PotM GrandMarq.NET - Panther Headquarters Forum Index PotM
GMN Chat Room GMN's STORE!! GMN's Gallery Please!!
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: Interesting tune up and starter situation

  1. #1

    Default Interesting tune up and starter situation

    Today I did a tune up.
    The spark plugs I bought would not go in. This happened on each one. The new were Autolite iradium and Autolite double platinium. I bought 2 sets. I tried each type in different holes but no luck. I cleaned the old plugs and put them back in. They were also Autolite 764, apperently the cheap ones. They went back in easily. Started the car, it ran fine. They are 6 years old.
    I then did an oil change.
    Started the car, ran fine.

    Then came back out 30 minutes later and when I started the car. The starter would not disengage. It kept spinning the engine even after the key was turned off and removed as well as the solenoid switch was unplugged.
    The only time the starter would stop was when I disconnected the battery.
    1990 Colony Park with a 90 GT motor and GT 40 heads.
    Any ideas?

    Thank you
    Mike

  2. #2
    I like cars and stuff
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Windsor, ON
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    What application did you buy the spark plugs for? The heads have something to do with the plug situation. There were multiple (2 that I know of) plug designs for 302s, relating to the threads and seat. I thought that was a mid 80s change though. If there was another later change (GT40 heads...) I didn't know about it.

    1990 introduced the PMGR starter with integral solenoid and relay. The starter has full battery +12V, unfused, 24/7. The fender-mounted relay sends 12V down to the second relay (solenoid) that is mounted on the starter. That is where the high-current switching happens.

    Important edit: it looks like 1990 Mustang 5.0 still used the direct drive (one wire) starter. In 1990, both starters are spec'd for Panther 5.0s, likely due to it being a partial model year change. You need to figure out what type of starter you actually have. If it's the direct-drive, the relay on the fender may have welded closed.

    If you had undone the starter wires from the starter relay on the fender, then put them back on "the traditional way", that may be why your starter is remaining energized. The big fat starter wire goes on the constant hot side, and the skinnier starter wire goes on the switched side. If the skinny wire is on the constant hot side, OR if the skinny AND fat wires are together on the switched side, you can get your current (no pun intended) problem.

    If the wiring was never touched, then it's possible the solenoid on the starter motor has seized/welded.
    Last edited by kishy; 02-11-2018 at 08:00 PM.

    83 GM 2dr | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 (Pre-Op) | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards thread/Flickr

  3. #3
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Shelby Township, MI
    Posts
    2,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kishy View Post
    ...
    If the wiring was never touched, then it's possible the solenoid on the starter motor has seized/welded.
    That's what happened on The Ice Car almost two years ago, but that starter was under warranty. I took it in and told them what it was doing, got my replacement and don't recall them even testing it.
    When my starter was doing this I also had to disconnect the battery to get it to stop. The starter would stick as described in the OP about once a week until I replaced it a couple weeks later when it started doing it more consistently.
    This was the second replacement starter on a lifetime warranty. First one (original purchase) lasted 4 years, first replacement lasted 4 months before the sticking started, and the current one is almost two years old now.
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - I'll fix it eventually
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  4. #4
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Bedford, VA
    Posts
    4,473

    Default

    Looks like the GT40 and P heads both take a Motorcraft SP413 (Autolite 764). Just means you got real heads and not junk boat anchors like came on it.

    My 90 (October 89) has the old school starter with just the one solenoid up on the fender. But as the others have said, definitely sounds like a solenoid issue. What exactly did you unplug on the solenoid?
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

    GMN Box Panther History
    Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
    Box Panther Production Numbers

  5. #5
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    35,852

    Default

    When the relays weld, its often because the starter is dying. Late style starter should put no real load on it though, so it may be simple failure. Also not impossible its the solenoid on the starter itself. They can also weld together or fail. To isolate it you'd have to undo the small wire on the far side of the relay and hook the battery back up. if it cranks, its the starter. If it doesn't crank, connect the wire you pulled back to the relay. If it cranks, its the relay.


    if the new plugs are the same number as the old and don't fit, I'll vote for a junk batch. I usually stick to Motorcraft plugs anymore. Last batch of Autolite I got didn't work right. 302's also like plain old copper plugs, so save your money.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  6. #6
    I like cars and stuff
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Windsor, ON
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    The starter will physically fit both, but the Panthers got the new starter introduced partway through model year 90. If you can find two wires going to your starter/see two wire terminals on it, it's a gear reduction starter (the newer type). If there is only one wire, the big fat one, then it's direct drive (the old type).

    However, if you never removed the wires from the studs on the relay since the last time it worked, then you did not mix up the wires (because you did not take them off).

    If there is suspicion (as mentioned above) that a direct drive starter might be marginal, replace it with the newer type...they're considered better in pretty much all ways.

    Plugs need to match heads. It does not look like the GT 40 heads share plugs with the stock heads on the Mustang engine.

    83 GM 2dr | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 (Pre-Op) | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards thread/Flickr

  7. #7

    Default

    Thank you Kishy.
    It is 96 Explorer heads.
    The starter is 10 -12 years old so I guess it's done it's Job well and time to rest.

  8. #8

    Default

    So good news. I went out this morning and tapped on the starter solenoid on the fender (its a 3 months old Wells brand from NAPA). It came unstuck. Glad its not starter related underneath. I'm going to buy a Motorcraft solenoid switch and keep it in the car for the day it is needed. I'm also thinking about installing a kill switch too.

    Thank you all again.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA
    Posts
    129

    Default

    I think you will have better luck with the Motorcraft solenoid versus the aftermarket imported stuff from the parts store. Search for a NOS one on Ebay.

  10. #10
    Fastest Box In South Jersey 86VickyLX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Westmont, New Jersey
    Posts
    10,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MattDoscher View Post
    I think you will have better luck with the Motorcraft solenoid versus the aftermarket imported stuff from the parts store. Search for a NOS one on Ebay.
    Get yourself a 95 ford f250 diesel glow plug relay. It's identical to a starter solenoid, except it has beefier internal contacts and requires the use of an additional ground on the bottom pin of the solenoid. They're roughly the same price, and you'll probably never have to replace it again. I did that a couple years ago and no more issues with the starter hanging up.
    "Vicky" 1986 Ford LTD Crown Victoria LX ..................................."Blue" 1992 Mercury Grand Marquis LS

    Vicky
    Too much stuff to list in my signature...
    Blue
    Mods So Far:
    5.0 HO Swap from 92 Cougar, GT40 Intakes With Remanufactured GT40P Heads, Contour Cooling Fans, Autodimming Mirror With Compass, Frankensteined but fully functional JBL Premium Sound System, Working A/C, Big Front Brake Swap, more mods to come soon!

  11. #11
    I like cars and stuff
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Windsor, ON
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 86VickyLX View Post
    glow plug relay
    There is a reason why it's potentially not a great idea to use the wrong part as discussed here: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...-starter-relay

    What is the incidence rate of a failure due to the diode being absent? Presumably quite low, but Ford saw fit to retrofit one into an existing design for a reason.

    Does the glow plug relay contain a diode of equal function? If so then it's a non-issue...if not, the above comes into play.

    As a semantic aside: the part being discussed is a relay.
    A solenoid is a coil that moves something by magnetism when energized.
    The relay (as do most or all) consists of a solenoid which uses magnetism to close the circuit.
    If the starter relay is called a "solenoid", then all ECM and fuel pump relays and so on should be called solenoids as well.
    Ford didn't even call the thing a solenoid in its shop manuals...
    Last edited by kishy; 02-12-2018 at 01:41 PM.

    83 GM 2dr | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 (Pre-Op) | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards thread/Flickr

  12. #12
    Fastest Box In South Jersey 86VickyLX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Westmont, New Jersey
    Posts
    10,135

    Default

    I would imagine since the PCM is the thing grounding the glow plug relay, I would imagine that there is diode suppression involved. Then again, I didn't look that much into it. I haven't had any issues, and I've had it in there for about 3 years now. And speaking of failures my car did have issues with frying ecms back when it had the original harness. Turned out there was some weird wiring present in the engine harness, and it used the old 60/70s starter relay/solenoid, and those definitely don't have diode suppression..

    However, It's proper to call it either. As the definition of solenoid via dictionary is as such:

    so·le·noid
    ˈsōləˌnoid,ˈsäləˌnoid/
    noun
    noun: solenoid; plural noun: solenoids

    • a cylindrical coil of wire acting as a magnet when carrying electric current.








    It's like saying motors are electric only. And you're wrong for calling an engine a motor because it's not electric. Yet manufacturers call motor oil just that. And it goes in our engines.

    If you look up starter relay it lists starter relays, and starter solenoids, and it's the same part number and everything.
    "Vicky" 1986 Ford LTD Crown Victoria LX ..................................."Blue" 1992 Mercury Grand Marquis LS

    Vicky
    Too much stuff to list in my signature...
    Blue
    Mods So Far:
    5.0 HO Swap from 92 Cougar, GT40 Intakes With Remanufactured GT40P Heads, Contour Cooling Fans, Autodimming Mirror With Compass, Frankensteined but fully functional JBL Premium Sound System, Working A/C, Big Front Brake Swap, more mods to come soon!

  13. #13
    I like cars and stuff
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Windsor, ON
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    Good point about the computer vs the glow plug relay...it's a fair assumption that the glow plug relay might include a diode then.

    Agreed that it isn't "wrong" to call the starter relay a starter solenoid. Speaking about the device from the perspective of its function, though, aids clarity (even if not by much).

    E.g. "I replaced the starter solenoid" on a gear reduction starter could refer to either part of the starter, or the relay on the fender, where if you say "I replaced the starter relay", there is no reason to assume anything other than the thing mounted on the fender (for our cars, anyway).

    83 GM 2dr | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 (Pre-Op) | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards thread/Flickr

  14. #14
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    35,852

    Default

    My Continental has a starter solenoid. My Towncar has a starter relay. My Mark VII has one of each.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  15. #15
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lewisville, TX
    Posts
    19,970

    Default

    For added security using the glow plug relay, just add a diode across the coil part. Something like a 1N4007 with the stripe towards the + side of the coil would probably sort it just fine and they are stupid cheap and robust as all get out. I would just mold the leads down the center isolation X and wrap the lead between a pair of washers.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  16. #16
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    35,852

    Default

    or a 1N5408 if you want something that looks more impressive and comes with fatter leads, but I doubt its needed.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  17. #17

    Default

    Is there a simple kill switch to put on that would prevent something happening like this again?

  18. #18
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Southern Commiefornia
    Posts
    1,832

    Default

    Well both my '90s had whatever-the-fuck you call the thingie that mounts on the inner fender. Notably, the starters sound much different. My first car had what i would call the "traditional"-sounding period Ford starter, while my new one has what sounds like the high-torque later-model one. Not sure why this is but whatever, it runs. I do have a spare replacement Motorcraft starter relay/solenoid dealie. Woo!

  19. #19
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Shelby Township, MI
    Posts
    2,371

    Default

    Like Tiggie mentioned, some of the '90s early in the model year had the old style starter. I would guess that your first '90 was built earlier in the model year than your second.
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - I'll fix it eventually
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  20. #20
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lewisville, TX
    Posts
    19,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stinkydogfilms View Post
    Is there a simple kill switch to put on that would prevent something happening like this again?
    Other than putting a battery disconnect on the starter side of the relay to manually cut it off if it welds itself shut, I can't think of anything to prevent a part from wearing out.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
GMN Approved Links!


www.rockauto.com www.adtr.net