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    #91
    ECM has no idea if the cats are there or working. It will not affect anything.

    Does the fuel mix change if you remove the belt from the smog pump ? If it does, the smog pump control system is not working correctly and its pumping air into the back of the heads constantly. That makes the O2 sensor read lean, and it adds fuel to compensate. Pull the belt and see what happens.
    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Originally posted by phayzer5
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

    Comment


      #92
      We'll see what the mechanic has to say when he calls, he did mention that the fuel mix is fine when the air pump is ON, but when it turns off, mixture goes rich. I don't know exactly what everything they did checking the air pump system. All I know about the air pump system is, it injects air to the cylinder heads and/or to the cats.

      I'll ask him about the TFI module, the coil was supposedly fine, the question is, is the problem between the dizzy cap and the coil, or in the damn wiring/ecm?
      I wonder what can be eliminated from the emissions systems without upsetting the computer like there's no tomorrow.
      1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
      1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

      Comment


        #93
        Today's agenda:
        Mechanic tried three different testers on the distributor, didn't get any result from any of them. Personally I've never heard of a dizzy tester, I have nothing to say about this. We discussed shortly about the TFI module, and I gave the green light to order a new distributor and TFI module, since they are not that expensive at this point.

        He will also open and check them ECM for broken solders or leaked capasitors.

        If still no luck, they will go through every single wire, connector, pin and ground in the engine bay.
        I don't know what'll happen after that, and neither do they.
        1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
        1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

        Comment


          #94
          there is apparently some way of ohm checking the TFI module, but most people just replace them and see if the problem went away. Same with the pickup. I don't know that I'd trust the tester to give accurate results of what the thing is doing once it gets good and hot.


          If the smog pump is affecting the reading at the oxygen sensor, that is not normal. It will change what you get beyond the converter, especially if the engine isn't really hot. The converter wants extra air to do it's thing. What you want to do is put a voltmeter on the output of the oxygen sensor and see if it changes when the smog pump is operating with a warmed up engine. It should not. If the valves for the smog pump are forced into the position where air is injected into the back of the head, the sensor should read lean. It will inject air to the back of the heads when the engine is cold. The ECM will never come out of "warm up" mode if the coolant temperature sensor is not working properly. Thats also a volt or ohm check, easy to do.

          http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinjection/page28.html

          ECT should be screwed into the fitting where the heater hose attaches, front right corner of the intake manifold.
          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

          Originally posted by phayzer5
          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

          Comment


            #95
            The fuel mixture was checked at the tailpipe, with an external sensor. There's where the difference can be seen when the air pump is on/off.
            Temp sensors are supposedly checked to be good or changed to new ones.

            I appreciate all the recommendations on what to check, but car is still at a mechanic and I'm in another city, so I cant exactly do those myself
            1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
            1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

            Comment


              #96
              ask him to check the output of the oxygen sensor in the manifold to see if it changes with / without the smog pump. A voltmeter connected to the sensor wire will do the job.
              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

              Originally posted by phayzer5
              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

              Comment


                #97
                New distributor and TFI module didn't help.

                Next up, they'll rewiring and repinning things, so far, no blatantly obvious wiring issues.
                They'll check if the air pump is functioning correctly, even though it seems so, it injects air to the cats for a few minutes after startup. To my understanding, it injects air to the cylinder heads according to the computer and its inputs to achieve the best efficiency.
                They will also double check the ACT and ECT to verify they work correctly.
                Also the cats might've been emptied at some point, apparently there's absolutely no back pressure. He wondered if the lack of backpressure can throw off the oxygen sensor reading. I told them to not go changing cats yet, those are effin expensive and the cost doubles just to get them to Finland.
                They ordered a new ECM.
                The mechanic confessed that this case has been the most complicated one yet, by far, and he doesn't just do regular maintenance. He's a bit concerned that there might be something mechanically wrong, they'll do a compression test and pull the valve covers to check for anything loose under there. Worn valve springs, lifters or so on. Though I haven't heard any valve train noise from this thing, ever. Only the ticking of the injectors.

                At this point, it would've been cheaper to go with a carb conversion, even with brand-new parts.



                Sigh...
                1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                Comment


                  #98
                  back-pressure is not needed. The cats being there or not also won't matter. If you don't need them for emissions, I'd leave them empty and not worry about it.


                  multiport EFI is the way to go. And you should still have that timing chain replaced if its original.
                  86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                  5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                  91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                  1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                  Originally posted by phayzer5
                  I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                  Comment


                    #99
                    What are the main benefits for going from CFI to SEFI or EFi (which is which and what looks like what?), amd ultimately in comparison to a proper 4bbl carb?
                    A carb is something I somewhat know my way around, with a HEI distributor, fuel+spark would be simple as it gets.
                    Also carb because when this moneypit stops being a moneypit, maybe I'll save up a bit to get some more horses from this rather docile 302. From what i've understood, CFI or EFI don't like different heads and headers or cams. Please do educate if I'm wrong.
                    The emissions crap is something I'd like to know more about too, as far as I know, the CFI ECM gets the dumbdumb if something isn't there or not functioning. EGR, Thermactor and so on, can these things be programmed out somehow with EFI?
                    I am not 100% sure about the emissions legalities about my car , but I'll do some reading.
                    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                    1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                    Comment


                      Sorry for double post,
                      Then there's the question of availability, here in Finland, I can't just go to a junkyard, those are full of Corollas, Renaults and other turds. Sourcing parts for an EFI would be very time consuming at least, the manifold I can source via some forums most likely, but the harness and other electrical bits and bobs would be a PITA.
                      Do EFI use what parts of a CFI? Distributor, coil, ECM?
                      1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                      1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                      Comment


                        It sounds like the mechanic is throwing parts at it, which is a good diet plan for your wallet as you have discovered.

                        There are three threads in the Box Tech/Electrical forum with CFI to SEFI conversion posts. From what I gather, on the 84/85 it’s not that bad but you do need a donor. Donor cars here are getting hard to find, so I bet there it’s near impossible up there. You would probably need someone in the US to put together a conversion package for you and send it up your way.

                        If the car is a daily driver, I would strongly consider the SEFI if we can figure out a way to get parts to you. I have been driving my 88 SEFI daily for 12 years and it has never failed to start, run nicely, and take me where I need to go.

                        If the car is an occasional driver and you prefer the carb, run it.
                        1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
                        1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

                        GMN Box Panther History
                        Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
                        Box Panther Production Numbers

                        Comment


                          As is, the car seems to have two issues; breaking up / misfiring at idle and low throttle and the very rich fuel mixture.

                          From the ignition side, plugs, plug wires, coil has been checked good, TFI module and distributor (all parts) changed, and the wiring has been gone through. Base timing adjusted to correct 10BTDC, should check timing chain for looseness. ECM left.
                          Fuel: New injectors, pressure regulator, fuel pressure is good, new oxygen sensor, new ect sensor, act sensor checked good, thermactor system supposedly works good, egr probably too. (@kishy would you kindly?)

                          Car was supposed to be a daily driver, I certainly wouldn't mind the new car -esque starting and throttle response, I'm guessing the EFI (mass-air?) ECM is programmable and won't go batshit crazy about a thermactor delete or such. The big plus for the carb is that it's simple, easily attainable and I somewhat know how to work on one. Then there's the cold starting, driveability, and (lack of) fuel economy... Not a fan of the EFI massive upper intake, but that's the least of my problems.
                          I'm getting a ~500€ winter beater soon, since the MGM needs rustproofing and studded tires, which would cost at least as much
                          1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                          1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                          Comment


                            A well tuned carb would probably work fine as a daily, even on colder days with a 10-15 minute warm up time. The only thing you would need to know is how much to adjust it for large changes in altitude. Wide band oxygen sensor would help loads with tuning... though a voltmeter on the stock sensor and a carb with the ability to adjust mixtures while running would also work well.

                            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                            rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                            Originally posted by gadget73
                            ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                            Originally posted by dmccaig
                            Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                            Comment


                              What kind of symptoms does a loose timing chain emit in these cars? Or just same shit as with everything else?

                              I've been discussing with the mechanic, he's been opening up the wire looming to check for faulty wiring, but nothing yet, there doesn't seem to be many possible culprits left, other than the wiring which so far seems "fine". A faulty ECM? That could fix both of the issues, if that's it. I'll also be discussing about all the parts he's gone through, since it's kinda absurd to charge me alot for things that didn't fix shit.

                              I've been browsing local forums and marketplaces, I'm sure I could source an EFI intake manifold somewhat cheap, other things to find locally would probably be the headers and the throttle body, since they weight alot and private freight is expensive, unless it comes by ship, but that takes for bloody ever. Wiring, sensors and linkages would probably be easier and cheaper to get from the States.

                              Originally posted by sly View Post
                              A well tuned carb would probably work fine as a daily, even on colder days with a 10-15 minute warm up time.
                              What does "colder days" mean when said by a texan? Where I live in Finland, mean temperature is below freezing for 3-4 months a year, the colder days last winter were around -20°C/-4°F, peaking at -30°C/-22°F. Not exactly the most carb-friendly climate eh? Considering my commute is about 20 minutes, 10-15 min warm up is a bit steep. I intended to winter drive it, but probably not if I go carb. I'm getting a winter beater for this winter, next summer I'll get the GMQ properly rust-proofed and get some winter tires (and a block heater probably too) for it.

                              Altitude changes are a definite non-issue in Finland:
                              Click image for larger version

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                              1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                              1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                              Comment


                                Down to -40C with a block heater on it. I'd say down to at least -20C without a block heater as I've seen -4F here in Texas (yeah, sometimes it does actually get COLD here) when I had an 1985 Pontiac Parisienne (Chevy Caprice) with a 305 and quadrajet carb. Cranked right up, but didn't run well until the engine got above freezing. Stayed in high idle almost all the way to work. I did have to give it 10-15 minutes to warm up before it would not die going into gear though. That was about it.

                                Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                                rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                                Originally posted by gadget73
                                ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                                Originally posted by dmccaig
                                Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                                Comment

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