'85 Grand Marquis body on '98-'02 frame questions

[BigMerc96]

I like lighter steering, but not pinky steer. When its working as designed, the later ('97-'02) steering box with VAPS gives great feel. My '96 had steering that felt like my budy's '91 except it always felt the same thanks to VAPS dialing the pressure down at speed as where the '91 steering felt extremely light on the freeway. The '97 is the first year for the newer box and it feels a lot better, much better road feel, and with the VAPS working properly the feel is consistent at all speeds. My '98 feels great with the firmer/quicker box it has thanks to being a HPP. The '98 wanders a bit, but it has crappy tires and essentially no idler arm.

The '97-'02 is the best steering configuration in any Panther in my opinion. I have driven plenty of '03+ cars and I just don't like the steering feel in them for the same reasons mentioned above. I like how direct it feels, but I don't like the way its weighted.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

The early power steering systems worked like that. It always seemed like a terribly bad idea to me. If that rotary valve goes flukey the steering just rams whatever direction it feels compelled to do so.

That's why you use the steering box to control the ram - if there is pressure in one box chamber or the other when there isn't supposed to be any, that piston is moving the output shaft for you whether you want it or not, regardless of presence or absence of auxiliary hydro-assist. But yeah, a Panther has no need for such thing - what a box Panther IMHO badly needs instead is a steering damper, too bad there's like no way to put one on without some fabricobbling and sparks-making.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

When its working as designed, the later ('97-'02) steering box with VAPS gives great feel.

I like properly operating VAPS as well, but the Ford version will not work for me, as I am hydroboosted in the brakes department and the Panthers never got that, whereas the trucks that got hydroboost didn't get the VAPS (that I know of at least). General Motors is where my VAPS will be coming from as they had it factory equipped on some hydroboosted 1-ton trucks, just gotta find a suitable donor (and wiring diagrams to conform the thing is dumber than Ford's version and doesn't look at steering shaft speed, or if it does that i can be fooled accordingly).

[gadget73]

yeah I can see where a damper would be of use. Even with my much stiffer than stock steering gear (2000 CVPI) it will tend to jerk the wheel if I hit a big pothole. Shouldn't be horrible to mount one in there, though working out where to hook it to on the drag link might be interesting.

I did once consider variable assist, but I have no idea what to do with the steering wheel speed sensor. The column is different on the cars that had it, and the one time I sort of looked at it, the area looked different enough that there wouldn't have been any direct way to bolt it in there. Probably would involve pulling the column to figure out bracketry and I wasn't that motivated. Between that and the one year only steering pump, I discarded that idea.

[Hearsesrock427]

Bonus round! Sorry if this is slightly off-topic. Re-re-read through the Frame Lengths thread. Then looked up some basic dimensions for stuff. Got very curious and nerdy.

We know Grand Marq sedan/coupe and LTD CV sedan/coupe have the same wheelbase of 114.3 inches. Frame difference is 4 inches at the front longer for Grand Marqs. Duh, boring old news. We also know all the variants of the box Grand Marquis and box Town Cars/Mark VI/Town Coupe have the 4 inch extension at the front. But did you also know that an '89 Grand Marquis Colony Park (GMCP) and an '89 Town Car are within 1.1 inch of each other in overall length and ~50 pounds in curb weight? The only major difference between GMCP and Town Car here is wheelbase lengths. GMCP has 114.3 inch wheelbase, Town Car has 117.3 inch wheelbase Despite this, the Lincolns don't hang more body off the rear frame! This would explain why the Lincolns have the same trunk dimensions of the Ford/Mercury platformmates, yet have more legroom, better reported ride quality, etc. The frame ITSELF is not longer. It's the distance between the front and rear wheels that got longer, the wheelbase. Think about it. If the Lincolns just hung more body off the rear frame, they'd have a bigger trunk volume or something versus the Grand Marquis/LTD CV coupes and sedans. They wouldn't need the longer transmission tailshaft, which is unique to box Lincoln transmissions. Remember, Ford and Mercury transmissions work with all of each other's versions! Sedan, two door, wagon. No long tailshaft business. Because they have the same fuckin' wheelbase!

Anyway back to the discussion on '89 GMCP versus '89 Town Car. The slight difference in overall length (1.1 inches) between an '89 GMCP and an '89 Town Car could just be from Lincoln specific parts like the inner bumper, face plate, bumper shocks, etc. I don't know exactly what parts were specific to the Lincolns in that area but still.

All this, plus Scott saying the shooting brake supposedly has a Town Car hearse frame under it means it's possible to put a GMCP onto a box Lincoln frame (Mark VI/Town Coupe/Town Car all used the same frame)! You would need to move the rear suspension and rear end mounting hardware up a few inches; using the Lincoln mounting points on a GMCP body means the wheels would not be in the GMCP body's wheel wells. You would not need to move the transmission crossmember and mounts backwards because you are bringing the rear end/rear suspension FORWARD. Which means you don't need the Lincoln specific long tail shaft transmission. And so on and so on.

Bonus Round 2. Would a GMCP body, with the proper rear suspension/rear end mounting moficiations, fit on a '98-'02 Town Car frame? I'm thinking maybe, with the extended whale bumper mounts for box bumpers. Assuming the drop in overall length in '98+ Town Cars over the boxes is from the switch to more integrated plastic bumpers without bumper shocks.... though the wheelbase got .4 inches longer in '98, 117.7 versus the '89 Town Car at 117.3. Hmmmm. Did Ford just move the rear suspension and rear end mounts further back? I don't know, just guessing here.

[gadget73]

Moving the suspension is very much not a trivial matter. Those mount points weld to the frame, and the wheel arch is not exactly able to be moved. The wheelbase is the wheelbase, use a frame that matches what you need.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Yeah moving suspension ain't happening! If it's got a different wheel base it's got a different frame, now the only difference may be in the lenght of the straight sections of the rails under the doors, but it is nevertheless a different frame.

[dmccaig]

Re: Shooting Brake frame. Was told it came from a (74 or 84?) Lincoln hearse. Dropping the CP body on another frame was pretty much bolt up but the hearse? frame has many more grease fittings than the original CP.

Donald

[Mr Bean]

Bonus Round 2. Would a GMCP body, with the proper rear suspension/rear end mounting moficiations, fit on a '98-'02 Town Car frame? I'm thinking maybe, with the extended whale bumper mounts for box bumpers. Assuming the drop in overall length in '98+ Town Cars over the boxes is from the switch to more integrated plastic bumpers without bumper shocks.... though the wheelbase got .4 inches longer in '98, 117.7 versus the '89 Town Car at 117.3. Hmmmm. Did Ford just move the rear suspension and rear end mounts further back? I don't know, just guessing here.

No, it won't. Town Car has longer frame. Like you said above the wheel base is longer on the Town Car.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Re: Shooting Brake frame. Was told it came from a (74 or 84?) Lincoln hearse. Dropping the CP body on another frame was pretty much bolt up but the hearse? frame has many more grease fittings than the original CP.

Donald

Don, it must have been a '84 frame, the '74 would be that monster of a car that is like 25ft long in sedan form, let alone a hearse. What you have is most definitely a box Panther frame, so 1980 model year at the earliest. I should also add that whatever it is everything on it lines up perfect with the station wagon body, and there are no mods done to it whatsoever to make it fit, it all just bolts up.

[gadget73]

i wonder if it wasn't actually a Grand Marquis hearse. They did exist, and they are essentially just a wagon with covered windows.

[dmccaig]

Makes sense.

Donald

[Hearsesrock427]

i wonder if it wasn't actually a Grand Marquis hearse. They did exist, and they are essentially just a wagon with covered windows.

We've seen several such things on CL. So that's where my money would be. Town Car hearse would use Lincoln wheelbase which wouldn't work on a Ford or Mercury as you and other more knolwedgable folks have pointed out.