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    351w buildup advice

    Hello--

    I am starting to build up a 351w for my '86 TC. One of my coworkers gave me a freshly machined short block (minus the cam), so I figured, why not throw it in my town car! The PO owns a speed shop, and I took it there last year with the 5.slow on dyno day to see what it would make. I think he would be tickled to see it with a completely different motor making way more power than it did previously.

    Anywho, I am new to building up a motor, and could use some advice as to what parts will and won't work together, X would be better than Y, etc... Here is what I have gathered for parts:
    • The 351w is slightly bored over (I think .030") and has dished pistons.
    • I will be using a pair of GT40's until I can afford a nice set of heads. The headbolt holes will need to get drilled out.
    • I am eyeballing a Howards Cam and Lifter set (MC220931-10). 269/269 Adv Duration; 215/215 Duration @ .050"; .475/.475 Lift; 110LC Lobe separation; Says its a strong low and mid-range, fuel efficiency and driveability cam. Thoughts?
    • Adept Performance Products 3/8" Stud 1.7 ratio roller rocker arms. Do I need 7/16"...?
    • Oil pan from rock auto for an early 80's crown vic that came with the 351w
    • Weiand stealth intake with an Edelbrock 1406 (Is there a kit for the TV cable that uses the ball and socket that was only used in '86?)
    • Push rods will need to get measured when the heads are assembled
    • BBK 1511 Swap exhaust headers
    • What thickness head gasket should I get?
    • What springs should I get?


    I do appreciate any advice!
    Last edited by SirFoxx; 09-20-2017, 10:00 PM.

    #2
    Originally posted by SirFoxx View Post
    Hello--

    I am starting to build up a 351w for my '86 TC. One of my coworkers gave me a freshly machined short block (minus the cam), so I figured, why not throw it in my town car! The PO owns a speed shop, and I took it there last year with the 5.slow on dyno day to see what it would make. I think he would be tickled to see it with a completely different motor making way more power than it did previously.

    Anywho, I am new to building up a motor, and could use some advice as to what parts will and won't work together, X would be better than Y, etc... Here is what I have gathered for parts:
    • The 351w is slightly bored over (I think .030") and has dished pistons.
    • I will be using a pair of GT40's until I can afford a nice set of heads. The headbolt holes will need to get drilled out.
    • I am eyeballing a Howards Cam and Lifter set (MC220931-10). 269/269 Adv Duration; 215/215 Duration @ .050"; .475/.475 Lift; 110LC Lobe separation; Says its a strong low and mid-range, fuel efficiency and driveability cam. Thoughts?
    • Adept Performance Products 3/8" Stud 1.7 ratio roller rocker arms. Do I need 7/16"...?
    • Oil pan from rock auto for an early 80's crown vic that came with the 351w
    • Weiand stealth intake with an Edelbrock 1406 (Is there a kit for the TV cable that uses the ball and socket that was only used in '86?)
    • Push rods will need to get measured when the heads are assembled
    • BBK 1511 Swap exhaust headers
    • What thickness head gasket should I get?
    • What springs should I get?


    I do appreciate any advice!
    EFI with a tuned A9P computer with lightning upper and lower with explorer tb modified with panther throttle lever, that'll solve your fuel delivery and throttle valve.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by 86VickyLX View Post
      EFI with a tuned A9P computer with lightning upper and lower with explorer tb modified with panther throttle lever, that'll solve your fuel delivery and throttle valve.
      If I could find all that for under $500 I'd go that route. But considering most people want $350+ for just the computer, untuned, I will probably stick with the carb and intake since I already own it (picked both up, barely used for $275).

      Comment


        #4
        With that mild of a cam you won't need stupid spring pressures to keep valves from floating at high RPMs, so 3/8" studs should be just fine. How you gonna go about putting those studs on heads meant to run 5/16" pedestal setup, gonna have the heads milled and tapped or just run the Comp Cams conversion kit?

        Rockers, Scorpion has uber nice 1.72 roller rockers, warrantied forever, and US-made too - not sure about Adept Performance, never heard of them.

        Are you running the flat-tapped cam bulshit? Fuck that crap, even low-revv (governed at 3200 RPMs) diesels with soft valve springs have been running rollers since early '80s. I'd be looking for ways to make the 302 factory roller lifter setup work somehow, actually I have a pretty good idea how to make that happen but I won't share it for liability reasons, you come up with your own or buy the conversion lifters. Springs I can't recommend, I have a brand new set that's good for up to .600 lift that I probably won't be using, but they are for P heads and so half of their keepers won't work for your regular 40s.

        Head gaskets, since your pistons are dished (as opposed to domed) the thinner the better for compression ratio. And you do want as much compression as you can get out of it. Factory felpro should be good tho. Also do keep in mind new factory-replacement head bolts are of the torque-to-yield variety - if you don't wanna mess with them you gotta reuse your factory head bolts, or get ARPs or something.

        The Stealth is a great intake, but don't expect miracles from that Edeljunk especially if you don't fuck with it much. Now if you do fuck with it, and teach yourself how to do so, then there's a potential for both miles and smiles per gallon
        The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
        The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by His Royal Ghostliness View Post
          With that mild of a cam you won't need stupid spring pressures to keep valves from floating at high RPMs, so 3/8" studs should be just fine. How you gonna go about putting those studs on heads meant to run 5/16" pedestal setup, gonna have the heads milled and tapped or just run the Comp Cams conversion kit?

          Rockers, Scorpion has uber nice 1.72 roller rockers, warrantied forever, and US-made too - not sure about Adept Performance, never heard of them.
          I just assumed the gt40's used roller rockers. This is my first build after all! I just did a quick search on ebay, would something like this work? (think budget build).
          https://goo.gl/H7D57c

          Are you running the flat-tapped cam bulshit? Fuck that crap, even low-revv (governed at 3200 RPMs) diesels with soft valve springs have been running rollers since early '80s. I'd be looking for ways to make the 302 factory roller lifter setup work somehow, actually I have a pretty good idea how to make that happen but I won't share it for liability reasons, you come up with your own or buy the conversion lifters. Springs I can't recommend, I have a brand new set that's good for up to .600 lift that I probably won't be using, but they are for P heads and so half of their keepers won't work for your regular 40s.
          I thought the conversion kit was expensive, but read about link bar lifters. Would those work with the Howards cam that I have chosen? If so, do I need mechanical or hydraulic link bar lifters?

          Head gaskets, since your pistons are dished (as opposed to domed) the thinner the better for compression ratio. And you do want as much compression as you can get out of it. Factory felpro should be good tho. Also do keep in mind new factory-replacement head bolts are of the torque-to-yield variety - if you don't wanna mess with them you gotta reuse your factory head bolts, or get ARPs or something.

          The Stealth is a great intake, but don't expect miracles from that Edeljunk especially if you don't fuck with it much. Now if you do fuck with it, and teach yourself how to do so, then there's a potential for both miles and smiles per gallon
          The head bolts, since the gt40's need to be drilled, don't I need to get new head bolts? As for the carb, you can get re-tune(?) kits for them, and most people recommend putting the 1405 kit into the 1406 carb for better results.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by SirFoxx View Post
            I just assumed the gt40's used roller rockers. This is my first build after all! I just did a quick search on ebay, would something like this work? (think budget build).
            https://goo.gl/H7D57c
            I think we all wished the GTs used roller rockers from the factory. Nah, they run your standard stamped steel rockers, only the Cobra engines from the mid-'90s used roller rockers right off the bat.

            The rockers you linked to will work, yes, however! Do your research on these cheap roller rockers, you may find the results rather interesting. The Scorpions I mentioned are only about $100 more, and with them you know what you're getting. Same with other reputable manufacturers too, like Crane for example, and they also run about $100 more than the cheap stuff. Another thing to consider - we have here folks that run Scorps and folks that run Cranes, do we have anyone who runs the Chinese stuff? Or do you personally know anyone who does? A rocker's job is a very important one, and demanding too - cheap China-special oil pans are one thing, this is different. I would suggest that you buy some nice stud-mount rockers now that you can later transfer over to your new hi-performance heads. The kit to use such rockers on pedestal mount heads is not horribly priced either, about $120. If you don't do it that way, and instead buy the direct-fit rockers now, when you get the new heads you'll need new rockers too, again.


            Originally posted by SirFoxx View Post
            I thought the conversion kit was expensive, but read about link bar lifters. Would those work with the Howards cam that I have chosen? If so, do I need mechanical or hydraulic link bar lifters?
            For a street build, always go for hydraulic lifters, regardless of flat-tapped or roller design. Mechanicals are a thing of the past, and nowadays only used when the engine is spinning at gazillion RPMs where they don't wanna chance any float from the hydraulics.

            The link-bar stuff will work, but it is expensive, $400 and up. If you got access to a welder and know how to use it you could make the OEM 302 setup work, if not link-bar it is.

            Whether the roller lifters will work with that cam, idk, you're the one who chose it so you look it up, lol. But generally a cam is designed for either flat-tappets or rollers, so manufacturers will often have the same grind profile available in two versions, this way the end user can match the cam to whatever lifters they got.


            Originally posted by SirFoxx View Post
            The head bolts, since the gt40's need to be drilled, don't I need to get new head bolts? As for the carb, you can get re-tune(?) kits for them, and most people recommend putting the 1405 kit into the 1406 carb for better results.
            Head bolts, well drilling the heads only opens the holes up to fit the larger 1/2" bolts the 351 uses. So if you have factory 351 bolts, and they are of the non-TTY variety, you can just reuse those, no need to buy new ones. If you don't have reusable OEM bolts, then if you get the Felpro or whatever replacements they will likely be TTY bolts, meaning you only get one use of them, and when it's time for the new heads you'll be buying new bolts again. Check price on ARP hardware, you may find them quite affordable - and you don't need studs, bolts are just fine, as long as they're not TTY type.

            But since you mentioned drilling the heads - how much will that cost you? Here's something to consider - do you know for a fact the GT40s you have are good to go 100% and then some? Are you doing the valve spring install yourself, or are you having a shop handle it? Case in point, I have a pair of P heads in the shop right now (gonna check up on them tomorrow actually), they came from a low-mileage engine yet they need new guides and a valve job. Total cost of labor estimated at $450, and that's without drilling them since they're going on a 302, but if they needed drilling the price goes up. So say $100 for them to be drilled, plus the $450 I just mentioned, plus $120 for the stud-mount conversion kit to run the good roller rockers - we're already at $670, which is actually more than what a Trick-Flow aluminum head costs. So you could spend almost $700 on a set of heads you plan on replacing eventually anyways. Or you can prolong your build for a while, save up a bit more, and go for the gusto from the get-go. Of course that only applies if your GT40 heads do indeed need a lot of work, which some do and some don't - good machine shop will be able to check them out for you and tell you where you stand.

            As for the carbs, I'll be honest with you, this 1405 kit in 1406 carb thing means exactly nothing to me. I'm used to working with jet sizes, metering rods taper, power valve and springs vacuum rating, accelerator pump shot size, etc - actual numbers that one can look up in tables and see what can be changed and in what direction and what that change is expected to yield. At one point I was tweaking a Holley carb just about every day, it would always be small things, and one at a time. I can't tell you how many jet pairs and power valves I went thru till I found what I thought was the perfect setup, it was nice that one of the local chain parts stores had a performance section where they had such things in stock and in wide variety. IIRC Edelbrock carbs have similar tunability, so just get the 1406 carb as is onto the engine, get the engine running , and only then start looking into what you have and what you can change - it will probably be individual stuff too, not entire kits, as the kits only get you close enough, and considering what's involved in building an engine close enough is something you should not be settling for
            The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
            The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by SirFoxx View Post
              If I could find all that for under $500 I'd go that route. But considering most people want $350+ for just the computer, untuned, I will probably stick with the carb and intake since I already own it (picked both up, barely used for $275).
              350? Damn I sold my spare a9p computer for about 90$

              Comment


                #8
                What year block? Some newer ones have provisions for hyd rollers even though they were not used. Older blocks needing retro fit roller hyd lifters need a retro fit cam with a reduced base circle.
                Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                Comment


                  #9
                  Does the driveline have any other modifications? Gears/ transmission modifications?

                  I'd go with the Crane 1.7 pedestal mount rockers; they used to have a Ford PN on them (OEM '93 Cobra), and they were fairly affordable. Spend the time to check push rod length, and actually check rocker arm geometry to ensure you're actually making the most of the 1.7s. Everyone just slaps them on and hopes for miracles. Having checked witness marks on my own engines, I know you are leaving alot on the table with a blind install. If this doesn't make sense, there is a fantastic write up stickied on SBFTECH.

                  I used those headers on a 351 in a '90 CV, with no issues. Throw the included gaskets and hardware in the trash, and buy a set of Percy's copper gaskets, and a bag of black oxide allen head cap screws and lock washers from McMaster Carr.

                  Either OEM replacement head gaskets, or a thinner alternative. Compressed thicknesses will be listed from any manufacturer worth their salt. Calculate you static compression ratio before hand and see what effect the gasket thickness has. It can be significant. You may decide to ditch those pistons (now is the time) in favor of something with less dish to bump the compression ratio. On a side note, I did an all time bonehead move one time and put a SBC together one time, only to be really disappointed by what was on paper a really hot engine. Ended up being I only had like 8.2:1 static compression ratio when I calculated it out (dished pistons, thick gaskets, and a 64cc chamber). Ended up taking the engine out of the car and tearing it down, changing pistons, and that's when I found the extra second in my ET (with tuning).

                  I say go with more cam, and find a way to go roller. Better profiles, better drivability, better performance, and most importantly less risk of failure. Flat tappet is a risk today because of the low zinc content in most oils. Zinc additive is out there, but that would pay for the roller upgrade over the life of the engine.

                  Finally... on the Edelbrock carburetors. I have owned them, and specifically the 1406. Fine for a daily driver, but to me there is no compromise between smiles/ miles per gallon. I messed with mine incessantly; metering rods, jets, rods, springs, etc. They are very simple to work on, but I never found the compromise. I put a Holley 600 DP on my last 302, and it was close out of the box; it did not take much to make it perfect, and despite what folks told me about mechanical secondaries and a heavy car with an automatic, they can pound sand. I had a 3600 stall NLU converter, and 3.73s, though. These are critical to making it all work with a DP.

                  As far as TV pressure goes, get a Silverfox VB. They are not as sensitive to TV pressure, and with the Lokar kit you can make them work mounted on the factory Holley/ Edelbrock arm. Dan's valve bodies shift great, are easy to install, and not having the huge fear of TV issues is pretty nice.

                  I know I've made some suggestions that will breach the budget. Save your money and wait. "The bitter taste of poor performance will remain long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"... Benjamin Franklin said something along those lines when he was building his first race car .
                  **2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302: 5.0/ 6 spd/ 3.73s, 20K Cruiser
                  **2006 MGM,"Ultimate": 4.6/ 2.73/ Dark Tint, Magnaflows, 19s, 115K Daily Driver
                  **2012 Harley Davidson Wide Glide (FXDWG):103/ Cobra Speedsters/ Cosmetics, 9K Poseur HD Rider
                  **1976 Ford F-150 4WD: 360, 4 spd, 3.50s, factory A/C, 4" lift, Bilsteins, US Indy Mags, 35s Truck Duties

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I scrapped my Crane rockers. They wore out, and not where I'd expect. The trunnion (its the cross shaft) actually wore from the needle roller bearings. It seemed like the shaft was not hard enough to be used as a bearing race. Mine were used when I bought them and I haven't a clue how many miles but they started out noisy and got worse. The Scorpion rockers I robbed off my set of P heads when I discovered how worn the Crane were are absolutely silent and seem beefier. I didn't take a file to the shafts to see if they were harder though. I wasn't real inclined to take them apart or damage the things, the engine needed to go back together and I was not wanting to spend more money or wait for parts to come in when I had those sitting on a shelf not doing anything.

                    Personally I'd say get the right cam and good heads and do this once. I have swapped heads and a cam with the engine in the car and both suck ass. Its more expensive doing it multiple times too. Put it together on the stand the right way and be done with it.
                    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                    Originally posted by phayzer5
                    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am using mid lift rockers
                      Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
                        What year block? Some newer ones have provisions for hyd rollers even though they were not used. Older blocks needing retro fit roller hyd lifters need a retro fit cam with a reduced base circle.
                        Yeah, there is that also. If we can see a picture of the top of the engine block in question we'll know for sure what can and can't be done with it.


                        Originally posted by P72Ford View Post
                        I'd go with the Crane 1.7 pedestal mount rockers; they used to have a Ford PN on them (OEM '93 Cobra), and they were fairly affordable.
                        WERE very affordable, not anymore I'm afraid, seems like the supply has dwindled down. When I was looking for RRs last month I only found a single set of Cobra ones, and their price tag was noticeably higher than the race Scorpions - yeah, thanks but no thanks, a factory part number to me is not more important than the manufacturing process.

                        Originally posted by P72Ford View Post
                        and despite what folks told me about mechanical secondaries and a heavy car with an automatic, they can pound sand.
                        That has been my experience as well. Totally different application even, still the same results - thing hauled ass, got decent fuel economy, and had zero issues starting in stupid cold weather even after sitting for over a month.

                        Originally posted by P72Ford View Post
                        "The bitter taste of poor performance will remain long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"... Benjamin Franklin said something along those lines when he was building his first race car .
                        Indeed, wisdom to build by


                        Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
                        Personally I'd say get the right cam and good heads and do this once. I have swapped heads and a cam with the engine in the car and both suck ass. Its more expensive doing it multiple times too. Put it together on the stand the right way and be done with it.
                        Hey, at least you didn't have to pull the engine you just put in back out just to change freeze plugs... But yes, putting shit together on the stand and then just dropping it in and running it balls to the wall sure beats getting any major work done in-frame.
                        The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
                        The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I love all this feedback!

                          As for the cam, I took a look at it, and it is indeed a flat tappet cam. I took another look in the catalog that I have and found one that is comparable. The specs are:

                          Adv. Duration 272/272; 219/219 Dur. @ .050"; .544/.544 Lift; 110LC Lobe Seperation. Howards even has a kit that comes with link bar lifters. Part #CL222725-10. The heads I'm looking at (see below) says the springs are good for .550 lift. Will those be okay with the cam lift being so close to the max lift of the springs?

                          Heads. For the price to redo my gt40's and convert them to use decent parts, I might as well get a decent pair of aluminum heads that flow way better than the gt40's ever will. I will probably get the Flo-Tek 203505 heads. Speedway also gives part numbers for the correct roller rockers and ARP headbolts. I will probably sell the gt40's and the spare E7's I have to put towards a decent pair of heads. Oh, also my block is a '69. Definitely don't think it has revisions for roller lifters.

                          Ah yes, forgot to address the transmission. As of right now, its bone stock with 150k miles on it. I originally wanted to put new clutch packs in it, along with the wider OD band, the "A"(?) servo in it, and the tailshaft lube kit since the flavor aod that came in my TC never got it (at least I don't think it did). I don't plan on racing this car, it will probably be a daily-ish / street car, so I'm not going to be asking for a whole lot from the tranny all the time. As for the Silverfox VB, how much do those run? It kinda scares me as to how much itll be since it seems that they are all custom made, and there are no prices on the website.

                          The diff, I may pull a LS diff from a P71, or some other ford that has the LS in it. I'd like to find either a 3.27 or 3.55 for it.

                          I will probably put the edeljunk on it as a start since I already have it and work from there. As many of you said, it's not the greatest, but I already own it, might as well try it and see what happens.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The correct roller rockers are the ones you wanna use, lol. What I'm saying is there are a whole bunch of RRs out there that fit small-block Ford heads and have the proper mount setup for aftermarket heads (likely 3/8" stud). They do come in different ratios, so that alone will produce different part numbers from the same manufacturer even.
                            The ones who accomplish true greatness, are the foolish who keep pressing onward.
                            The ones who accomplish nothing, are the wise who know when to quit.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'd probably go with 3.8" stud rockers. The edelbrock heads I have had the stud conversion on them and it seems to work alright, but if you can get stud-mount heads, that's better. I actually had Adept rockers on those heads when they were on my other car(briefly) and everything worked fine. There's lots of good rockers out there so unless you're super-cheap, buck up and get a decent brand. I bought those because I was on a super-tight budget and wasn't planning to run that engine forever. Edelbrock carbs are ok if you know how to make them work(I don't) but usually when everyone else is using a certain type of something, it's for a reason.

                              Far as cams go, you'd be wise to go roller for a number of reasons, not the least of which is longevity but also consider that there's an absolute fuckton of off-the-shelf HO cams that will work. Hell you can even buy a used one. Unless the engine ever ran dry, it takes a very long time to wear out a roller cam. I have a couple laying around you might be interested in. The link-bar lifters are a little pricey but again, well worth it.

                              Have done a little research on those flo-tek heads and they seem alright, while not quite living up to the quality of more mainstream stuff. Personally if I were going to buy a "budget" head, I'd buy some iron Windsor Jr. or Sr. heads. They can be found for extremely cheap and are a great head. Also iron, so strong if you ever decide to throw nitrous or boost at it down the road. Lurk around on corral for deals, those mustang guys are always throwing shit away. If you end up going with pedestal mount, I have some Crane or Comp cams 1.6 pedestal roller rockers laying around somewhere i'd give you a good deal on.

                              Comment

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