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kishy's 1985 Ranger

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    #76
    I looked it up and rather annoyingly, the bonded brake shoes that failed were Wagners...so I can't really trash talk them too much. Riveted Wagner is what I put on to replace them.

    I can only assume the combination of being bonded, and perhaps old stock, resulted in the adhesive failing and the linings falling off. When replacing them yesterday, the ones on the other side popped off with almost no effort required as well. My idiot self had assumed the shoes would not be able to travel far enough, even minus their linings, to let the piston pop out of the WC. Lesson learned, there is more than enough room for that to happen.

    Master is next (this coming weekend). I think there's an internal seal failure preventing the front brakes from pressurizing. With the rear fluid loss and safety valve activation, I should have had full front brakes, but I had almost nothing at all. The fronts bleed normally, but can't stop the truck on their own and that's a problem. The odd thing is that the rear shoes had tons of material left so if the truck was 100, or even 75% stopping on the rears I would have expected more wear.
    Last edited by kishy; 11-08-2017, 11:33 AM.

    Current driver: Ranger
    Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
    | 88 TC | 91 GM
    Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
    | Junkyards

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      #77
      Nice! It reminds me of my '89 BII, I miss that thing. Someone insisted on giving me $2k for it, so I let it go...
      Pete ::::>>> resident LED addict and CFI defector LED bulb replacements
      'LTD HPP' 85 Vic (my rusty baby) '06 Honda Reflex 250cc 'Baileys' 91 Vic (faded cream puff) ClifFord 'ODB' 88 P72 (SOLD) '77 LTDII (RIP)
      sigpic
      85HPP's most noteworthy mods: CFI to SEFI conversion w/HO upperstuff headers & flowmasters P71 airbox Towncar seats LED dash light-show center console w/5 gauge package LED 3rd brake light 3G alternator mini starter washer/coolant bottle upgrade Towncar power trunk pull underhood fuse/relay box 16" HPP wheels - police swaybars w/poly rubbers - budget Alpine driven 10 speaker stereo

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        #78
        Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
        I could write a book on how the process goes wrong from concept to finished product.
        Give me the Cliff Notes version, please

        But also, say a problem is found in the field with a given design, how do they find the problem, is it via customer complaint or do they continue to test the products and designs after they're released?
        1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
        1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

        Comment


          #79
          Old bonded adhesive becomes un-bonded adhesive. Thats the usual fail method on 90s+ Panther parking brakes. The friction material simply falls off the shoe.
          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

          Originally posted by phayzer5
          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
            I could write a book on how the process goes wrong from concept to finished product.
            You should do that.

            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
            rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
            Originally posted by gadget73
            ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
            Originally posted by dmccaig
            Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

            Comment


              #81
              I spray the under side of my vehicles with Chain saw bar lube lasts for years works better than under coating.
              Scars are tatoos of the fearless

              Comment


                #82
                Coatings are shit, trap moisture. Oil/lubes are certainly better, just be mindful of the chemistry and what not around rubbers & plastics.
                1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
                  Give me the Cliff Notes version, please

                  But also, say a problem is found in the field with a given design, how do they find the problem, is it via customer complaint or do they continue to test the products and designs after they're released?
                  Heh. I knew a guy who was a powertrain failure analyst for Chrysler back in the day. Basically he'd take a engine/trans design prototype and run it on a dyno till it broke then figure out how it broke and recommend changes. I remember clearly that he found early 3.5l DOHC V6s would pop head gaskets, which was a problem that continued on production engines. Why? When he reported the issue, he was told that it was too far along in the engineering/design phase to fix it. At some point they did, but it wasn't until several years into production. I imagine that is a fairly common scenario. Something doesn't get discovered/realized early on and by time it is the design is too far along or there isn't enough time to change/fix it unless its something simple.
                  -Steve

                  2006 Audi A6 S-Line FWD ~132k miles, stock.
                  1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP ~102k miles, slowly acquiring modifications.
                  1997 Lincoln Town Car Cartier ~145k miles, Ported Plenum, Gutted Airbox, Mechanical Fan Delete, Contour E-fan Retrofit, Dual exhaust, Cats ran away, KYB Gas-A-Justs, P71 front sway bar, air ride reinstalled, Blinker Mod, Projector headlight retrofit, Caddy 4-note horn retrofit, Wood rim steering wheel, rustbelt diet plan..
                  1996 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 117,485mi. R.I.P. 7/14/12

                  Comment


                    #84
                    I had a work order that had to do with a thermostat hsg. It was on one of fords 4 bangers. It was a very complicated hsg design with a lot of stack up / tolerance issues. Had to read through about 2000 reports written by dealership mechanic sorry service technicians. Some really didnt explain the issue some did. Some were because of sand that wasnt flushed out well after the casting of the block. Some the malfunction of the thermostat. Most because of the hsg itself. So I ADJUSTED some of the pieces making up the thermostat assembly to correct. Funny part was I told the engineer how it should have been done a much cheaper and wouldt have any issues. He said were were you when this was designed? I told him i was sitting right next to the guy designing the oil pan for the stroked 2.3. aNY WAY IT was to late to change to my better design as the engine already in production.
                    Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by BigMerc96 View Post
                      Heh. I knew a guy who was a powertrain failure analyst for Chrysler back in the day. Basically he'd take a engine/trans design prototype and run it on a dyno till it broke then figure out how it broke and recommend changes. I remember clearly that he found early 3.5l DOHC V6s would pop head gaskets, which was a problem that continued on production engines. Why? When he reported the issue, he was told that it was too far along in the engineering/design phase to fix it. At some point they did, but it wasn't until several years into production. I imagine that is a fairly common scenario. Something doesn't get discovered/realized early on and by time it is the design is too far along or there isn't enough time to change/fix it unless its something simple.
                      Very interesting! Stupid move on management's part. Guess that goes back to failure analysis and damage assessment. Like what costs more, pull the engine or deal with warranty concerns? Still, that's a shitty thing to make your customers deal with it, not good for reputation. I hate management, damn bean counting, pencil pushing morons with no concern for the consequences of their actions.
                      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
                        I had a work order that had to do with a thermostat hsg. It was on one of fords 4 bangers. It was a very complicated hsg design with a lot of stack up / tolerance issues. Had to read through about 2000 reports written by dealership mechanic sorry service technicians. Some really didnt explain the issue some did. Some were because of sand that wasnt flushed out well after the casting of the block. Some the malfunction of the thermostat. Most because of the hsg itself. So I ADJUSTED some of the pieces making up the thermostat assembly to correct. Funny part was I told the engineer how it should have been done a much cheaper and wouldt have any issues. He said were were you when this was designed? I told him i was sitting right next to the guy designing the oil pan for the stroked 2.3. aNY WAY IT was to late to change to my better design as the engine already in production.
                        So did the eventually phase your fix in or just let it go? Why don't they catch that stuff before production hits? Don't the test engines for several years before production?
                        1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                        1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                        Comment


                          #87
                          They fazed in my fix of the original design but didnt go with my better , cheaper, simpler design. Would have if the original wasn't already in production.
                          Scars are tatoos of the fearless

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Pics of the brake carnage from Tuesday:





                            Today, replaced the master cylinder out of "an abundance of caution":



                            That adjustable pushrod the people talk about:







                            The old MC had been actively leaking against the booster, so this was needed. The brakes feel pretty much the same after bleeding, but now it will lock up the fronts if I really try, so it's better all around.

                            I took it to the shop that did the safety on it 2 years ago and had the technician take me around the block in it. He said it stops perfectly and pedal feels normal. That plus knowing I can lock em up if I need to is good enough for me.

                            Current driver: Ranger
                            Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                            | 88 TC | 91 GM
                            Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                            Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                            | Junkyards

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Glad to see someone else doing a bench bleed on the master cylinder. Most shops I know, do not do it or don't know what I am talking about. They look at me like I am from Mars. The adjustable push rod exists too ! I thought I was going insane. I miss doing my own work.

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                                #90
                                Being able to lock up the tires isn't necessarily an advantage, especially if its touchy. Once the tire stops turning, the stop distance actually increases considerably vs having it at the point just before it locks up.

                                people install MC's without bench bleeding? I don't tend to do it literally on the bench, but I use the little bleeder things once its bolted up and bleed the air out.
                                86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                                5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                                91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                                1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                                Originally posted by phayzer5
                                I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                                Comment

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