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    Detonation/pinging

    Hey everyone, so I have a strange issue going on with my new set up. I put an edelBrock four barrel carburetor on my 351, gt40 heads, stock cam. Currently running around 11.3:1 fuel mixture WOT, so not lean. Under full throttle and higher RPMs it pings. I took the initial timing Down from 12, to 5, and it helped, but it’s still there a little bit. I’ve lost a lot of power doing this as well... anyone have any suggestions? I should be able to run regular 87 gas with this setup no problem...
    -Phil

    sigpic

    +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

    +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

    #2
    whats the distributor setup? Ported or manifold vac? Might try manifold vac if its ported since that will reduce timing when you bump the throttle down to help with this. Might also need to look at what advance plate and spring setup is in there to re-curve the distributor to limit max mechanical advance. Plug temperature could also be a factor, if they are too hot it will be more inclined to detonate.
    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Originally posted by phayzer5
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

    Comment


      #3
      It’s the stock dizzy with an aftermarket pickup/module in it. The vacuum goes to a bunch of vacuum regulators in the intake, so I’m not entirely sure, but I can easily test it. I’d really like to keep the power I had with the advance, it was significantly more with it advanced, and didn’t seem to drop off when it was pinging
      -Phil

      sigpic

      +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

      +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

      Comment


        #4
        Sounds like Mr. EGR might not be happy (IIRC you still have one?). Assuming it’s a stock valve, verify vacuum to it and that it moves under vacuum.
        1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
        1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

        GMN Box Panther History
        Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
        Box Panther Production Numbers

        Comment


          #5
          I do have EGR, but you think something is happening to it under wide open throttle? It should be completely closed, if it came open during WOT, wouldnt this just limit power?
          -Phil

          sigpic

          +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

          +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

          Comment


            #6
            Well if you like the power try mid-grade fuel.
            03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
            02 SL500 Silver Arrow
            08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
            12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

            Comment


              #7
              vacuum regulators ? what? Normally with those Eddy carbs you get 2 ports on the front to pick from. One is ported, one is not. I forget which is which but the manual that comes with it should explain. Or just pull the caps, the one that sucks at idle is not ported vacuum.

              You wouldn't want to retard the base timing, just limit how much it can advance at full tilt. If its getting vac advance at full throttle its probably a little too much. Some vac advance cans are adjustable to limit maximum advance too.

              http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...r-Timing-Guide

              explains more about the particulars.

              worth a quick and dirty test, unhook the vac advance and see if the pinging stops. If it does, you know the vac is adding more timing than the engine can deal with. If not, its probably the advance limiter plate that needs to be changed.
              Last edited by gadget73; 03-30-2019, 10:39 PM.
              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

              Originally posted by phayzer5
              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

              Comment


                #8
                I'm using the stock vacuum system to run the EGR, and the dizzy, it consists of 2 vacuum ports that are controlled by coolant temperature, and another vacuum control valve. One is fed by the ported vacuum, and one is fed by the manifold vacuum. I double checked that they are on the correct source. I can send you a picture of the diagram if you like, but both the EGR, and the dizzy are hooked up to operate as the engine would in a stock application. The vacuum advance shouldnt be working under WOT in normal conditions from what I've been reading (i read through the link you sent as well and have a better understanding of how advance works)

                What I dont understand is why an 8.7:1 compression motor that only goes up to 4500RPM, is having detonation problems this badly, when it didn't have them before the carb change. Actually come to think of it, it did have a slight rattle to it, however not as badly as it has now... hmm.

                If i limit my total advance to a place where it's happy, and keep my initial advance at a place where it's happy (say 12). should I theoretically get some power back?
                -Phil

                sigpic

                +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

                +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

                Comment


                  #9
                  Do you have cats?
                  03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                  02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                  08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                  12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I do have cats
                    -Phil

                    sigpic

                    +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

                    +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

                    Comment


                      #11
                      New?
                      03 Marauder DPB, HS, 6disk, Organizer Mods> LED's in & Out, M&Z rear control arms, Oil deflector, U-Haul Trans Pan, Blue Fuzzy Dice
                      02 SL500 Silver Arrow
                      08 TC Signature Limited, HID's Mods>235/55-17 Z rated BFG G-Force Comp-2 A/S Plus, Addco 1" rear Sway, Posi Carrier, Compustar Remote Start, floor liners, trunk organizer, Two part Sun Visors, B&M Trans drain Plug, Winter=05 Mustang GT rims, Nokian Hakkapeliitta R-2 235/55-17
                      12 Escape Limited V6 AWD, 225/65R17 Vredestein Quatrac Pro, Winter 235/70-16 Conti Viking Contact7 Mods>Beamtech LED headlight bulbs, Husky floor liners

                      Comment


                        #12
                        How old is the timing chain in this engine, have you checked it to see if it is worn or stretched out?

                        Pretty much double check the basics then look into the carb. What CFM is it? what jets does it have in it? is the accelerator pump adjustable and working properly?

                        and yes make sure the EGR is working properly.
                        2007 Ford Crown Victoria LX Sport

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Brown_Muscle View Post
                          I'm using the stock vacuum system to run the EGR, and the dizzy, it consists of 2 vacuum ports that are controlled by coolant temperature, and another vacuum control valve. One is fed by the ported vacuum, and one is fed by the manifold vacuum. I double checked that they are on the correct source. I can send you a picture of the diagram if you like, but both the EGR, and the dizzy are hooked up to operate as the engine would in a stock application. The vacuum advance shouldnt be working under WOT in normal conditions from what I've been reading (i read through the link you sent as well and have a better understanding of how advance works)

                          What I dont understand is why an 8.7:1 compression motor that only goes up to 4500RPM, is having detonation problems this badly, when it didn't have them before the carb change. Actually come to think of it, it did have a slight rattle to it, however not as badly as it has now... hmm.

                          If i limit my total advance to a place where it's happy, and keep my initial advance at a place where it's happy (say 12). should I theoretically get some power back?

                          has to do with the shape of the combustion chambers and a lot of other details. Carbon in the chambers can make it ping too.

                          Limiting total advance should sort the ping without costing you low speed power. Again assuming thats the issue. I'd pop that vac advance line off first just to confirm it is working as expected. If one of those thermo switches leaks or sticks internally you might be getting vac signal you don't expect.
                          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                          Originally posted by phayzer5
                          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The cats probably have 15K on them? maybe 7 years old?

                            Timing chain only has a few thousand miles on it.

                            I'm tuning with a wideband, so i know exactly what the fuel mixture is as it's happening.

                            Both the EGR, and Ported vacuum advance are working, and coming in at the RPM's they should.

                            I took the dizzy apart. I found I was running 12 degrees initial, plus another 42 degrees mechanical. WAYYY to high! I know the duraspark III system provided timing retardation...perhaps this is why. Using the instructions from that website I was able to limit the mechanical to 24 degrees. I then test drove it. Still pinging, so i continued to remove initial timing to see how much more i needed to remove from the mechanical side. Well it stopped pinging after I reached about 24 degrees TOTAL timing... That's way lower than most people are running with small block fords. I don't mind modifying the mechanical advance to give me 14 degrees of advance, and set the initial to 10, however this doesn't seem right. It pulls fairly well at this amount of timing WOT....so maybe it's OK?
                            -Phil

                            sigpic

                            +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. Built 351w, Trickflow 11R 190 Heads, Holley Sniper EFI, RPM Intake+ Hyperspark dizzy, WR-AOD, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, HPP Steering Box.

                            +2003 Acura CL Type S 6-speed

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Any chance your harmonic balancer slipped and the marks are off?
                              1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
                              1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

                              GMN Box Panther History
                              Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
                              Box Panther Production Numbers

                              Comment

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