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    #31
    Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Seems few people are satisfied with good enough, always gotta raise the bar and cannibalize what once set the standard- discard things like trash in the street. Always caught up in the rat race.
    This is the only part of the whole rant I find reason/sense to comment on, and my comment is as follows - if everyone settled for "good enough" we'd still be doing things the horse and buggy way.

    You are right in that sometimes good enough is indeed just that, and it makes little sense to move away from it - be it for financial reasons, or difficulties in manufacturing, or just plain lack of any actual need to do so. But more often that not there is room for improvement, and said improvement is actually beneficial in some way or another. Yes drum brakes are often good enough, but have you had the opportunity to drive the same vehicle under the same conditions after a 4-wheel disc swap with proper brakes (like OEM parts off a newer model)? It's a quite noticeable difference, whether you believe that or not is up to you. Yes non-ABS braking is good enough most of the time, but RABS is better, and full 4-wheel 4-channel ABS + traction control + vehicle stability can be pure awesomeness if done right (and nowadays most of them are). Yes regular 3-point belts are often good enough, but 5-point racing harness is usually better, and an airbag in every nuke and cranny available gives you a pretty good chance to walk out of an accident that 20-30 years ago would have killed your ass on the spot. Yes carburetors got the job done, but fuel injection made sure the job is done all the time every time pretty much regardless of the environment, and nowadays forced induction adds on to the general efficiency of the whole thing. And so on and so forth.

    It's called progress, and it's got little to do with the rat race. Yes, it can be taken into extremes, and nowadays it's done so arguably way too often, but even that really depends on the point of view. You may not need an "infotainment" system with full internet access and direct and automatic connectivity to Facebook, Twitter, and God knows what other social networking crap, I may not need it either, but someone out there does - so they get the option to get it in their vehicle, and you and I still have the option of ordering a new vehicle without one. You may not need a backup camera, but I got an 8ft wide 4ft (or more) tall wall of truck body that I can't see shit around - so you skip the extra electronic gadgets, while I'm going for them. Ultimately "good enough" is anything but universal, it's highly subjective and as long as there are still folks for whom "good enough" is really "at best barely adequate" someone will always be trying to push forward - or as you call it remake the wheel. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with comparing what you got to what someone else has done - not everyone approaches the same issue in the same manner, I'd says it's actually pretty fuckin stupid to NOT look around to see if someone somewhere out there hasn't come up with a better solution than yours.

    The real problem is not who does what technological advances and for what reason, it's when that becomes the mandatory standard and everything else has to either comply or die. Which is currently the case with emissions regulations in some parts of the world (certainly not exclusive to the US). We usually still have a choice here, mostly due to the power of the individualism of all these people who you bitch about. Yes they may all want mostly the same thing, but they all want it done in their own individual way, and that's what still keeps us free for the most part. When all these folks fold and give in and start settling for "good enough", that's when we'll all be fucked. Then you won't be able to drive your old shit anymore, because it will be forced off the road for actually not being "good enough" - ever think about that?
    The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
    The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by dmccaig View Post
      Dear Panthers,
      I wrote Plymouth and Chrysler car ads in 1964. The cars were such awful quality that one customer complained because his coupe had a sedan front door and lacked inches from closing. You might get 100K if you were very lucky.The kings of the car business were the marketing guys and Detroit had NO competition. (When Nader denounced the corvair insiders debated whether Ford or MoPar had put him up to it. Meanwhile the engineers were having impromtu drag races on Woodward avenue on Saturday night. The car industry was shocked by 2 cars: the beetle and the GTO. Responding to those challenges has made a much, much better American car (though it is over-electronic and ugly.)

      Donald
      100k miles only? Then that would apply to anything else built in the time period, I'm convinced of it. My '69 Plymouth is still around. Sports the original trans and would be the original engine if guy hadn't let mice fester in it. Considering it's 40+ years old I'd say it's done well. My doors don't sag, interior is only as roached as many cars 1/2 it's age, trans shifts perfect. People get one bad example or a handful out of a hundred thousand and bash the whole product and that's what sticks. Cannibalize their own product and curse it like it was Judas with no concern on the impact over the long term. My experience has been positive. All of the old American so called "garbage" has been anything but to me, except what were deemed as economy cars or the cheapies back in their day. Why anyone would expect an A+ paint job out of a Fairmont is beyond me. In the late 70's Ford was among the first to implement a true basecoat clearcoat finish on their cars. GM experimented with EFI way back in the early/mid 70's on Cadillacs. While people laugh at this they don't even give credit where it's due- that these early systems paved the way for what followed. My experience shows they were as dedicated to quality as they could be. As if there was never a day you said "fuck it?" You're human, it happens. If that isn't to be expected I'd say society has created unjust expectations for the herd. I'd certainly expect someone to give me leniency in that area as I would for someone else. I do not demand or expect perfection, just dedication. Hate the rat race bullshit message of do better than the next man every day and every hour of each day. There is nothing wrong with the middle, and every great man will one day become a mediocre man due to what ever reason that ails him, like age, injury or defect.

      Bodies disintegrating back then eh? No more than they do now I'm sure. It's the salt and moisture - direct impact. Why cars from salt states have and continue to get bad raps. If you build the bastard out of a metal that corrodes when exposed to oxygen & water it's to be expected, unfortunately.

      A big problem to me is if the majority is convinced of something's necessity and adopts that thing, the minority who doesn't is then sneered at in whatever way, subtle or not.
      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        100k miles only? Then that would apply to anything else built in the time period, I'm convinced of it.
        While that may have been, why do you think it is not so anymore? Maybe because someone said "fuck the good enough, cause this shit ain't really good enough at all and we can do better"? Just a though...

        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        People get one bad example or a handful out of a hundred thousand and bash the whole product and that's what sticks. Cannibalize their own product and curse it like it was Judas with no concern on the impact over the long term.
        What impact are you even talking about? The one where society likes the new stuff so much it starts demanding it en masse? Well shit, that just means job well done for whoever came up with said new stuff! Oh and for the record if you cannibalize something that means you're actually making further use of it after it's completed its intended service, that's not a bad thing IMHO, and it's certainly better than just outright discarding it.

        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        In the late 70's Ford was among the first to implement a true basecoat clearcoat finish on their cars. GM experimented with EFI way back in the early/mid 70's on Cadillacs. While people laugh at this they don't even give credit where it's due- that these early systems paved the way for what followed.
        Hey, what happened to just being happy with "good enough"? Cause what you're giving as examples there are examples of trying to 1-up the competition, ain't they? You know, the whole rat race thing you've been bashing? Kinda went against your own self there a bit, didn't you?

        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        Hate the rat race bullshit message of do better than the next man every day and every hour of each day. There is nothing wrong with the middle, and every great man will one day become a mediocre man due to what ever reason that ails him, like age, injury or defect.
        This coming from someone with "The Great" in their name of choice - oh the irony! In any case, there is EVERYTHING wrong with the middle!!! The middle is what brings complacency, and complacency brings stagnation, and eventually regression. You bitch about people trying to do better than each other, yet have you noticed that such behavior has for the most part stopped nowadays? Kids no longer try to be #1 at school cause they know they'll get a participation award anyways. Grownups don't wanna work extra hard cause they either figure getting shit done the same half-assed way everyone else gets it done is good enough cause in the end shit does get done, or they just don't give a fuck at all. And so on and so forth. Is all of this actually good for anyone? Is it what you truly wish for?

        And besides, so what if one day even the greatest of men will become mediocre, at least they had their chance to shine and seized it and left their mark - without that we'd all still be terrified of the dark and dying off en masse every time some force of nature or another made some animal species or another change its migration patterns. So, pardon my manners (or really lack thereof), but to hell with your "middle" - attitude like that is why we haven't colonized the Moon yet and we're not halfway to mining the shit outta Mars instead of our own planet. Tho I suppose I shouldn't complain much, seeing as how other people's general laziness and middle-happiness is what makes those of us who strive to do better more or less just for the sake of doing better come out as a cut above the rest

        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        Bodies disintegrating back then eh? No more than they do now I'm sure. It's the salt and moisture - direct impact. Why cars from salt states have and continue to get bad raps. If you build the bastard out of a metal that corrodes when exposed to oxygen & water it's to be expected, unfortunately.
        You're sure, really now? And based on what exactly? Hey, better question, have you heard of this thing called galvanization? It's a wonderful thing really, you should totally try it some day! Oh wait, you already are using it, your whole Towncar is covered in it! Not so much the case with the old stuff. Just sayin'...

        Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
        A big problem to me is if the majority is convinced of something's necessity and adopts that thing, the minority who doesn't is then sneered at in whatever way, subtle or not.
        Long while ago you gave me a negative rep with the comment "this will always occur within humanity" (yes I actually did copy-paste that). Funny how this is also the explanation of what you said right there - it's human nature (well for most humans anyways). As in, it will always happen for one reason or another, and there ain't shit you can do about it. So way I see it, you got two options: #1 is to give in and join the Borg collective, and #2 is to grow a pair and wave them a middle finger with the clear message that resistance isn't actually futile. You seem to be pretty firmly set on going for #2 - so then wtf is the point in bitching about it in the first place? I mean it does seem like an awful waste of efforts...
        The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
        The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

        Comment


          #34
          I'm not going to get much into the rest, but quality control on mid 70s early 80s cars was spotty at best. Also, cars on the 60s and 70s rusted even in non-salt areas. Today's cars have 10 times the rust protection of old.

          I don't care what anyone says, today's cars while much more complicated are built to a higher standard and much more reliable. Many of them have no soul, but that's a different conversation.
          2020 Volvo XC90 T6 Momentum (Ice White / Blonde)
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          Past Panthers
          1989 Grand Marquis LS (Cabernet/Grey), 1989 Lincoln Town Car SS (White/Blue), 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate (White/Black)

          Originally posted by Lincolnmania
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            #35
            Chrysler had an electronic fuel injection system in the late 1950s. It didn't work well because of electronic limitations at the time, but they did give it a go.

            http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/electrojector.html

            The technology has come a long way since then. Reliability and crash survivability is greatly improved. The fact that we can drive cars from the 80s that still work shows how effective it actually was. 10 years ago, how many cars from the 70s were you seeing on the road still? It was a running joke for years that certain cars came pre-installed with rust from the factory. That started to change in the 80s and has continued. The soulless blob aspect also seemed to start then and has accelerated but they're reliable soulless blobs at least.
            86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
            5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

            91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

            1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

            Originally posted by phayzer5
            I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              While that may have been, why do you think it is not so anymore? Maybe because someone said "fuck the good enough, cause this shit ain't really good enough at all and we can do better"? Just a though...
              Cars also cost more now than they did then. Those old turds can still be put on the road and with better quality oil more mileage has been had. The trans in my Plymouth for example, still going strong. But, this is why I like the late 80's up to the mid 90's. The classic American car was essentially at the end but the engineering stepped up quite a bit, with some of the old dinosaurs still there to the bitter end, like a '96 F series truck. Overdrive was back, efficiency was up and the cars rode much better than they did in the past with less noise and such. It wasn't necessary but unfortunately for me I have grown accustomed to it. Could I live with a carb? You bet, and like you said, one day the support for my stuff will eventually dry up and yes I have thought about it. One of the very indirect reasons I don't have kids or don't want them. Wouldn't condemn anyone else to a world I'm not in favor of. I think carbs will be supported long after people stop making repo parts for junk like 80's Ford boxes so that's what I'd run with until those dried up or more laws were implemented to remind me of how un free I actually am. Funny though, people talk about how many miles they get out of a 300 straight six and that was something engineered in the 60's. I'm no machinist or metallurgist but I wonder if there are any differences between the early ones vs the later ones, induction systems aside. We've had two that used no oil and had close to 200k on them and were basically neglected. Old tech that people, in your words, said "fuck it, we can do better." I do not see any of the engines of today as better than those of yesterday. Better on gas & less harmful to the environment sure, but I'm not concerned with that, can't afford to be and well there are other reasons.. I'm warming up the LS but again, it sports a single cam & pushrods I pick & choose my tech.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              What impact are you even talking about? The one where society likes the new stuff so much it starts demanding it en masse? Well shit, that just means job well done for whoever came up with said new stuff! Oh and for the record if you cannibalize something that means you're actually making further use of it after it's completed its intended service, that's not a bad thing IMHO, and it's certainly better than just outright discarding it.
              Economic & social welfare impact for starters. The info is out there if you have the time to open your mind & discard some of the things that were beaten into it by your peers and popular opinion. There is far too little today which can sport "Made in America" compared to yesteryear. You are not making better use of anything by cannibalizing, recycling maybe, but there's a difference. I spent the first 25 years or so of my life preparing to be one of the Hive, I almost began chanting their songs too. Then I began to wake up I suppose.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              Hey, what happened to just being happy with "good enough"? Cause what you're giving as examples there are examples of trying to 1-up the competition, ain't they? You know, the whole rat race thing you've been bashing? Kinda went against your own self there a bit, didn't you?
              I see both sides of the argument. Donald pointed out "shitty quality" and so I cited examples as a counter to his argument. Doesn't mean I support it or other examples. Did I not also say something along the lines of "if it isn't useful I don't need it?" I'm purty sure I did. Truth be told though, I fully support a clear coat finish, although, those old turds sprayed with enamel still have paint on them. My Fury hasn't seen the inside of a garage in it's life yet the paint isn't completely dull and only one spot has faded to the red oxide primer or whatever the fuck it was back then.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              This coming from someone with "The Great" in their name of choice - oh the irony! In any case, there is EVERYTHING wrong with the middle!!! The middle is what brings complacency, and complacency brings stagnation, and eventually regression. You bitch about people trying to do better than each other, yet have you noticed that such behavior has for the most part stopped nowadays? Kids no longer try to be #1 at school cause they know they'll get a participation award anyways. Grownups don't wanna work extra hard cause they either figure getting shit done the same half-assed way everyone else gets it done is good enough cause in the end shit does get done, or they just don't give a fuck at all. And so on and so forth. Is all of this actually good for anyone? Is it what you truly wish for?
              I've told you or the forum about my name before, and in the newbie page of any new forum I join I try to get it out of the way right away. I created it at the age of 12 or so while playing Diablo I. My knight needed a name and within two minutes that was born. Then I went to join ThirdGen.org and wanted a name devoid of numbers or extra characters, something clean. After about 15 minutes I choose DTG and expected this type of reception. Tis OK, I like things to not be what they seem. I claim no greatness, the inverse actually. People do still strive to be #1, how many CEO's does each corporation have?? One. One of the mixed messages that still continue to prevail and I shake my head at it. Do we all share the same pay grade? "Hard work is Happy work." "It pays to work hard." "Hard work is rewarded." All bullshit. The only ones who benefit from hard work are the ones running the show. Of course they want you to work hard, it means more for them. I say get the job done, no need to act like a dog and impress the masters in hope of something that may never come. It's all about who you know, who you blow, who you're connected to and where you were born, just like it was in the ancient days. The chaste system is alive and well, it just goes unspoken today. Look harder, dig deeper and you'll begin to see it for what it is. Reward the kids in school all equally if you want, that's not the real world. Trying to keep the roof over your head while the ground trembles beneath your feet is.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              And besides, so what if one day even the greatest of men will become mediocre, at least they had their chance to shine and seized it and left their mark - without that we'd all still be terrified of the dark and dying off en masse every time some force of nature or another made some animal species or another change its migration patterns. So, pardon my manners (or really lack thereof), but to hell with your "middle" - attitude like that is why we haven't colonized the Moon yet and we're not halfway to mining the shit outta Mars instead of our own planet. Tho I suppose I shouldn't complain much, seeing as how other people's general laziness and middle-happiness is what makes those of us who strive to do better more or less just for the sake of doing better come out as a cut above the rest
              Left their mark? Laugh my balls off. There it is again too, the pursuit of #1 or "better than the next man." Humans are so concerned with greatness, they create their own award ceremonies, gods, celebrations and then impose further greatness by say, acting like the care takers of the universe, conquerors, no- liberators even.. That gets the Hive chanting and marching. "All lives matter." Fools.. Dinosaurs once ruled the globe and yet the only way to see the mark left by them is to dig deep. Time in infinite, and should humans be wiped away it wouldn't be long before all traces of them were gone and maybe like dinosaurs some fossils like skeletons would remain but that's about it. In all these years we've still made little progress from studying skeletal remains.... "Without that..." Just like when people say without government there would be chaos. That's just a popular message instilled by the government to help keep the invisible shackles in place. Popular message be damned, only one way to find out. "Do better." LoL.. "Better".. Some people are just never satisfied, and they just can't keep it to themselves.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              You're sure, really now? And based on what exactly? Hey, better question, have you heard of this thing called galvanization? It's a wonderful thing really, you should totally try it some day! Oh wait, you already are using it, your whole Towncar is covered in it! Not so much the case with the old stuff. Just sayin'...
              You mean the process where they sandwich steel inbetween zinc? Sure. I've only been making a living doing corrosion research for the past 10 years or so. I've touched on this already, the part where I pick & choose my technology comes to mind. Another reason why I like the mid to late 80's, leaded ecoat. Few things out perform galvanized metal protected by leaded e-coat and a proper urethane base clear system. Remember how I talked about cannibalization? Well now the corrosion industry has been suffering waning profit margins since patents on existing pretreatment technologies have expired. So what are they doing? They're trying to convince people of how bad the old stuff was so they can get them to spend more money on their "new" thin film pretreatment technologies. All bullshit. Cannibalizing old products that are actually better than the new. These newer cars aren't lasting half as long in the salt states but no matter, profit! This also touches on that "impact" of our choices for the future. One small example perhaps but they all add up over time.

              Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
              Long while ago you gave me a negative rep with the comment "this will always occur within humanity" (yes I actually did copy-paste that). Funny how this is also the explanation of what you said right there - it's human nature (well for most humans anyways). As in, it will always happen for one reason or another, and there ain't shit you can do about it. So way I see it, you got two options: #1 is to give in and join the Borg collective, and #2 is to grow a pair and wave them a middle finger with the clear message that resistance isn't actually futile. You seem to be pretty firmly set on going for #2 - so then wtf is the point in bitching about it in the first place? I mean it does seem like an awful waste of efforts...
              I never gave anyone negative rep. I certainly don't remember doing so but if I screen cap says I did, than I did. I'm not bitching, and even if I am, why are people so intent on giving that a bad rep? You mean to tell me if someone was forcing shit through your mouth you wouldn't gag? Actually, I used to resist, now I work on blending in. This is me still in bad form. It's hard for a tiger to mask it's stripes. I'm still working on it though, I realize I am a very small minority but that blue collar mentality of "don't take no shit" is still strong with this one.
              Last edited by DerekTheGreat; 07-17-2017, 07:19 AM.
              1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
              1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

              Comment


                #37
                Whether carbs will still be supported long after the factory-style '80s EFIs or not, it's all speculations at this point as we both know that logic is rarely applied to making decisions that concern a great number of people...

                Engine block metallurgy, yup, it generally changes over the course of the platform's life, and often so does the casting mold. But what makes an engine better is not the block, it's the complete package. Universally-better engines (like the 5.3 vs the 350) are kinda rare tho, usually it's pretty subjective - to some the dynamic performance is what matters, others are more concerned with durability and cost of repair. So what makes a better engine to one does not necessarily make it better to another.

                Where something is made has no bearing to how good it is, and the other way around. The lack of US-made goods annoys the hell outta me as well, but that's got nothing to do with technological advancements at all, and everything to do with corporate greed and economic stupidity. It's not the engineer's decision where his or her creation will be manufactured, can't blame the creator of an improved design for where and how it gets implemented - tho doing so is certainly the easy way out, "hey I'd still have a job at the assembly line if that asshole over there had never invented robots in the first place".

                Hard work and all that, well I suppose that depends - for example, it's quite hard to find a good contractor who's not busy pretty much all the time, due to all the fuck-ups out there once folks learn that you do good work you're pretty much guaranteed to always have work, and if you're smart about it you can also charge more for its quality. Of course such development can be highly unlikely in some overly large corporate entities, but at the same rate there are others where the bean counters are tired of constantly playing damage control and would much rather pay the employees more if that decreases the overall level of fuck-uppery. So CEOs aside (whole another topic), hard work CAN be happy work, and it CAN pay to work hard - but it's up to the individual to make sure that is indeed so.

                Metal coatings and such, you kinda missed the point there, whatever, not worth discussing any further.

                By leaving their mark I was talking about people who provided us with something we use everyday. Starting with whoever invented the wheel way back when, all the way up to the folks responsible for modern computer-based technologies. Would all that have eventually been invented by someone other than them - yeah, probably, who knows when tho. But you can't deny the fact that these people's work has had some impact on the world we live in today. Whether said impact is good or bad, well that depends on many things, including one's personal point of view (like people bashing on fossil fuels and praising EVs and such, yet never bothering to look upstream from the outlet to see where the energy they use actually comes from). The scale of said impact is also highly subjective - if some day some fool gets to split the planet using gravity manipulation tech (be it intentionally or just out of stupidity) then I'd say that yes, the persons who developed the stuff most definitely left their mark, quite literally in fact

                "Do better." LoL.. "Better".. Some people are just never satisfied, and they just can't keep it to themselves.
                Idk why you think that striving to do better than someone else automatically means one is "never satisfied". Easy example - would you be happy if your Fury's brake lines let go and you got the car back from the shop with a bunch of splices and compression fittings as a fix? Whereas the better way is to use flared connections, and best is to run all-new lines and thus have no connections at all. I mean yea, sure, compression fittings and looping lines all over the place can get the job done - still would you rather have those, or 1-piece lines run nice and neat like what the factory gave you? Which ultimately translates to would you choose "good enough", or would you go for "better"? Yup, it's really as simple as that - you seem to wanna blow it all out of proportion, whether intentionally or otherwise, but this is what it all boils down to. And IF you demand better from others, what right would you have to be mediocre?

                In any case, I think we've clusterfucked this thread bad enough. Obviously to the OP the Malibu was a better car than say an '80s Panther, or they wouldn't have acquired it. What makes it better, well ultimately that's their call, since it is after all their car. The whole subjective thing and all that...
                The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
                The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Whether carbs will still be supported long after the factory-style '80s EFIs or not, it's all speculations at this point as we both know that logic is rarely applied to making decisions that concern a great number of people...
                  I wonder too if that had anything to do with engines not making it the distance. A carb that over fuels wipes cylinder walls and decreases engine life. This '91 Mark we've got is still going strong at 151k and hasn't used any oil. Not bad for an archaic design.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Engine block metallurgy, yup, it generally changes over the course of the platform's life, and often so does the casting mold. But what makes an engine better is not the block, it's the complete package. Universally-better engines (like the 5.3 vs the 350) are kinda rare tho, usually it's pretty subjective - to some the dynamic performance is what matters, others are more concerned with durability and cost of repair. So what makes a better engine to one does not necessarily make it better to another.
                  I was wondering more about the bearings, rings and clearances. If those changed and if those had an impact on durability. Do peeps with early 70's 300 straight sixes get the same longevity out of the peeps with the later EFI ones. There's a guy on metro Detroit CL selling a '93(?) that still runs with 358k on the clock. Wow, just wow.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Where something is made has no bearing to how good it is, and the other way around. The lack of US-made goods annoys the hell outta me as well, but that's got nothing to do with technological advancements at all, and everything to do with corporate greed and economic stupidity. It's not the engineer's decision where his or her creation will be manufactured, can't blame the creator of an improved design for where and how it gets implemented - tho doing so is certainly the easy way out, "hey I'd still have a job at the assembly line if that asshole over there had never invented robots in the first place".
                  Annoys me too and I pretty much share your opinion on the matter. Pursuit of the billfold & fatter profit margin.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Hard work and all that, well I suppose that depends - for example, it's quite hard to find a good contractor who's not busy pretty much all the time, due to all the fuck-ups out there once folks learn that you do good work you're pretty much guaranteed to always have work, and if you're smart about it you can also charge more for its quality. Of course such development can be highly unlikely in some overly large corporate entities, but at the same rate there are others where the bean counters are tired of constantly playing damage control and would much rather pay the employees more if that decreases the overall level of fuck-uppery. So CEOs aside (whole another topic), hard work CAN be happy work, and it CAN pay to work hard - but it's up to the individual to make sure that is indeed so.
                  Ah yeah, at the end the problem always goes back to the individual. It's your fault you're not happy or whatever the issue is. If it was easy or the path was easy everyone would be doing it. It's a matter of statistics. There will always be some left out but the others throw that back with societies default response, "It's up to you." Laughable. The system tries but it's just a system, there will be rejects in every system no matter what it is, even of the robotic assembly kind. With humans, the ones who failed are essentially deemed rejects and the blame thrown on them for being so.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Metal coatings and such, you kinda missed the point there, whatever, not worth discussing any further.
                  If I missed the point it's because it wasn't clear enough. I'm well aware of what's going on beneath the surface of what I drive. I've already said that the mid to late 80's through the middle 90's are what I consider to be the best period for vehicles, that it's been downhill ever since.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  By leaving their mark I was talking about people who provided us with something we use everyday. Starting with whoever invented the wheel way back when, all the way up to the folks responsible for modern computer-based technologies. Would all that have eventually been invented by someone other than them - yeah, probably, who knows when tho. But you can't deny the fact that these people's work has had some impact on the world we live in today. Whether said impact is good or bad, well that depends on many things, including one's personal point of view (like people bashing on fossil fuels and praising EVs and such, yet never bothering to look upstream from the outlet to see where the energy they use actually comes from). The scale of said impact is also highly subjective - if some day some fool gets to split the planet using gravity manipulation tech (be it intentionally or just out of stupidity) then I'd say that yes, the persons who developed the stuff most definitely left their mark, quite literally in fact
                  Oh then tell me, who invented the wheel? How about concrete? You can't miss something you never knew or had. I understand what you're trying to say though. It's not possible for me to live off the land or do anything without some entity wanting a cut so unfortunately, given my station, I must toil away and take part of things that don't interest me. Or I'll take advantage of electricity, might as well, it's there. I'm in no way advocating the horse and buggy here.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  Idk why you think that striving to do better than someone else automatically means one is "never satisfied". Easy example - would you be happy if your Fury's brake lines let go and you got the car back from the shop with a bunch of splices and compression fittings as a fix? Whereas the better way is to use flared connections, and best is to run all-new lines and thus have no connections at all. I mean yea, sure, compression fittings and looping lines all over the place can get the job done - still would you rather have those, or 1-piece lines run nice and neat like what the factory gave you? Which ultimately translates to would you choose "good enough", or would you go for "better"? Yup, it's really as simple as that - you seem to wanna blow it all out of proportion, whether intentionally or otherwise, but this is what it all boils down to. And IF you demand better from others, what right would you have to be mediocre?
                  It was not an equation. However, it is typical for people to get into a slippery slope with doing better. The brake thing depends one what you paid for. Like if I paid someone to remodel my bathroom but I didn't specify how, what, or where things should go then I've got no room to argue should I not be pleased with it. Going back to the brake lines, I would specify and pay extra to have them hand bent and flared to look factory. On our trucks? Go to auto zone & get 'r done. I did actually hand bend and flare all the lines on my Fury some 14 or 15 years ago, come to think of it.

                  Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
                  In any case, I think we've clusterfucked this thread bad enough. Obviously to the OP the Malibu was a better car than say an '80s Panther, or they wouldn't have acquired it. What makes it better, well ultimately that's their call, since it is after all their car. The whole subjective thing and all that...
                  Yeah, I gotta work on hi-jacking threads. I never intended to hi-jack any of them it just sort of happens. At the least I don't or wouldn't get upset if it happens to my threads.
                  1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                  1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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                    #39
                    Okay, the right front caliper wasn't releasing well, so had the front calipers and hoses changed out, along with the intermediate steering shaft because I couldn't get the bolt to let go, so the clunking noise is gone and don't have to worry about steering binding up anymore. Anyway, she's complaining about a grinding noise, I can't get it to do it, we drove the car for a couple weeks and never did anything for us aside from a few ABS trac lights coming on 3-4x total. It's well sorted for now except for this noise I'm concerned about, it was doing this intermittently and now it's every time the car takes off from a stop, it's a metal on metal noise only in the first few seconds from a stop. Here's the video I took (cut down to like 9 seconds sorry about any wind noise), hopefully someone can tell me what the hell this is and if it is something to be concerned about (god I hope not, thanks) https://youtu.be/7aEig6Cr6No

                    I've got her running an audio recorder most of the time so we can see if this is the noise only louder or something, she's not good at describing/explaining and it will never do it with me in the car. She says it's a grinding noise and then the TRAC/ABS warning lights come on. I'm not that worried about the loose wire or whatever, every time the thing triggers you can get it out by just turning off and restarting the car.
                    ,
                    Slicktop '91 GS HO 4.30 rear. '82 Mark VI Tudor HO, '90 F-150 XLT, '62 project Heep, '89 Arizona Waggin' and '88 donor in PA, getting combined.

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                      #40
                      sounds like a heat shield scraping on something. Or if the splash shield on the brakes is metal. Check the engine rocking and make sure it's not torquing the exhaust up into a moving part.

                      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                      rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                      Originally posted by gadget73
                      ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                      Originally posted by dmccaig
                      Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by sly View Post
                        sounds like a heat shield scraping on something. Or if the splash shield on the brakes is metal. Check the engine rocking and make sure it's not torquing the exhaust up into a moving part.
                        This! GM's dust shields are typically way too close to the rotor, any rust buildup on either makes them get in contact and start producing funny noises. That said, this bit here worries me somewhat: "She says it's a grinding noise and then the TRAC/ABS warning lights come on. I'm not that worried about the loose wire or whatever, every time the thing triggers you can get it out by just turning off and restarting the car." This is what I've seen when a wheel bearing with the integrated ABS sensor gets loose and wobbly. Check that new cheap hub assembly you installed, and the other side that didn't get touched. Check the rears as well.
                        The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
                        The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

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                          #42
                          The ABS/TRAC light problem predates the bearing replacement, so does the noise I got the video of, as it did that noise only a little more high pitched "trilling" sound when she went to pull in to the garage where I did the wheel bearing. I think I remember bending the dust shield some, thought I bent it back, but it was one of those "I had a half hour nap in the car waiting for her, if I get this done I might get 1 hour sleep before work tonight" jobs. Though I did make doubly sure to tighten everything well. Headed over there tonight, so I will have her rev it to check the motor mounts, and I might see if I can wiggle-feel the ABS plugs without taking the wheels off or anything in the garage.

                          Full list of codes found on the car:
                          1. P0463 Fuel level sender
                          2. ABS C0035 L/F Speed Sensor
                          ABS C0040 R/F Speed Sensor
                          3. P.S. U? 0900 Device Voltage High
                          P.S. U2100 Bus Line
                          4. Radio B1325 Low Voltage
                          U2100 No Can Bus Line

                          My electrical guy said there's some sort of harness that goes out that connects the R & L speed sensor, that they're known for it. Anyway, yeah the car has a few problems but he also said there's nothing wrong with it from a safety standpoint (probably unless you're on ice and the traction control goes out, but hey, you should know to take it easy on ice, right?). From the research and reading I've done on the electrical bullshit on these cars, IIRC the body control module, the ABS/trac, and the ECU are all wired in series, so one small problem like an intermittent ground fault can propagate through the whole damn system. The gas gauge goes to empty for awhile after you fill it, so what it starts working a short time later. Hopefully she gets me a recording of this noise, or we'll just have to go for some long drives and bang in public places or whatever.
                          ,
                          Slicktop '91 GS HO 4.30 rear. '82 Mark VI Tudor HO, '90 F-150 XLT, '62 project Heep, '89 Arizona Waggin' and '88 donor in PA, getting combined.

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