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Thread: LoPo 302, CFI, carb and emissions

  1. #1
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Default LoPo 302, CFI, carb and emissions

    So in my quest for a functioning engine setup, I need to know about emissions.

    Here's the thing: the CFI setup as is probably won't pass emissions, since the idle is apparently rich (said by mechanic last summer, I cannot prove this).
    Also I would like to throw this CFI in the garbage, since it (still) doesn't work. I'll get to fixing the CFI/throwing it as soon as I get my car from storage, most likely in April.
    In every case, I'll be keeping the catalysators, if I go carb, EGR and Thermactor will go too. As is, the EGR is broken and the air pump system seemingly works correctly.

    In Finland, the max. emissions values for this year of car ('79-'86) are 4,5% CO and 1000 ppm HC, at idle
    There's some fuckery about the air pumps and all that crap, I'll have to talk to an inspector (I'll find an old guy, not one of those officious fngs) and thoroughly go through what is okay and what my machine can do.


    So, my question is: Have any of you have your LoPos emissions checked with carbs or with de-smogged CFI/SEFI?
    If you have numbers to tell, all the better.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

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    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    De-smogged the 88 SEFI I used to have and it didn't make any difference at test. This is because on test day, I drive the long way to the inspection station and this gives the cats time to warm up. I no longer have the numbers to tell as I sold the car and gave all the paperwork to the buyer. But with good cats, your numbers should be well below limits.

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    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    exactly, warm it up well, the cat will be fine. EGR handles NOx, but it only operates above idle. If your emissions check is idle speed, it won't make any difference present vs not. Which is good, because its controlled by the computer. If you remove the CFI, there won't be anything to control it.


    If all you need is idle emissions test, there is no reason a 2bbl carb and a Duraspark distributor can't pass as long as its tuned somewhere near to right and the converters aren't toast.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

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    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    So EGR is a non-issue at idle, good.
    Currently, the EGR is truly broken. The vacuum used to go apeshit with throttle, but after the shop visit, the EGR solenoids don't get vacuum at all, something is off in the CFI unit I believe.

    My dilemma is that if I fix the main misfire issue with the CFI, get the mixtures sorted, then I should get the choke fixed, probably delete the EGR anyways, make some sense of the Thermactor stuff. Then the motor is "sorted", but I'm still stuck with CFI and it's wondrous features.

    Or I throw the CFI, EGR, Thermactor and all the related solenoids and wiring stuff, and replace it with a carb and distributor. You'd recommend a 2bbl and Duraspark? 2bbl carb for sure but I don't know about the Duraspark system, I have little experience with ignition systems beyond points, mechanical advance and a coil. Also Duraspark stuff might be hard to get in Finland, and I wouldn't necessarily want to have order everything vital from across the big pond.

    I doubt the carb would cause much hassle with emissions, lean it out for the inspection if necessary lol. Probably can adjust it real well if I were to get a cheap o2 gauge and sensor to put in the original manifold hole. I've also read about the niceness of a return fuel system with a carb.

    Please do educate me and give your thought-out opinions on anything.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
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  5. #5
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    The 2bbl will bolt to the stock intake. The engine just doesn't need more than a 2bbl can feed it anyway unless you start upgrading parts so I don't really see the point in replacing the intake.

    Duraspark is Ford's electronic ignition for non-EFI stuff. Its not flashy but it works and isn't too hard to deal with. You can use a GM HEI style, I just happen to think its an ugly distributor. Functionally its a good system but putting a big ugly Chevy part right smack in the middle of the engine is a bit heretical to me. They are pretty available in one that will fit a 302 though. You can do points, I just wouldn't for a car that doesn't get driven all the time. The points get fuzzy and funky when they sit for a good while. A conversion thing that subs the points for an electronic unit sitting in the breaker point location is an option though. I've done that before and it works fine.

    Fuel system you can either remove the in-tank pump, make a pickup tube to replace it, and use an external low pressure pump or use a return style regulator setup. basically you'd connect the feed and return lines to the regulator, and output from the reg goes to the carb at ~5 psi or so. Its a better system than a dead-head regulator, and much easier on the fuel pump besides. Mechanical fuel pump also can be done, but needs the pickup mod and the proper timing cover, along with a fuel pump eccentric added to the front of the cam. Personally I'd skip that unless you're due for a timing chain replacement anyway. If you do the electric fuel pump, you'll need to wire it up for key-on power of course.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

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    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Hmm...
    Would've though there was a better selection of 2bbl carbs in Finnish stores.
    I want an electric choke and something not totally obscure*.
    Only really one shop sells 2bbl carbs, even then, only a few reasonable choices. Couple "Rally" brand ones, some superduper expensive Holleys, some Rochester copy and the one that seemed somewhat reasonable: Holley Street Avenger 500 cfm.
    I have no idea about what is good and what is bad, atleast I understand the basics of cabs, not black magic to me.
    4bbl's look way cooler tho...

    *A friend of mine spent 3 weeks in France and parts of Belgium tracking down a float for the original carb in his 1927 Renault.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
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    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    I want to say its the 1982 Tbird that has the right carb. Motorcraft 2150, but it has the linkage for an AOD trans on the side. The 2150 was on everything for 15 years, so its easy to get parts for.


    4bbl looks cooler, but you still have to connect the transmission to it. Also need to change the intake.

    an option in the other direction, convert it to proper fuel injection, but where you are that probably doesn't make sense. The 86-91 stuff can be transplanted on, but you'd probably have to import the wiring harness and such so I doubt it would make sense $$-wise.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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    Yup, no parts cars available here, anymore. I'm 15 years too late, everything there was either rusted away or was beat to shit and scrapped.
    Last summer I saw 2 colony parks on a junkyard website. Nothing anymore.
    If I were to pull the trigger on getting an sefi setup, everything excluding the intake would probably need to be imported. Not worthwhile I'd say.

    RockAuto would be a good source for a carb, eh? I should still ask if any Finnish stores may have a 2150 somewhere in the back. Linkage would be interesting to find here.
    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...arburetor,5904
    That nub looks like something an AOD could attach to or is it just excited. Though it's an image on the interballs, to be taken with a healthy dose pf prejudice.

    Should I get the carb from RA, I should get the Duraspark stuff from there too, if I can get the harnesses aswell.

    EDIT: There's also this I found:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-1978-1...sAAOxycERRktR2
    Last edited by Arquemann; 01-29-2020 at 01:44 AM.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
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    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    The first link is okay if you get one spec’d For the AOD. The 255 carb is probably not quite right on the 302. But it would be close enough more than likely. The second link is the C4/C6/FMX linkage - not what you are looking for.

    The 80-81 T-Birds with a 302/AOD as well as 81?-84 F100/F150/Bronco with 302/AOD are your good US sources. Neither are vey common. Didn’t make a lot of those T-Birds and 98% got crushed 30 years ago. And the trucks - very few ordered the AOD at first. Canada got Panthers with carb’d AOD cars for a long time - through 85? A Canadian member might be able to locate you one.

    I’d have a hard time paying ~$200 for one of those reman 2150’s. I think all the guts of them get mixed up in the remans facility anyway. eBay probably has some used ones but be sure it’s got the right linkage.
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    Crazy idea but could you use an aftermarket injection system like FItech or something like that? Then all you need is an intake manifold and job done. Hell you could even retain EGR if you really wanted to make it hard on yourself. Just a thought but it would likely be easier than try to source all the shit for an SEFI swap or the ballache of finding the exact right carb and ignition fuckery. Or i could just be crazy

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    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Yeah, I hastily searched the '82 Tbird carb from RA, the site doesn't show a 302 choice for '82, but does for '80 and '81, like Tiggie said.
    Here's the correct lineup of RA's 2150s for an '80:
    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...arburetor,5904
    Soooo, the C8108A? "w/Overdrive"

    Also seeing these remans cost ~250 plus shipping and VAT 24% and Duty 2,7%. Still enticing since the new Holley 500cfm I mentioned costs 492.
    https://www.uspartsperformance.fi/ho...80500-kaasutin
    Holley does sell an AOD bracket on their website, probably can order one via the Finnish store.
    The cheapest 2 bbls in webstores in Finland are some random carter copies at about 300.
    If someone is willing to sell their correctly outfitted 2150 or other fitting carb and get them across the big pond I'll certainly pay.


    @knucklehead0202
    Yes, I considered those multiple times. Either a system with only the injection unit, needs dizzy, fuel pump, regulator, throttle and AOD linkages and possibly an intake. ~1000 plus mentioned stuff
    Or a full set like Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4, still requires linkages, a fuel pump and reg. The kit itself is 2000.

    Hell yeah I'd go this route if I had the money to do it. But I don't and I won't. And I don't think it is worthwhile at all with a stock LoPo.
    In comparion, getting a AOD and 302 specific carb, a Duraspark system (for example) and only a fp regulator since the stock pump is enough. That ought to be way cheaper.
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    Even here in Canada finding box body parts has become pretty much a needle in a haystack. My usual yard still has the same panthers that I stripped clean of good stuff years ago, they just get more and more bare everytime I swing past. When scrap metal prices where high it virtually cleaned out every yard of the good old heavy cars and trucks.

    If you do a carb, and it is only an idle test (or a dyno) turn your idle speed (in gear idle rpm) as high as you can to stay within the test limits. Higher rpm = lower overall emmisions numbers. For me and my truck (350 cid, 4bbl, performance cam) when I had to get its one and only test I cranked the idle rpm to 1100rpm in gear, passed test with no problem, yes it will be a bitch to drive but its an etest not a drivability test. After your test and you are out of sight of the test station, turn it back down to official rpm limits. Might seem counterintuitive that adding throttle & fuel will burn cleaner, but higher rpm = better combustion so it helps.
    If at all possible find an independant shop that has basic hand held exhuast analyzer, then you can play around to pass the test (never mind how badly it might drive, pretty common on this side with carb'd vehicles to tune to pass the test, then retune afterward for driveability).

    Alex.

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    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    should be able to use the oxygen sensor to do basic tuning for emissions testing. If you can get it where its bouncing back and forth from rich to lean, its about as good as its gonna be. Don't need an AFR, a simple voltmeter connected to it will serve.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    should be able to use the oxygen sensor to do basic tuning for emissions testing. If you can get it where its bouncing back and forth from rich to lean, its about as good as its gonna be. Don't need an AFR, a simple voltmeter connected to it will serve.
    This is how I tuned the 85 pontiac parisienne that had that quadrajet on a chevy 305. Bit of a trial of patience due to the tedium of it all, but yeah... worked well.

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    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
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    I shall not pass this way again. Smokestacklightnin's Avatar
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    I used an edelbrock performer 289 intake and 4bbl carb with vacuum secondaries on an HO motor. should work on a lopo. Kept same fuel system but used fuel pressure regulators to lower the pressure for a carb.

    2011 Grand Marquis LS Ultimate Edition
    Dual Exhaust w/ AP XLerator mufflers and 3 1/2" tips, Eibach 1" rear sway bar, Pioneer Head unit and speakers, 17X8 Drag DR-72 wheels

    RIP 1984 2Dr Crown Vic "The Millennium Falcon"
    Carbed 5.0 HO w/nitrous , Performer RPM intake, GT40P heads, E303 cam, FRP Shorties, FRP 9mm plug wires, Off-Road H-pipe, Magnaflow round mufflers, 2000 rpm stall
    NA-15.78@91.21, 80hp shot-14.48@96.21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokestacklightnin View Post
    That is quite interesting, especially in cost. Also if something is available in stores in Finland, it's GM HEI modules. Supposedly this is more reliable and maybe even better otherwise?
    Probably not a bad idea. No ugly HEI distributor, a blue cap, almost any coil of choice, no ballast stuff and HEI modules aren't as "consumable" as Duraspark modules? Sounds good.
    Does recurving still work as with a purely DS setup?

    My choices are open still, but I'm reeeally leaning towards carb, compared to fixing the CFI.
    The motorcraft 2150 is probably a given (if/when I go carb) at this point, well supported, rather inexpensive and can be gotten with the correct linkages already.
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    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    I ebay’d my heart out for you a carb last night and didn’t find any affordable ones that were correct... I’ll Let you know if I find one. EBay is like a treasure hunt for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggie View Post
    I ebay’d my heart out for you a carb last night and didn’t find any affordable ones that were correct... I’ll Let you know if I find one. EBay is like a treasure hunt for me.
    How nice of you, certainly appreciated. My problem with ebay is that I can't use it well and very often a little thing called "this item does not ship to Finland"

    I'm curious, how much is a 2150 you would consider affordable? Since I can't reliably find one in Finland and compared to the prices in other new carbs, the ~250€ in RockAuto doesn't seem that excessive. Even with shipping and VAT.
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    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arquemann View Post
    How nice of you, certainly appreciated. My problem with ebay is that I can't use it well and very often a little thing called "this item does not ship to Finland"

    I'm curious, how much is a 2150 you would consider affordable? Since I can't reliably find one in Finland and compared to the prices in other new carbs, the ~250€ in RockAuto doesn't seem that excessive. Even with shipping and VAT.
    I’m cheap. $50 max for a good rebuilder. More like $25 lol. I mean it’s a stock 2-bbl carb that people used to throw away by the 100’s in search of that 4-bbl performance. Just gotta find the right one.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

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