More Starter Problems/Solenoid Etc

[sxcpotatoes]

Okay, this removes my Mark VI from the P.O.T.M. eligibility, as it's not running/driving/starting.

The starter began sticking on my '82 Mark VI, so I got a replacement solenoid. There were so many frickin' wires/terminals on the positive side I could hardly get the nut on. I had to mix and match and try to get it all to fit, and in the process I snapped the entire stud/terminal/plastic housing breaking the part.

So I got a glow plug relay, and wired up an extra ground. Starter stuck on me again, so I had the starter replaced with a lifetime NAPA unit by my mechanic, Dave (I had ordered a new starter, but got the wrong unit b/c I had ordered it for '91 GM, my brother used it in the '90 TC I traded him, and it was easier/faster just to have Dave get the part).

Well, when I picked it up, the damn thing stuck again! So I got a Standard brand Blue Streak fender solenoid, new ignition switch, etc, and had the mechanic who doesn't mind troubleshooting electrical stuff throw the parts on. I cautioned him that the terminals only fit on a certain way or the nut would not go on. I got the car back and it was starting ok, and then it sat for winter. I probably started it once or twice to run it to keep the battery charged.

Well, it stuck on me one more time, so I pulled the negative battery terminal. Well, my dad decide he was going to go try to start it and it stuck and he had to pull off the POSITIVE terminal to stop it turning over. Because the negative terminal "jammed on" or something and he couldn't get it pulled off.

Anyway, so the last time we went out to see what was what, I had my dad reconnect the negative terminal, and as it was sitting there, about 3-4 seconds after connecting the cable, it starts to crank, the ignition was in the OFF position.

I bought another solenoid (cheapo Standard is still $17), and in examining the wiring I found a second push on terminal tucked up near the wiring loom.

Here are pictures:

[sxcpotatoes]

Now, the black wire that goes down to the starter is on the rear stud (towards the firewall). There are the fat positive terminal from the battery, a two-solid orange wire to one terminal loop. A filthy solid yellow wire goes into the Fuse Link 20 GA and continues into the bundle, the other Fuse Link isn't labelled, but the wire color is yellow with a black stripe after the link with a bit of honey colored schmoo bubbled out. You can also see a solid red wire with a yellow milk can shaped bus fuse holder, and it's solid red where it goes into the wire loom too.

The push on snap/stud w/90-degree boots are both red, the one that was on it has a light blue stripe on the wire, the other that was tucked up and wasn't connected has a white stripe on the red wire. The red with light blue stripe was on the S terminal.

I'm currently hunting for my multimeter so I can do the checks Thain recommended in post #5 here: http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...light=solenoid

Crap I just found old photos from when I put the GPR in! BRB

[sxcpotatoes]

Ok, there's the old pictures from the Glow Plug Relay. When I put it in, I had to tuck the extra ground ring terminal under the snap on stud thing on the "I?" stud? I dunno, I just hooked up the red with white (black boot push on stud) to the I, and the Red boot Red/white stripe wire on the S terminal, the car started, and I ran back in the house to grab a water because I was going to go for a drive to charge up the battery etc. But when I came back out the car stalled. And wouldn't restart.

The solenoid went click, I think, but the interior lights don't work now, but pulling the negative battery wire and reconnecting gives me interior lights again. I'm not going to try starting it again just to have it fuck up. I don't have the negative cable tightened, but it is in good contact with the battery terminal.

The extra ground is nowhere in the system now, it's just hanging out of the wire loom tucked out of the way now with a traditional solenoid. I picked up a new cheapo Standard Solenoid, should I install it? Any suggestions? Do I have the wires I/S backwards? I have the wiring manual here and the only wire mentioned as Red/Lt Blue shows going to the neutral safety switch, but it also shows going to the ignition lock/module, the other wire from the solenoid says PK/BK (I'm assuming pink/black) and it goes to ignition control module, or so the wiring book states. I see no wire like this.

[DerekTheGreat]

I really think your problems with the solenoid could be swept away with a Motorcraft solenoid, that's what fixed it for me on 2 Ford trucks, one '85 LTD and one '88 Town Car. THe other ones just seem to weld themselves closed circuit, no matter what the box states in terms of quality..

[sxcpotatoes]

I don't know if Motorcraft are available anymore, Derek, the ones I found on Amazon are like, Mexican Refurbs or something. RockAuto only has Airtex/Wells.

[kishy]

Whoa, information. Hold up a sec here. I'm having a hard time absorbing everything so pardon me if I've missed something:

The mid90-91 PMGR starter is an upgrade and you'd have been well advised to use it, along with the minor wiring adjustment to support it. However, since you didn't, let's work with what you've got.

Repeat starter relay (solenoid) failures are not commonly due to the part itself that is failing. A starter that is drawing too much energy will weld the contacts closed or burn them to the point they won't engage/conduct.

Motorcraft parts are not made any different than the same part made by the third party that produced it. It's the exact same junk in a different box. I heavily suspect that Wells makes the Motorcraft ones but I don't remember why I suspect that. Anyway...

Your loss of working interior lighting suggests that you may have popped a circuit breaker, possibly the big fat one that hangs off the positive stud (in an unmodified setup). They are self-resetting, so disconnect battery negative and reconnect it, your stuff should start working again.

Unless the glow plug relays are wired VERY different: do not put anything on the other small stud ("I" terminal on a starter relay) if you didn't have anything there before you began. If your car was working with the second rubber plug not connected, leave it the way it was.

I'm going to study your pics a little closer and see if I can figure out WTF is going on here. But I needed to get the above info out.

[sxcpotatoes]

I'd been having the starter sticking problem periodically for over a year. Replacing the solenoid the car came with, with a Glow Plug Relay and the wires connected the same way.

When I ordered the '91 GM updated starter it did not fit, physically, for some reason.

[sly]

Just a reminder... this car is a badly wired HO swap that I repaired many vampire taps and crap crimps on when I had the car. Figuring out wiring on this thing may be a royal PITA. That said... it should still be using the original 82 wiring for the starter but have the Mustang wiring for the engine. So it may need the S and I terminals both used to work right. That was one of the mysteries I never solved. I just made sure to not screw with stuff when it worked.

[kishy]

Well...I had wondered about that, knowing it was HO swapped. I didn't know how much of the car was still wired the original way.

'S' terminal is the 12V input from the ignition switch (but it comes to it through the NSS, so the NSS can lockout the starter), which activates the relay.

There should be no ground wires connecting to any terminal on one of these relays ever. They are all hots/switched hots. The relay grounds through the mounting bolts.

I have experienced the "single click followed by everything being dead in the whole car until battery disconnect/reconnect" when a battery has been weak, or when a terminal connection has not been good. I don't understand why this situation makes circuit breakers trip, but I think it has something to do with the relationship between voltage and current. No need to mathematically figure that one out here though, but it's worth noting that it may happen if the battery is now quite run-down from cranking a silly amount.

[gadget73]

Does it keep cranking if you pull the small wire off the solenoid? If it stops when that is removed, that would point the problem in a different direction. I could make a few guesses as to what ails it if its an issue on the skinny wire circuit but lets not confuse the issue yet.

The second push-on wire is possibly a leftover from the original wiring harness. Having no idea precisely how they de-wired the original setup and wired in the new, there might be "artifacts" that do nothing. Are they both the same color? That points towards leftover start circuit stuff. If its a different color, that may be leftover ignition circuit stuff that originally tied to the I terminal.

also just for clarification here, you're running the old style fat starter with just one cable, yes?


The glow plug relay I believe requires a ground connection. The standard ones ground through their mounting.

[sxcpotatoes]

Yes, it's the one-fat wire starter. I guess both push-on wires were in place originally, one has a black head and is red with a white stripe, the other has a red head (90-degree rubber boot) and is red with a light blue stripe.

This should have nothing to do with it, but I did switch the positive and negative cables when I upgraded to a group 65 battery because the terminal sides are switched vs the other model battery. They just barely fit on well, so I may need to find a slightly longer set, or at least a slightly longer Negative cable. I may replace the fat starter wire while I'm at it. But I haven't found my multimeter yet to test stuff. Who knows how old or internally corroded the cables are.

The battery may be low from sitting, but the only way I have to charge it is jumper cables off another running vehicle in my driveway (because I'm not buying an expensive battery charger/tester unit I'll never really use or only use once). It may go back to the shop, for proper diagnosis/testing, I dunno.

[DerekTheGreat]

...Motorcraft parts are not made any different than the same part made by the third party that produced it. It's the exact same junk in a different box. I heavily suspect that Wells makes the Motorcraft ones but I don't remember why I suspect that. Anyway...

In most cases I'd agree but in this particular one I do not. I went through the parts store ones and then got a Motorcraft.. Never had to touch it again after the Motorcraft one went on. Before that, I kept a rubber mallet and an old flathead in the glovebox.. Maybe that new starter could be junk, shorting out or something. It certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade to the newer starter.

[sxcpotatoes]

Maybe that new starter could be junk, shorting out or something. It certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade to the newer starter.

You. Cannot. Upgrade. To. The. Newer. Starter. It. Does. Not. Bolt. ON. Here's the starter I got for the '91, it's the new/newer starter, and it's BRAND NEW, not remanufactured. https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical...trical+SFD0001

When it came time to order one for the Mark VI, I ordered another one of the same style/model starter thinking it would fit, plug in 1982 Lincoln Mark VI base 2-door in Amazon's parts-checker toolbar if it doesn't automatically load with the above link. The starter that came off of it, and the replacement one have the bump-style protrusion instead of the semi-gas tank style cylinder like the above part: https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-336-1...ywords=starter

If the new style starter fit, my mechanic would have put the damn thing on, and would not have called me saying 'you got the wrong starter.'

[kishy]

Something changed about the bellhousing, then, between 82 and 83, because I put one in my 83 just fine.

Not worth arguing about. Your mechanic couldn't do it, so it didn't happen. The car requires a wiring change to support the new starter. It's possible your mechanic did not realize you intended to do that and that's why he said the starter wouldn't work. It is a 2-wire starter, not a 1-wire starter.

If the glowplug relay requires a dedicated ground, then ground it. I was under the impression the glow plug relay had been taken off in favour of the starter relay type.

I made this attachment. Looking at your pics I think you've got it right, but it might be worth taking a look at it again. Especially if you might have, at any point, attached a "leftover extra start wire" to the "I" terminal...because depending on how the car is (mis)wired the relay would have never turned off if that happened.

[sly]

you don't have to change the wiring to put the newer starter in if it fits. Just connect the start wire to the fat wire. Done. That's what I did on the Mad Marquis.