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Thread: Happy to join this community! Mostly looking for help though...

  1. #41
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    ECM rarely goes bad, but the resistor could. Its definitely the cheapest thing it could be. If thats fine, then you're into checking the wiring harness from whatever ECM pin back to the coil. I don't have a wiring diagram in front of me, but its in the EVTM.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  2. #42
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Surprisingly had some spare time and installed the new tps and egr position sensor.
    No real change, curb idle in park/neutral possibly a bit better.

    Need to check that IDM and SPOUT wiring and connectors. Advice appreciated...

  3. #43
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    This diagram will may help in understanding that system.


    With SPOUT connector in, TFI disconnected, ECM disconnected, and Coil Disconnected you should measure close to:
    0 ohms - TFI connector pin 1 to ECM pin 56
    0 ohms - TFI connector pin 2 to ECM pin 36
    0 ohms - TFI connector pin 3 to (?) drawing a blank on this one, but if it starts this is not your problem.
    0 ohms - TFI connector pin 4 to coil connector Positive side
    0 ohms - TFI connector pin 4 to Ignition Relay (the fender mounted solenoid if I'm not mistaken, opposite post that the battery + cable connects to)
    22K ohms - TFI connector Pin 5 to ECM connector Pin 4
    0 ohms - TFI connector Pin 5 to Coil connector Negative side
    22K ohms - Coil connector Negative side to ECM connector Pin 4
    0 ohms - TFI pin 6 to ECM pin 16

    Also, the SPOUT connector should measure close to 0 ohms.

    This will help for EEC/ECM pin identification:

    EEC pinout chart if interested: http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinje...0Lpinouts.html
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  4. #44
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    TFI connector pin 4 to Ignition Relay - wasn't 0 ohms, showed around 8k to 10k (on 200k)
    The relay-end shown had an insulated 90 degree plug-wire style connector which broke
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Other resistance values were fine.

    Otherwise, the TFI connector just looks crappy, wires 1 & 2 from the TFI are wrapped in this chrome tape and some wire... Factory or not?
    The SPOUT wire is missing a lot of it's insulation (I'll fix at some point) and the TFI connector and pretty much every other connector in this car has absurd amounts of this dielectric grease or whatever.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also the choke pull-off doesn't react to vacuum at all and leaks, so I got to plug that off for a small vacuum leak less.

  5. #45
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    Based on the diagram it should just be wire between TFI pin 4 and the ignition relay, so 8k-10k ohms seems way too high.
    If the same point on the ignition relay to the + side of the coil was closer to 0 then the issue would seem to be between the fork (wherever that is in the loom) and the TFI connector, quite possibly that TFI connector connector from the looks of it.

    I've broken that 90 degree connector with boot on one of mine. A ring terminal and nut, or harvest one from thy JY and solder it to existing wire will get you going.

    The chrome tape stuff you see is the shielding. It should be grounded at one end, usually on the driver side fender. If you measure resistance of that, it will be the shielding to ground and should be close to 0. The shielding is supposed to protect those wires from interference that could induce unwanted signaling to the TFI/ECU.

    I'm not familiar with CFI cars, but the missing insulation does not seem right to me, although I think I have seen that before. Also, a question for someone who might know, it looks like there is an actual connector for spout instead of a jumper like I'm used to seeing on SEFI cars. Is that stock for CFI?


    Kisky, are these symptoms similar to what you dealt with our your CFI car(s)?
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  6. #46
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    More on this 3-headed wire (coil positive/TFI pin 4/IGN relay) :
    Click image for larger version. 

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    In short; I get 10.4(k?) ohms (200k setting) from TFI pin 4 to IGN relay wire (in pic above),
    I also get the same 10.4 ohms from the coil positive side to the IGN relay wire, but not from TFI pin 4 to the coil +

    Here's the real kicker:
    When I removed every battery side connection from the IGN relay, stopped getting the 10.4 ohms from said wire (infinite resistance), but I get the 10.4 from this eyelet connector (2 black wire) Click image for larger version. 

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    Ground issue somewhere?
    Last edited by Arquemann; 08-14-2019 at 07:37 AM.

  7. #47
    Approaching 2 decades of DDing Box Panthers VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    I'll admit I don't know how this is physically setup, like which wire is what and locations and such. These two edited diagrams though, are technically the same circuit:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    However, I think the first one (and original, unedited version) more accurately depict the physical layout of the wires and not the two wire solution in the second edited pic. I could be wrong though.

    Assuming the original and first edit are correct, it initially sounds like the issue is between the IGN relay and before the split that goes to TFI-4 and COIL+.
    However, after removing everything from the relay you said you don't get the high resistance reading (IGN relay to TFI-4 or to COIL+). Once everything is removed from the relay the circuit is isolated, so you're truly measuring just the wires (and it looks like a fusible link as well) at that point, which I would assume to be the most accurate measurement. That then would lead to no problem found if I understand correctly, which doesn't seem right since you are experiencing running problems.

    I'm not at all sure what the 2-wire black eyelet goes to. You get the high resistance reading from that (disconnected from the relay) to TFI-4 and to COIL+?
    Vic

    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - My rotting winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic


  8. #48
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    This stuff is really going over my head at this point..
    How would this wiring to the ignition/starter relay affect the running in any way?

    I'd have to strip a lot of the wiring looms to figure out the fork in the wire. I can't figure out why the connection would disappear when the relay is disconnected, I'd have to go through all the wiring looms tofigure out where everything goes. According to the diagram, that wire ought to be the one from the TFI. Why the connection disappears just baffles me, unless it isnt the correct wire...
    I'd like to get a separate wire from the coil+ to the relay and check for a difference, but now that I'm unsure if it's the correct one, I'm scared to jump it like that.

  9. #49
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Jumping that wire definitely didn't help, putting the wire from the relay to coil+ got my dash lights on as if I had the key in the run position, even though it was in my pocket.
    Fired up just fine though and lights went off as usual, no change in idle when I took the wire away.

    Yah, that's what I thought, the ignition relay shouldn't have anything to do how the car idles or maintaining speed.

  10. #50
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    The ECA relay is power for all the engine stuff - sensors and relays. Check the wires themselves. I had an issue with my 93 where the ECT would provide a bad signal because the wire next to the connector was bad. Replaced that connector (pigtail) and things started working fine. Check the ECT, ACT, TFI, MAP, and throttle position sensors. If the wires going to them look excessively bent in any spot or kinked, it may have an issue in that location. Considering the age of the wiring, you may also be dealing with insulation cracks and have to replace entire runs of wire. If areas have been rained on (like the large loom running along the driver fender) and have bad insulation on the wires, it could lead to bad/low signals.

    That said, before all of that, I would verify the IAC isn't sticking, even if it is new, and the plugs and wires are good and properly seated. I've also had the plug wires pop off a couple of plugs after changing them and getting a heat cycle into them. Put them back on completely while the engine is warmed up and they never popped off again.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  11. #51
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    The missing insulation is not correct, but not uncommon. Not sure what Ford was doing with their insulation in the 80s but some of it just goes away with heat or oil or both. A bunch of wires under the hood of my 84 and my 86 were this way. If the wire is mostly good and only a few inches of insulation is gone, heat shrink tubing works to fix it. The pins will come out of the connectors if you remove the red plastic locking piece and carefully lift the lock tabs.


    If you have voltage difference between the pins, the ohm meter won't read correctly. You probably need to unhook the battery to make sure nothing is going on. It would also be worth unplugging the coil to do resistance checks from the coil connector to the TFI, and from the coil connector to the ignition relay to verify low resistance. Use the 200 ohm scale, it should not be higher resistance than 200 will read.

    CFI cars don't have an IAC exactly. Its got that vacuum operated throttle kicker thing but thats basically for AC use. High idle is mechanical in nature.

    Jumping +12v to the ignition coil will bypass the ignition relay and provide power to most of the key-on circuits. If the engine is already running, the jumper won't affect anything unless there is a problem that causes low voltage to any of those circuits.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  12. #52
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Right... I keep forgetting this is a CFI car.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  13. #53
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    If you have voltage difference between the pins, the ohm meter won't read correctly. You probably need to unhook the battery to make sure nothing is going on. It would also be worth unplugging the coil to do resistance checks from the coil connector to the TFI, and from the coil connector to the ignition relay to verify low resistance. Use the 200 ohm scale, it should not be higher resistance than 200 will read.
    I've had the battery disconnected all the time, when doing these resistance tests, I've had the ECM, TFI and coil disconnected as well.

    As per post #46, I get resistance from TFI to relay and from coil+ to relay, but not from TFI to coil+

    Also I can't really dismantle the TFI connector for new insulation, since it seems the connector insulation rubber is cast around the wires.

  14. #54
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    At least the TFI connector is one that can be purchased and spliced in.
    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...onnector,10623
    Might check for local availability of the Airtex/Wells or Standard Motor connectors. The Dorman part doesn't look to be very durable or even sealed at all.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  15. #55
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    I got the whole thing back together now, reconnected the battery, drove around the get the temps up, out come the codes: nothing
    11-11 systems pass. Note that I can't get the KOER codes since I don't have a code scanner and can't figure out how to get those with a test light. But it has come to my knowledge that friend's dad's friend supposedly has the correct code reader and has fiddled a bit with CFI and SEFI.

    Quote Originally Posted by sly View Post
    check for local availability of the Airtex/Wells or Standard Motor connectors.
    I don't know if you've caught the fact that I'm from Finland, but solid advice still

  16. #56
    GMN Regular slack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arquemann View Post

    I don't know if you've caught the fact that I'm from Finland, but solid advice still
    Just for the heck of it, I picked a random place in Helsinki to see what shipping would be. Not too terrible but it takes forever to get there:

  17. #57
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Yeah the parts I ordered a while ago took exactly a week to get w/ FedEx.
    Then there's the 24% VAT for everything over 22€ and for over 150€, an additional duty fee depending what kind of things you've ordered, e.g. engine parts have 2.7% fee.

    For my next move with this turd of a car, I'm going to check the fuel filter (since the car has sat alot) and somehow check the fuel pressure. Filter is easy, all I need to figure out is where the hell my jackstands are and when do I have the time.
    For the fuel pressure, is there a handy place to put a gauge? The schrader valve on top of the fuel injection unit caught my eye.

  18. #58
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arquemann View Post
    I don't know if you've caught the fact that I'm from Finland, but solid advice still
    Exactly WHY I said that. Using the desktop browser, I can see location listed under your icon. I know Yank tanks are hard to get parts for outside of North America.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  19. #59
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Got my fuel filter today, installed it and off to a cruise night (or whaterever term you would prefer for a parking lot meet).
    Still as jerky at low throttle and when decelerating. Had the egr plugged off as well, no real change with that either.

    How can I check fuel pressure the easiest?

  20. #60
    The Brown Blob 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    I know the SEFI cars you can check FP at the fuel rail at the schrader valve. Cannot say about the CFI cars. Good luck.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

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