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Thread: Happy to join this community! Mostly looking for help though...

  1. #1
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Default Happy to join this community! Mostly looking for help though...

    New member here, greetings from Finland!
    A few weeks ago I picked up this turd:
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    1985 Grand Marquis LS 302 CFI w/ 101k miles and a lovely dark red plush interior.

    Biggest issues so far:
    Stalls/shuts off a lot when stopping or going at very low speeds, idles rough (shakes and stumbles, stalled a few times too, RPM seems fine though), most of the time when trying to maintain speed or decelerating it's really jerky and stumbles sharply. When accelerating its completely fine and seems to run good, runs "alright" on fast idle when cold. Fires up really nice most of the time, but with a puff of black smoke.
    I've replaced: Plugwires, cap and rotor (stalling stopped for 3 days), then plugs. Nothing changed since. I've also emptied half a can of carb cleaner at the CFI unit and ran a botle of injection cleaner through the fuel system.
    Car had mostly sat for the last 3 years, so problems probably coming from that.

    Other than that, it's awesome! Rides excellent otherwise, no clunks, rattles or squeaks. All the lights work, AC blows reeeally cold, cruise control worked 2 of 25 times and the interior is in really good shape (apart from being slightly sunburnt being a Florida car), dash isn't cracked and only a little bit of rust on the door bottoms and trunk edges. The paint is totally faded and feels like sandpaper when washing it and the vinyl top used to red but was shoddily painted white. Also I need to get the hubcaps off but I have no tool for the lockbolts...

    Any and all advice greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    Welcome. My favorite color combo.

    On the hubcaps, I used an angle grinder with a cut off wheel to cut slats in my lock bolts, now they go on and off with a large screwdriver.

    My gut says you may have an EGR problem. Could be dirty, or the valve could be bad, or a vacuum issue to the valve. Have a look see and see if it has vacuum, moves under vacuum, and if it’s clean inside.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
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    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    Welcome!

    +1, grind a slot in each locking bolt to get the hubcaps off with a large screw driver.
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  4. #4
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
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    Welcome! Sounds like you could possibly have a vacuum leak as well. I don't know the usual issues cfi cars have but this sounds like classic vacuum leak to me. Spray starting fluid or any other flammable spray around the intake manifold, vacuum lines, etc. to see if idle changes. You may have already checked this but just throwing it out there.

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    Member clutch47's Avatar
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    Welcome...
    LOTS of info here.
    How's the price and quality of fuel in Finland.?
    I'm finding out my car really likes 91 or better octane fuel. I don't normally buy anything else but I thought I'd give it a shot.
    All FORD All The Time

  6. #6
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    So, I removed the EGR valve and checked it, it seems usually black and sooty on the inside, leak-tested it with carb cleaner, nothing from the piston, but a little bit seeped out from the stem. The diaphragm seems fine from giving it a suck (I don't have a vacuum pump so I can't test it properly). Put a new gasket and some gasket maker, back it went and plugged the sensor and the vac line. Started it for a second but idle was still quite rough. I'll check tomorrow how the car reacts to unplugging and plugging the egr valve and corresponding vac line. Gonna ring a few friends if they might have a vacuum pump to lend.
    I'll also check leaks with the starting fluid as knucklehead0202 mentioned.


    @clutch47 In Finland gasoline is rated in RON, we got E95 and E98 "premium", which roughly correlate to 90/91 and 93 octane in the US. To my understanding, fuel quality is excellent here. And oh boy you yankees are gonna love the pricing! Currently, a liter of E95 is €1.45-1.55 and E98 is €1.60-1.70 per liter. That's $6.38 and $7.00 per US gallon, by the current exchange rate. And the closer you get to the metropolitan area, the more expensive it gets.
    Roughly a third of Finlands passenger cars are diesel powered, and currently diesel is about €0.20-0.25 cheaper per liter. Though there's an extra fuel tax for diesel cars which makes diesel only worth if you drive over 25k KM in a year. As my MGM is gas-engined my yearly tax is only 365€, compared to my previous car's ('03 Audi A4 2.5TDI) 816€. And I won't even get started on insurance...

  7. #7
    The Brown Blob 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum. I hope you can get things sorted out and enjoy your car even more.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

  8. #8
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Update:
    Idle does not change whether the egr valve vac line is on or off, plugging the line with my finger doesnt change anything either.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    (egr valve missing in image)
    The thicker of the circled lines tees off almost immediately and one line goes to the egr valve and other to the MAP sensor (I googled the part no, because I had no idea...)

    Sooooo.... Gonna replace some vac lines and maybe a T-fitting?

  9. #9
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Looks like you may need to clean out said EGR valve. That's a a lot of carbon build up on those ports. If the vacuum lines are cracky or really soft and squishy, then replace them. If they are firm and have no cracks, they should be fine. The EGR valve may be stuck open too. This is where having a vacuum pump (hand held is good enough) to pull a vacuum on it to make sure it's working at all would be a good thing.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
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  10. #10
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    The EGR vac line doesnt actually go to the intake as I mentioned previously, it goes to the egr solenoid mounted on the valve cover.
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    This line shown here goes to the egr.

    The vacuum lines going to the egr seem fine, the egr actually gets vacuum, but the egr diaphragm moves only a little and only when revved.
    I'm going to go buy a vacuum pump possibly today. I was just wondering can I hook it up to the intake side of the solenoid-to-intake -vacuum line? Can I just unhook a vac line off the intake and check it for leaks with a vac pump?
    Also from my chilton manual I read that the EGR has to hold 19 In of Hg. for 5 minutes


    An idiot only in hindsight...

  11. #11
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Quick update: I got a vacuum pump, I quickly tested just the egr valve, it leaks. Doesn't hold pressure. Nada.

    Could that be the issue I've had all along? From what I've read there's not really any vacuum from the egr solenoid at idle, so would the vacuum leak affect idle then?

  12. #12
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    As long as the valve isn’t hanging open, I don’t think it would affect idle.

    Something to do while the EGR is off for replacement, run a wire down the passage ways and start the car. It will blow out a bunch of carbon and help the new valve from getting stopped up with crud

    We’ll continue to troubleshoot if problems still persist after valve replacement.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

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  13. #13
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    If the valve is leaking THROUGH and not just down... it could cause a problem. I'm not totally sure on how they are made so I can't say whether that's possible or not, but yeah, if the valve is hanging open and not seated properly, it'll cause no end of problems.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  14. #14
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Common CFI problems, in no special order

    EGR valve sticking open from carbon
    EGR spacer being packed up with carbon, this is only on iron intake cars. The aluminum intake ones have the EGR boss cast into the intake, the iron ones have a plate between the CFI unit and the manifold that can be removed and cleaned. AL intakes you just have to chip it loose.
    vacuum leaks
    loose timing chains, this is a big one, they have plastic cam gears and when the chain jumps the valves bend.
    bad plugs, wires, cap, rotor
    ignition pickup in the distributor
    gummy linkages on the side of the CFI unit that cause the high idle to stick or not engage


    there are probably a bunch of other things that I'm forgetting, but other than the timing chain its mostly just old car stuff. The chain you can test by removing the distributor cap and using a breaker bar to rotate the engine back and forth manually. If the crank rotates any significant amount before the rotor turns, the chain is suspect. When the chain gets loose, the timing is unstable and you get bad running problems. You can also sometimes see this with a timing light, the mark will seem to jump around when checking the timing.


    The valves on these are pretty simple. Its got a port in and a port out, and the port out has a tapered metal plug in it. When vacuum is applied, that plug pulls back and lets gas flow through. When carbon gets stuck between the pin and the seat, the valve never fully shuts and exhaust gas flows all the time. The vacuum side of it is just a diaphragm. It can leak or not and it won't affect whether or not the exhaust gas side of it works properly.

    also, the position sensor is under vacuum on these. If the O-ring leaks, the sensor is damaged, or if its not installed correctly the valve will not hold vacuum. Honestly at this point a new valve and sensor wouldn't be an awful idea. That way you know the parts are all good. Just make sure the holes down in the intake aren't packed up with carbon.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
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    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

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  15. #15
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    To recap a little:
    Plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor changed.
    EGR leak tested with carb cleaner, exhaust side does not leak and seats well, though it seeps a bit through the stem. Diaphragm side does not hold vacuum at all, ill have to check the sensor o-ring.
    Intake warm air flap diaphragm is toast, plugged the line with a bolt.

    Currently the vacuum line to the egr valve is plugged with a bolt. I'll check the egr sensor o-ring when I have the time. Looking to buy a new egr valve and sensor.

    It's just that next friday i'm going to roadtrip to Pieksämäki Big Wheels and back (800km), and I'd like to temporarily remedy the stalling issue as much as possible. As I'm not sure if I can get a new egr valve before that.

  16. #16
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Check the timing if you haven't. If that is wrong, it won't idle correctly. 10 BTDC with the SPOUT connector unplugged.

    http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00166.html

    The idle speed can be adjusted if its too low. The throttle kicker on the side of the CFI unit has a screw at the bottom of it which will move the whole unit. Thats the low speed idle adjust.

    https://workshop-manuals.com/ford/mu...nts/curb_idle/

    Might be worth testing the throttle position sensor too. Thats on the passenger side, sort of buried with the high idle linkage parts. Probe from the black to the green wire and verify you get about 1v with the throttle closed. It should be between 0.85 and 1.15 volts if I remember right. It should smoothly increase to about 4.5 volts with the throttle full open. If it has dead spots or doesn't respond, the sensor is bad.

    Have you checked this for codes? That might also point you in the right direction.

    http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinjection/page13.html

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  17. #17
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Well...
    Had a little grocery run around town with the egr plugged off. When hot and coming to a stop, it didn't feel like it was going to stall and idled normally (the BEST it's ever done) when finally stopped ...for about 5 seconds, until it started to get rougher again. The jerkiness when maintaining speed wasn't as harsh, or maybe just a placebo.

    Now, this evening, I took off the egr position sensor (or whichever is on the egr valve) and the o-ring was all sorts of effed up. New o-ring, throw it together and BAM, holds vacuum just fine, the piston seats fine, (still) doesn't leak and doesn't hang anywhere on its travel.
    Double-checked the vacuum in section all the way back to the intake, at the solenoid (or surrounding connections), there's a very small leak, maybe 1 InHg per 5 seconds.
    Idle is still pretty much just as rough, granted I didn't have time to get it warmed up. I'll go run around town tomorrow and have it up to operating temp.

  18. #18
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Put a timing light on it and see if it holds stable. One of the symptoms of the sloppy chain is surging when running.

    also, if you haven't yet, inspect the vacuum line to the MAP sensor. That lives on the passenger side fender, a flat box about the size of a deck of cards. That sensor determines engine load by vacuum and when it senses low vacuum you get extra fuel. Too much of a leak and it runs poorly.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  19. #19
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    Welcome! Do you ever listen to Children Of Bodom? They are from Finland.
    '79 Continental Town Car
    '90 Crown Victoria LTD
    '94 Crown Victoria

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    GMN Regular slack's Avatar
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    Welcome!

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