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Thread: Happy to join this community! Mostly looking for help though...

  1. #81
    The Brown Blob 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    Lol nice.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

  2. #82
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    The smog pump should not affect the fuel mix. If the oxygen sensor is bad, or if the smog pump is constantly pumping air into the back of the heads it will run very rich. Same if the MAP is bad, or has low vacuum signal.

    For what its worth, I've never had a bad oxygen sensor give a code. The only time I get codes is when the engine is legitimately running rich or lean. Last bad CFI O2 sensor I ran into did fail in a way that made it run rich. The car ran absolutely fine, but the fuel economy was horrible.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  3. #83
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    I'll talk with the mechanic about the oxygen sensors, that might be the next step anyways, if clean injectors doesnt help.
    As long as I've had the car, it has consistently gotten 15-16 mpg in mixed driving, I dont know how bad that is for these flying bricks.

    We'll see, atleast those ego sensors aren't that expensive, if it comes to that.

  4. #84
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    There is only one sensor on a CFI model

    15-16 is about right but not that many things will explain a really rich fuel mixture and no code. If the engine is rich and the ECM doesn't whine about it, something is wrong. Unless the smog pump is constantly injecting air into the heads and causing the oxygen sensor to have incorrect readings. Pumping air into the heads will look like a lean mixture so the ECM will add fuel.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  5. #85
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arquemann View Post
    Ego sensors were supposedly alright, not the best but in "working condition".
    Faulty ego sensors would pop a code probably, right? Still no codes.

    Map sensor is probably original, I dunno. I have literally zero service history, I have the latest inspection receipt/whatever, but the pleather mercury -pouch had someones phone number collection and nothing else.

    Shop will have the parts in a day or two, and will put it back together asap. I really hope that stuff fixes the issue, along with the vacuum leak fixes.

    I cant wait to get the car back so I can park it overly close to my classes' dickhead's bmw, whos always fucking with me about me liking american cars.
    No-one in my uni class gives a shit about american cars and a few dipshits have an idiotic need to give me a hard time about my passion which does not align with theirs.
    Their tough luck when my "oversized" landyacht is blocking the drivers door and they have to squeeze through a tiny gap or climb over their center consoles. My doors are already a bit dinged up and the paint's faded. Have fun swiping your plastic bumpers against my crooked steel bumper and see which one cracks first. I mean hey its my "underpowered, gas guzzling, archaic and boat-like" chariot of pure awesomeness and classic luxury that has automatic air conditioning and power seats, which your sad little base model 3-series does not have

    Damn I love my car
    Hell yeah. I take near-constant ribbing about my "old-man" cars, which thus far have proven to be more reliable than pretty much everything these people own. I just chuckle as i explain to them that EVERYTHING on my 30-year-old shitbox works, while their 5-10 year-old cars have spent as much time in the shop as on the road. Who's the real jerk here?

  6. #86
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    people act amazed when I tell them all the power and option stuff on my cars work. I guess fixing things is just an out of date concept.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  7. #87
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    people act amazed when I tell them all the power and option stuff on my cars work. I guess fixing things is just an out of date concept.
    This. Then they ask how much it costs me to keep it running. I tell them lifetime warranties are great. Hasn't cost me much for the past 6-8 years.

    Except for that whole engine swap thing and re-wire and OBD-II hack in that Scott and Thain did.

    Edit: along with several others that helped get that car running again.
    Last edited by sly; 09-01-2019 at 11:32 PM.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  8. #88
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    I guess fixing things is just an out of date concept.
    Words to live by for most Americans, sadly.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

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  9. #89
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Had a talk with the mechanic again, new injectors and fuel pressure regulator installed, no noticeable change, something is still making the thing run really rich.
    The oxygen sensor was actually changed to a new one as one of the first things after the rich diagnosis. He forgot to mention that last time.

    Apparently the catalytic converters are done, either they have been emptied, or I've burned a hole through them as I've driven ~1200 miles as is since buying it. Great...
    If the cats are toast, could that get the ECM to do stupid things?

    Also it would seem the misfire / breaking up at low throttle is still an ignition issue, from what the mechanic said. He has a tester of some sort coming in a day, SNEC-4 or something like that.
    Time for a new dizzy? From what I've read the TFI modules don't half-work, either work fine or you've got no spark. Plugs and plug wires were also double checked.
    Can a wiring issue cause a misfire that happens only on idle/low throttle?

    "It ought to be a simple fix, change plug wires and such, it's been sitting for a long time" -my father from the back seat after the test drive. I could've got an '88 MGM and SEFI for 2k more, instead I wanted the pre-facelift front and the brothel-red interior. And along with that, came a wheelbarrow of problems.

    I just want my damn car!

  10. #90
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    I believe all sensors on these cars are pre-cats, so I don't think the ECM cares if the cats are even there or not.

    I had a TFI module cause a misfire at high RPMS before. I was able to narrow it down to the TFI since I had multiple TFI modules and multiple distributors which I swapped around a bit and the problem always followed that TFI module regardless of which distributor it was installed on. So it's possible, even if not common, for a TFI module to do stupid things other than no spark at all.
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - I'll fix it eventually
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  11. #91
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    ECM has no idea if the cats are there or working. It will not affect anything.

    Does the fuel mix change if you remove the belt from the smog pump ? If it does, the smog pump control system is not working correctly and its pumping air into the back of the heads constantly. That makes the O2 sensor read lean, and it adds fuel to compensate. Pull the belt and see what happens.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  12. #92
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    We'll see what the mechanic has to say when he calls, he did mention that the fuel mix is fine when the air pump is ON, but when it turns off, mixture goes rich. I don't know exactly what everything they did checking the air pump system. All I know about the air pump system is, it injects air to the cylinder heads and/or to the cats.

    I'll ask him about the TFI module, the coil was supposedly fine, the question is, is the problem between the dizzy cap and the coil, or in the damn wiring/ecm?
    I wonder what can be eliminated from the emissions systems without upsetting the computer like there's no tomorrow.

  13. #93
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Today's agenda:
    Mechanic tried three different testers on the distributor, didn't get any result from any of them. Personally I've never heard of a dizzy tester, I have nothing to say about this. We discussed shortly about the TFI module, and I gave the green light to order a new distributor and TFI module, since they are not that expensive at this point.

    He will also open and check them ECM for broken solders or leaked capasitors.

    If still no luck, they will go through every single wire, connector, pin and ground in the engine bay.
    I don't know what'll happen after that, and neither do they.

  14. #94
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    there is apparently some way of ohm checking the TFI module, but most people just replace them and see if the problem went away. Same with the pickup. I don't know that I'd trust the tester to give accurate results of what the thing is doing once it gets good and hot.


    If the smog pump is affecting the reading at the oxygen sensor, that is not normal. It will change what you get beyond the converter, especially if the engine isn't really hot. The converter wants extra air to do it's thing. What you want to do is put a voltmeter on the output of the oxygen sensor and see if it changes when the smog pump is operating with a warmed up engine. It should not. If the valves for the smog pump are forced into the position where air is injected into the back of the head, the sensor should read lean. It will inject air to the back of the heads when the engine is cold. The ECM will never come out of "warm up" mode if the coolant temperature sensor is not working properly. Thats also a volt or ohm check, easy to do.

    http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinjection/page28.html

    ECT should be screwed into the fitting where the heater hose attaches, front right corner of the intake manifold.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  15. #95
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    The fuel mixture was checked at the tailpipe, with an external sensor. There's where the difference can be seen when the air pump is on/off.
    Temp sensors are supposedly checked to be good or changed to new ones.

    I appreciate all the recommendations on what to check, but car is still at a mechanic and I'm in another city, so I cant exactly do those myself

  16. #96
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    ask him to check the output of the oxygen sensor in the manifold to see if it changes with / without the smog pump. A voltmeter connected to the sensor wire will do the job.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  17. #97
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    New distributor and TFI module didn't help.

    Next up, they'll rewiring and repinning things, so far, no blatantly obvious wiring issues.
    They'll check if the air pump is functioning correctly, even though it seems so, it injects air to the cats for a few minutes after startup. To my understanding, it injects air to the cylinder heads according to the computer and its inputs to achieve the best efficiency.
    They will also double check the ACT and ECT to verify they work correctly.
    Also the cats might've been emptied at some point, apparently there's absolutely no back pressure. He wondered if the lack of backpressure can throw off the oxygen sensor reading. I told them to not go changing cats yet, those are effin expensive and the cost doubles just to get them to Finland.
    They ordered a new ECM.
    The mechanic confessed that this case has been the most complicated one yet, by far, and he doesn't just do regular maintenance. He's a bit concerned that there might be something mechanically wrong, they'll do a compression test and pull the valve covers to check for anything loose under there. Worn valve springs, lifters or so on. Though I haven't heard any valve train noise from this thing, ever. Only the ticking of the injectors.

    At this point, it would've been cheaper to go with a carb conversion, even with brand-new parts.



    Sigh...

  18. #98
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    back-pressure is not needed. The cats being there or not also won't matter. If you don't need them for emissions, I'd leave them empty and not worry about it.


    multiport EFI is the way to go. And you should still have that timing chain replaced if its original.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  19. #99
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    What are the main benefits for going from CFI to SEFI or EFi (which is which and what looks like what?), amd ultimately in comparison to a proper 4bbl carb?
    A carb is something I somewhat know my way around, with a HEI distributor, fuel+spark would be simple as it gets.
    Also carb because when this moneypit stops being a moneypit, maybe I'll save up a bit to get some more horses from this rather docile 302. From what i've understood, CFI or EFI don't like different heads and headers or cams. Please do educate if I'm wrong.
    The emissions crap is something I'd like to know more about too, as far as I know, the CFI ECM gets the dumbdumb if something isn't there or not functioning. EGR, Thermactor and so on, can these things be programmed out somehow with EFI?
    I am not 100% sure about the emissions legalities about my car , but I'll do some reading.

  20. #100
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Sorry for double post,
    Then there's the question of availability, here in Finland, I can't just go to a junkyard, those are full of Corollas, Renaults and other turds. Sourcing parts for an EFI would be very time consuming at least, the manifold I can source via some forums most likely, but the harness and other electrical bits and bobs would be a PITA.
    Do EFI use what parts of a CFI? Distributor, coil, ECM?

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