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    #31
    Can't do it. The ECM controls that, so if the computer is gone, the smog controls do absolutely nothing.
    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Originally posted by phayzer5
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

    Comment


      #32
      I'm pretty sure on mine the PCV goes to the EGR spacer at an angle. I have an iron intake.
      Getting a regular 2bbl spacer probably isn't that hard and one can be tapped easily for a vacuum port. If the throttle linkage axis are at the same height in both the carb and CFI, running a spacer after removing the EGR spacer will get your TV rod very close to where it used to be, less adjustment necessary. I don't know how intricate the TV adjustment is, but I know that if it's wrong it'll ruin your day.
      A bit higher spacer (vs EGR spacer) probably won't hurt the meagre performance anyways.

      I really want to go carb but also the CFI annoys me so much that I want to find out what little thing causes the misfire issue. I'll be checking the basics again, then I'll start going through the engine harness, bit by bit.
      1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
      1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

      Comment


        #33
        CFI can work. I've driven CFI cars that were as silky smooth as you could possibly want. It does seem somewhat prone to random bouts of running like complete shit for no apparent reason though. Its probably some stupid 35 year old car bad connection issue but its not something you can just go "its this", and thats annoying.
        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

        Originally posted by phayzer5
        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

        Comment


          #34
          I checked mine tonight and the PCV does come from the EGR spacer. Getting the carb with the PCV port in the back as Tiggie mentioned would be the best if you want to eliminate the EGR valve spacer.

          Would it be possible to control the EGR and canister purge by mimicking a pre ECM emissions control setup? If my research is right it looks like some 2150 carbs have a ported vacuum connection under the accelerator pump for this purpose. From what I read it is timed differently from the spark advance ported vacuum source to delay the EGR and canister purge opening slightly. I could probably run the vacuum line through a thermal vacuum switch to keep it from operating when the engine is cold too. My thoughts behind keeping the EGR is so I don't have to recurve a duraspark II distributor since it's made to work with a functioning EGR valve. I'd also like to keep the canister and purge so I don't get the old stinky car that smells like gas on a hot day problem. Maybe I'm just overthinking all of this and asking for trouble. Would it be better to not mess with hooking this stuff up?

          Arquemann...I remember reading your CFI issues thread awhile back but can't remember all the details so hopefully I'm not being redundant. Has your mechanic checked the ECM to make sure it's got good power feeds and grounds? Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to open up the ECM to check for leaky capacitors. At 35 years old I could see them taking a dump and causing all kinds of weird behavior. If I decide to keep my CFI I think I'm going to send my ECM out to have them replaced even if they aren't leaking.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by matth825 View Post
            I checked mine tonight and the PCV does come from the EGR spacer. Getting the carb with the PCV port in the back as Tiggie mentioned would be the best if you want to eliminate the EGR valve spacer.

            Would it be possible to control the EGR and canister purge by mimicking a pre ECM emissions control setup? If my research is right it looks like some 2150 carbs have a ported vacuum connection under the accelerator pump for this purpose. From what I read it is timed differently from the spark advance ported vacuum source to delay the EGR and canister purge opening slightly. I could probably run the vacuum line through a thermal vacuum switch to keep it from operating when the engine is cold too. My thoughts behind keeping the EGR is so I don't have to recurve a duraspark II distributor since it's made to work with a functioning EGR valve. I'd also like to keep the canister and purge so I don't get the old stinky car that smells like gas on a hot day problem. Maybe I'm just overthinking all of this and asking for trouble. Would it be better to not mess with hooking this stuff up?

            Arquemann...I remember reading your CFI issues thread awhile back but can't remember all the details so hopefully I'm not being redundant. Has your mechanic checked the ECM to make sure it's got good power feeds and grounds? Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to open up the ECM to check for leaky capacitors. At 35 years old I could see them taking a dump and causing all kinds of weird behavior. If I decide to keep my CFI I think I'm going to send my ECM out to have them replaced even if they aren't leaking.
            I requested to check the ECM, since I was aware of old caps. A new ECM was put in at the shop. No change then, but I do still have the old one. I should definitely check the ECM's grounds and so on, I'll be requiring assistance on this in the future. I ought to start my wiring inspection with those. I'll most likely be going through every wire, connector and ground.

            On the canister purge: Trying to adapt older OEM setups might prove difficult. Maybe some sort of control for the solenoid, have a relay open the purge solenoid for a set time after receiving a signal, maybe from the starter? So it opens for a while on startup but doesnt stay open.
            I have not considered what I will do about mine. Gas vapours aren't exactly pleasant.

            Saving the EGR is probably a lost cause, marginal effect and certainly a pain to get working with a hodge-podge of mechanical controls. If people block off EGRs on completely stock systems, would it necessarily require recurving? Though recurving does have it's uses anyways with low compression.
            1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
            1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

            Comment


              #36
              I would far sooner re-curve a distributor than jack around with pre-ECM emissions controls. The miles of vacuum lines and thermal valves involved vs possibly having to change springs in a distributor makes that not even a consideration. Probably doesn't even need to be done honestly, and you might get more out of it by adding even more advance.
              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

              Originally posted by phayzer5
              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

              Comment


                #37
                Hopefully you'll find the issue sorting through the wiring, powers and grounds. I've been there and while time consuming to trace down it's always satisfying in the end when you find and fix it.

                I didn't realize that so many people blocked of EGRs on stock engines without much issue. I was thinking that because the EGR lowers the combustion temperature that without it a stock distributor would have too much advance and pinging would result. If I do the carb swap I'll just get one of those block off plates (I'd like to keep the stock EGR spacer due to the PCV port) and deal with any pinging if it ever does happen.

                I did more research and reviewed many vacuum diagrams for the pre-ECM emissions controls and confirmed that port under the accelerator pump indeed is used for triggering emissions devices. We could use this to easily keep our canister purge. I found the following diagram on a mustang site where someone gutted all the emissions controls except for canister purge and EGR (the green circuit in the picture). He claimed everything worked well. Click image for larger version

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                Also, what do you guys think of using this carb: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...40107&jsn=2260
                Rock auto claims it fits a 1983 Thunderbird and LTD Crown Vic. Could this be for Canadian models? I thought Ford used EEC-III CFI in '83.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Yeah I have no idea what I'm looking at there, not that I made any more sense of the same diagram of my own car that was right there in front of me. If you do that, please do a dummy proof version of it lol.
                  I read a bunch about the canister purge stuff and vapor elimination and all that jazz, all I got was more confusion and a slight headache.

                  My CFI hasn't pinged ever, though it has had approx. 21,3 thousand other running problems simultaneously and we've got pretty good gas here.
                  The EGR is well and truly broken.

                  Eh, I would go with a vented gas cap and figure something for the fuel bowl vent if necessary. I've read that the canister purging happens at idle so it might affect emissions readings, which I don't want, since I only need it to pass at idle.
                  1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                  1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Carb in 83 would likely be Canadian, but it should be the correct item for a CFI conversion.
                    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                    Originally posted by phayzer5
                    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                    Comment


                      #40
                      It is definitely a headache inducting diagram and takes quite some staring at! I looked at so many I started getting cross-eyed. I could make a cleaner version that removes all the stuff we don't need which is most of it. If you go with the carb I linked to you won't have to worry about a bowl vent as the Canadian carbs don't vent the bowl to the canister. The only vents are through the air horn into the air cleaner. Glad to hear the lack of EGR doesn't cause pinging.

                      Canister purge actually happens at cruise so it won't effect your idle emissions test. The vacuum signal that triggers the canister purge is ported so if the throttle blades are at the idle position no vacuum will exist. The throttle blades have to be open past the idle position for the vacuum signal to exist. From what I read it's also a good idea to use a vacuum delay valve so that the throttle must remain in the appropriate position for a few seconds before the purge opens. I'll include all that along with a thermal vacuum switch in my drawing.

                      It looks like all of the carbs appropriate for our application use a hot air choke with electric assist. What would be the best way to handle this on a CFI conversion? Is there a way to add a choke stove that isn't too involved or would converting to an electric only choke be the way to go?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Hi, I have been ignoring this thread because I hate carbs.

                        However, my 1983 Grand Marquis is a Canadian-market car, therefore was factory built with a Motorcraft 2150 carb, which it still has today until I eventually get off my ass and swap it to fuel injection...probably CFI, to make people mad.

                        If there are any photo angles that might be helpful, let me know. The car is currently outside (not ideal) and under snow (not ideal), but warmer weather will be here in about a month or two.

                        Current driver: Ranger
                        Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                        | 88 TC | 91 GM
                        Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                        Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                        | Junkyards

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Have you looked at the Holly Sniper system? Or you can't ship to Finland.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            @Rodentkiller
                            I can actually find the Sniper EFI stuff locally, but as I mentioned in a previous post, I won't go that route for a few reasons.
                            First being cost, even the cheapest 2bbl EFI system (FItech or Holley) costs about 1000€. It still requires a distributor, coil, fuel pump & reg and linkages +probably some bits I can't think if right now.
                            That makes the second point, complexity. Plonk on a carb that's made to fit and generic replacement Duraspark stuff, ought to be a wee bit simpler.
                            And the third reason is cost effectiveness, it's a bone stock LoPo with a 100k miles. I don't even know if it's a roller cam.

                            Of course the best way budget-wise is to still fix the CFI, now that it's got so many new parts, it ought to be fine if I get the misfire fixed. EGR can be tossed if I don't fix it, Thermactor is whatever, seemed to be working correctly. The choke actually needs to be fixed.
                            1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
                            1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

                            Comment


                              #44
                              @Kishy
                              That would be awesome thanks! Please wait for warmer weather...I'm not 100% decided on the carb swap so there is no urgency. A picture of the vacuum hose diagram would be great along with the choke stove tubing. I'm wondering where it gets the air for the hot air choke at...the '83 carb doesn't have a port on the air horn for it like most of the other 2150s I've seen pictures of. What's your reason for not liking carbs? Have you had issues with the 2150s that caused it? I go back and forth on what I want to do. I'm sure the CFI gives better drivability and easier starting. I'm just concerned about long term reliability as it continues to age.

                              @Arguemann
                              I reread through your initial CFI problems thread. I forgot that so many parts had been replaced. The new distributor that you had installed...do you remember the brand of it and the brand of the cap/rotor? I remember another thread on there where a member had a new cap and rotor with a fitment issue. The rotor wasn't making good contact with the cap causing intermittent misses. If that all checks out do you know another mechanic that is proficient with an oscilloscope? I wonder if a secondary ignition waveform would offer any clues. Also, when you check for power and ground at the ECM an old headlight bulb to load the circuit works well. I feel your frustration with having done so much and it still not running right. I went through that a few years ago with a motorcycle. Also, when you check for power and ground at the ECM an old headlight bulb to load the circuit works well.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by matth825 View Post
                                @Kishy
                                That would be awesome thanks! Please wait for warmer weather...I'm not 100% decided on the carb swap so there is no urgency. A picture of the vacuum hose diagram would be great along with the choke stove tubing. I'm wondering where it gets the air for the hot air choke at...the '83 carb doesn't have a port on the air horn for it like most of the other 2150s I've seen pictures of. What's your reason for not liking carbs? Have you had issues with the 2150s that caused it? I go back and forth on what I want to do. I'm sure the CFI gives better drivability and easier starting. I'm just concerned about long term reliability as it continues to age.
                                It does have an actual heat source plus electric choke. As I recall, it has one or two metal tubes that come up off the passenger side exhaust manifold. These are present on my car but I think they're broken off somewhere. Either way, the evidence you need to see is there when I can get to it.

                                While I recognize that this point can easily be countered in ways I disagree with: carbs can fail in ways that affect drivability worse, which require more extensive or detailed repair to correct, vs fuel injection. Examples: sunken float, needle valve seat issue, dirt/debris plugging a passage, sensitivity to old gas. From my perspective, it is easier to keep an electronic system happy because its needs are simple, well-defined with established specs, and easy to achieve (good +12V, good ground, in-spec sensors).

                                My '83 drives very well despite the carb having some issues. It is probably gummed up as the car sat for many years (in the ethanol age). But, once up to temp, it idles well and has good power, although throttle tip-in is a little rough, but apparently that's fairly typical of the 2150 even when all is right with it. Definitely a bit rich...gives a big black puff if you mash on the skinny pedal.

                                CFI exists in many forms across various vehicles and it's important to know that 83 (when built with it) has very different brains driving it than 84 and 85 do. I would be retrofitting the 84-85 setup (EEC-IV), not the 83 setup (EEC-III). Honestly the main reason I would do this is simply to not deal with the intake manifold. That car has newer gaskets already and the multiport injection manifold assembly is something I just don't want to bother with.
                                Last edited by kishy; 02-17-2020, 01:24 AM.

                                Current driver: Ranger
                                Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                                | 88 TC | 91 GM
                                Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                                Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                                | Junkyards

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