumb thing about the M5 is that it is its own transmission as far as dimensions go, nothing else out there is like it. Say you had a ZF and it went poof on you, all you gotta do is grab any HD 4-speed and drop it in, even the t-case ends up in the same location as before so no need to mess with driveshafts. Not so much the case with the M5 tho, anything else will have the t-case further forward so driveshafts will need reworking ($$$).

Not at all, the fox platform was available with enthusiast shift transmissions and it would look good. If I had a Mark VII I would consider it too. Should've been an option with LSC's if you ask me, especially since they offered the damn thing to compete with BMW's and Mercedes offerings of the period.

5-speed LSC is cool, worked on one, gave it hydraulic clutch to replace the messed up cable she initially had. What a giant annoying mess that job was, if you don't own a welder and metalworking tools don't even think of attempting it. Sure came out good tho, and quite fun to drive!

[knucklehead0202]

Well if you agree that auto is faster then why did you also agree with Knucklehead that said claim is just an attempt to cover up one's own inability to shift the manual transmission fast? As for durability, oddly enough there are a number of vehicles where the slushbox is actually more reliable than the stick, courtesy of relatively-modern 5-speeds being nowhere near as simple as the older 4-speed stuff used to be. Naturally the 6-speeds are even worse. And yeah, certainly somewhat of a theft deterrent, but not quite a good one yet - give it 10 more years, and yeah no one will be touching our manual-shift stuff.


What did you get, an F150 or a Ranger? Dumb thing about the M5 is that it is its own transmission as far as dimensions go, nothing else out there is like it. Say you had a ZF and it went poof on you, all you gotta do is grab any HD 4-speed and drop it in, even the t-case ends up in the same location as before so no need to mess with driveshafts. Not so much the case with the M5 tho, anything else will have the t-case further forward so driveshafts will need reworking ($$$).


5-speed LSC is cool, worked on one, gave it hydraulic clutch to replace the messed up cable she initially had. What a giant annoying mess that job was, if you don't own a welder and metalworking tools don't even think of attempting it. Sure came out good tho, and quite fun to drive!

Lot out of context here ghosty. I know as well as anyone that autos shift faster and these days are more efficient, they're just not as cool in a "sporty" car. If I were to buy a mustang, or a Ferrari, I would kick my own ass if I got an auto. Conversely, even if I were to do a coyote swap in my box, i'd want an auto and to keep the nerdy column shift.

In the old days, manuals were considered better because automatics were horribly inefficient. That's just not the case these days but I still enjoy driving a stick. I think it puts you in a more pure relationship with the machine. That said, I live in southern California, which is pretty much an endless red light, so driving a manual totally blows unless you can actually find some open road. That, more than anything, is why I like my big, comfy, air-conditioned, automatic old man cars.

[DerekTheGreat]

Well if you agree that auto is faster then why did you also agree with Knucklehead that said claim is just an attempt to cover up one's own inability to shift the manual transmission fast? As for durability, oddly enough there are a number of vehicles where the slushbox is actually more reliable than the stick, courtesy of relatively-modern 5-speeds being nowhere near as simple as the older 4-speed stuff used to be. Naturally the 6-speeds are even worse. And yeah, certainly somewhat of a theft deterrent, but not quite a good one yet - give it 10 more years, and yeah no one will be touching our manual-shift stuff.


What did you get, an F150 or a Ranger? Dumb thing about the M5 is that it is its own transmission as far as dimensions go, nothing else out there is like it. Say you had a ZF and it went poof on you, all you gotta do is grab any HD 4-speed and drop it in, even the t-case ends up in the same location as before so no need to mess with driveshafts. Not so much the case with the M5 tho, anything else will have the t-case further forward so driveshafts will need reworking ($$$).


5-speed LSC is cool, worked on one, gave it hydraulic clutch to replace the messed up cable she initially had. What a giant annoying mess that job was, if you don't own a welder and metalworking tools don't even think of attempting it. Sure came out good tho, and quite fun to drive!

Khead and I were agreeing that the person in question was most likely trying to cover up their inability to drive a manual period, not that they could drive it fast or not. I was agreeing that new autos do shift faster but that shifting fractionally faster isn't important to me. It's funny that I hear a lot of people say how good they are with sticks and yet when I get in their car and ride with them I find they ride the clutch and are horrible with their timing. I try not to be that guy when I'm a passenger but I couldn't take it any more with my buddy and his Honda Accord. Was shifting it early like a diesel as he thought he was getting better gas mileage (Yet always complained how bad it is in the city and especially in the winter..) so I suggested he keep the engine in it's power band rather than shift early. Took a bit of convincing as old habits die hard yet he is seeing an improvement of 2 mpg now. I also tried helping him with shifting between gears, feathers/burns the clutch badly. Kicker: The guy has been driving a stick for over 30 years! Here I thought I was going to learn something from him...

That may be but hasn't been my experience. Although, I've never lost an auto in anything I've had that is an auto. I do see these 5+ speed autos & cringe. Dad has one in his LS and it shifts like doo-doo butter, especially 2-3 shifts.

When I was dating I had a girl ask me why my truck had three pedals and what the hell the lever in the middle was and why I was moving it. At first she kept saying to me that "Her uncle says people shouldn't drive with two feet." THought she was just trying to tell me a story or make conversation but when she repeated it several times it occurred to me...

We picked up an F250.. It is a weird looking trans, almost looks like an auto from far away.. I do like them though, despite their Maaaazduh origins. Shift smoothly enough but the OD isn't as steep as you'd expect. I haven't been able to kill one yet I see so many trucks claiming to have had theirs rebuilt. Maybe they ran 'em out of fluid?

I sure would like me one of those. There's one for sale on CL but the guy killed of the Air Suspension. As troublesome as they may be, I'd still want it to work.

Lot out of context here ghosty. I know as well as anyone that autos shift faster and these days are more efficient, they're just not as cool in a "sporty" car. If I were to buy a mustang, or a Ferrari, I would kick my own ass if I got an auto. Conversely, even if I were to do a coyote swap in my box, i'd want an auto and to keep the nerdy column shift.

In the old days, manuals were considered better because automatics were horribly inefficient. That's just not the case these days but I still enjoy driving a stick. I think it puts you in a more pure relationship with the machine. That said, I live in southern California, which is pretty much an endless red light, so driving a manual totally blows unless you can actually find some open road. That, more than anything, is why I like my big, comfy, air-conditioned, automatic old man cars.

This. If it's a sports car or offered with a manual you are a wuss in my mind for getting the auto. Don't care for the excuse, don't want to hear it! Sure though, your money, your car but damn..

Only thing I like about Commiefornia is how clean your damn cars are. The traffic must blow dogs for nickels...

[P72Ford]

Somewhat regarding the original thread topic:

A truck transmission in a car is really lame. Truck transmissions are great for creeping, towing, off-roading... truck things! They are not "sporty", and they sure as hell are not meant to be shifted quickly. Short throw shifters for pick up trucks are a moot point simply because of gear spacing. I had a Hurst short throw in my '04 Ram 1500 (NV3500), and it looked killer with the matching 4WD stick, and white knobs. I quickly learned that a shorter throw is not a quicker shift when everything else has to catch up. Kachow. That being said, I like standard transmission trucks (all I've ever had), but not for the same reasons I like standard shift cars. If I had to daily drive my '97 F-250 with the ZF5, it would take some real getting used to. Its not like the 6 spd in my TDI...

Unfortunately for the OP there is no solution that is both affordable, robust, and will be useable in a car application. Truck transmissions (some of them, not really ZFs), may be readily available and cheap, but they're going to be toilsome to drive in a car. Slow to get going, and you have to be deliberate when you shift them. Not fun or practical for daily use. The T5 will work, and is fairly affordable. If you are mindful not to get too sporty, it would probably last you fine. I find that they shift nicely, as well. TKOs are expensive, and in my opinion require internal modification to shift right. Maybe Tom can offer his feelings on that. You can get T5s that are built to "handle" your application, but at that point you are in modified TKO territory, and its kind of like "whats the point?" I have an Astro "A-5" that is rated at 585 ft*lbs for my '65 Mustang. It was expensive, but I refused to modify my cherry floor pans (or alter driveline angle) for the TKO. Also noteworthy is that my Mustang is 2500 pounds, and the engine should make in the neighborhood of 450 hp. Hardly a panther.

So your options are either: get lucky and find a suitable robust unit cheaply, bite the bullet and pay full boat, use a T5 and don't drive it like a savage, or build an AOD. I am standard shift guy through and through, but the built AOD in my '87 was cool. 3600 stall NLU, and Silverfox vb made that thing a pleasure to drive. Regarding peoples comments on using a non lock up converter: it is necessary in any AOD performance application where the input shaft is stock, and the thing is going to shift hard. Heat build up was not that noticeable in my '87; I had added a B&M stacked plate cooler, and a +3 qt deep pan, as well as temp gauge. On the highway, RPM was maybe 150-200 rpm higher than it was with lock up.

Either way, auto or standard, 3.73s are a great all around gear, whatever way you end up going.

[P72Ford]

When it comes to the automatic vs manual argument, it really boils down to personal preference.

Are automatics faster? I would not say that. One thing they offer over a standard is consistency; a result of removing the human element. But if you had two identical cars, one with an automatic, and one with a standard, its still either car's race. The standard car definitely requires more driver skill and attentiveness, which is the risk. If you raced them against each other 500 times, I would expect the automatic to win more than the standard because of consistency, and eliminating human error. But that's not to say that when the standard driver doesn't fuck up, he still can't win.

I have drag raced autos and standards, and I'll take the standard any day. Sometimes you miss a shift and you lose... But there is no denying that effectively drag racing a standard takes skill. And it also offers the driver an interactive feeling of accomplishment, as though he really earned the victory.