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Thread: LoPo 302, CFI, carb and emissions

  1. #41
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    Hi, I have been ignoring this thread because I hate carbs.

    However, my 1983 Grand Marquis is a Canadian-market car, therefore was factory built with a Motorcraft 2150 carb, which it still has today until I eventually get off my ass and swap it to fuel injection...probably CFI, to make people mad.

    If there are any photo angles that might be helpful, let me know. The car is currently outside (not ideal) and under snow (not ideal), but warmer weather will be here in about a month or two.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards

  2. #42
    I post a lot...
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    Have you looked at the Holly Sniper system? Or you can't ship to Finland.

  3. #43
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    @Rodentkiller
    I can actually find the Sniper EFI stuff locally, but as I mentioned in a previous post, I won't go that route for a few reasons.
    First being cost, even the cheapest 2bbl EFI system (FItech or Holley) costs about 1000€. It still requires a distributor, coil, fuel pump & reg and linkages +probably some bits I can't think if right now.
    That makes the second point, complexity. Plonk on a carb that's made to fit and generic replacement Duraspark stuff, ought to be a wee bit simpler.
    And the third reason is cost effectiveness, it's a bone stock LoPo with a 100k miles. I don't even know if it's a roller cam.

    Of course the best way budget-wise is to still fix the CFI, now that it's got so many new parts, it ought to be fine if I get the misfire fixed. EGR can be tossed if I don't fix it, Thermactor is whatever, seemed to be working correctly. The choke actually needs to be fixed.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  4. #44

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    @Kishy
    That would be awesome thanks! Please wait for warmer weather...I'm not 100% decided on the carb swap so there is no urgency. A picture of the vacuum hose diagram would be great along with the choke stove tubing. I'm wondering where it gets the air for the hot air choke at...the '83 carb doesn't have a port on the air horn for it like most of the other 2150s I've seen pictures of. What's your reason for not liking carbs? Have you had issues with the 2150s that caused it? I go back and forth on what I want to do. I'm sure the CFI gives better drivability and easier starting. I'm just concerned about long term reliability as it continues to age.

    @Arguemann
    I reread through your initial CFI problems thread. I forgot that so many parts had been replaced. The new distributor that you had installed...do you remember the brand of it and the brand of the cap/rotor? I remember another thread on there where a member had a new cap and rotor with a fitment issue. The rotor wasn't making good contact with the cap causing intermittent misses. If that all checks out do you know another mechanic that is proficient with an oscilloscope? I wonder if a secondary ignition waveform would offer any clues. Also, when you check for power and ground at the ECM an old headlight bulb to load the circuit works well. I feel your frustration with having done so much and it still not running right. I went through that a few years ago with a motorcycle. Also, when you check for power and ground at the ECM an old headlight bulb to load the circuit works well.

  5. #45
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by matth825 View Post
    @Kishy
    That would be awesome thanks! Please wait for warmer weather...I'm not 100% decided on the carb swap so there is no urgency. A picture of the vacuum hose diagram would be great along with the choke stove tubing. I'm wondering where it gets the air for the hot air choke at...the '83 carb doesn't have a port on the air horn for it like most of the other 2150s I've seen pictures of. What's your reason for not liking carbs? Have you had issues with the 2150s that caused it? I go back and forth on what I want to do. I'm sure the CFI gives better drivability and easier starting. I'm just concerned about long term reliability as it continues to age.
    It does have an actual heat source plus electric choke. As I recall, it has one or two metal tubes that come up off the passenger side exhaust manifold. These are present on my car but I think they're broken off somewhere. Either way, the evidence you need to see is there when I can get to it.

    While I recognize that this point can easily be countered in ways I disagree with: carbs can fail in ways that affect drivability worse, which require more extensive or detailed repair to correct, vs fuel injection. Examples: sunken float, needle valve seat issue, dirt/debris plugging a passage, sensitivity to old gas. From my perspective, it is easier to keep an electronic system happy because its needs are simple, well-defined with established specs, and easy to achieve (good +12V, good ground, in-spec sensors).

    My '83 drives very well despite the carb having some issues. It is probably gummed up as the car sat for many years (in the ethanol age). But, once up to temp, it idles well and has good power, although throttle tip-in is a little rough, but apparently that's fairly typical of the 2150 even when all is right with it. Definitely a bit rich...gives a big black puff if you mash on the skinny pedal.

    CFI exists in many forms across various vehicles and it's important to know that 83 (when built with it) has very different brains driving it than 84 and 85 do. I would be retrofitting the 84-85 setup (EEC-IV), not the 83 setup (EEC-III). Honestly the main reason I would do this is simply to not deal with the intake manifold. That car has newer gaskets already and the multiport injection manifold assembly is something I just don't want to bother with.
    Last edited by kishy; 02-17-2020 at 01:24 AM.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by matth825 View Post
    @Arguemann
    I reread through your initial CFI problems thread. I forgot that so many parts had been replaced. The new distributor that you had installed...do you remember the brand of it and the brand of the cap/rotor? I remember another thread on there where a member had a new cap and rotor with a fitment issue. The rotor wasn't making good contact with the cap causing intermittent misses. If that all checks out do you know another mechanic that is proficient with an oscilloscope? I wonder if a secondary ignition waveform would offer any clues. Also, when you check for power and ground at the ECM an old headlight bulb to load the circuit works well. I feel your frustration with having done so much and it still not running right. I went through that a few years ago with a motorcycle.
    It did actually have a slightly wobbly distributor cap on it originally, and the new one I replaced it with was a bit loose too. But I did press on both sides with no change. The old cap had worn evenly on all contacts. I should check unplugging a spark plug wire one at a time to see if it's just one cylinder thats misfiring. Since the rough running is pretty consistent by sound.

    I'm pretty sure the mechanic mentioned preferring OEM parts, I'd hope it's a Standard then, haven't checked though. It isn't listed in the invoice, along quite a few other things.
    I certainly don't know for sure who might have an oscilloscope, but the local "normal" shops won't touch my car. Go figure...

    Also I'm gonna need some more specific instructions on testing the ECM powers & grounds. Gah, I just want my car back already, except it's 3C and raining outside...
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  7. #47

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    Kishy, you make a very good argument for keeping the CFI. I can't argue that it requires less maintenance and has simpler needs. I'm sure it offers better mixture control than a carb too. It definitely makes me reconsider keeping it especially since I don't want to do engine modifications. I'm not interested in going the port injection way either. All of the port injected cars that I've seen in the junkyard the last few years have been completely thrashed. I've heard the EEC-III CFI was a disaster so I'm grateful I've got the EEC-IV version. I just wish ford had given us the ability to access live data from the ECM via a scan tool so we could see what it sees in real time. That's really my biggest gripe with it. After doing some research parts availability isn't as bad as I thought either.

    Arquemann, that's a good idea. If it's a single cylinder that's missing we can focus on that first then go from there. I have all of the factory ford wiring diagrams so I can get you a ECM connector pinout. I'll write out some tips for load testing the circuits with the headlight bulb too. I'll try to get all that done over the weekend for you.

  8. #48
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    Reasons to keep a CFI: it's better than a carb when it works. Mostly in driveability and mileage. CFI is also cheaper if you already have it lol. Though a carb offers tuneability, even power, if going with a 4bbl, ability to adjust for stuff like headers, intake and cam. Also there are only a couple parts that can go bad, which, yes can break leaving you stranded, as is with every other engine. A carb is completely mechanical, so there's not going to be any electrical gremlins there.
    CFI comes with 35 year old wiring, which is fun in any electircal system. That's one of the biggest issues of CFI.

    Quote Originally Posted by matth825 View Post
    I'll try to get all that done over the weekend for you.
    That'd be great. Not that I'll necessarily need them for another 2 months, but I'll be able to study them and continue this thread.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  9. #49

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    I don't have an '85 manual handy, but they show up on various websites (like ebay):

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-1982-1...cAAOSwgs5cbGlE

    These big blue training manuals are great, because they show (in color) the vacuum and wiring diagrams for the engine, with detailed descriptions of each component and how it operates.
    Then it describes idle, cruise, and WOT situations and how the components in the system work together.

    One of my "someday maybe eventually I'll get to it" projects is to get a pile of these from the EEC-III and EEC-IV era together and scan them for the greater good...in the meantime, those and the EVTM manuals are worth their weight in gold.

  10. #50
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    The EVTM is the usual most-useful manual for electrical stuff. if you want more detail you need the wiring harness manual. I have one for an 84 and an 86 but no way to scan the thing. The pages are large fold-outs. I guess I could maybe do it in squares and it could be printed and taped together but its a lot of scanning.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    The EVTM is the usual most-useful manual for electrical stuff. if you want more detail you need the wiring harness manual. I have one for an 84 and an 86 but no way to scan the thing. The pages are large fold-outs. I guess I could maybe do it in squares and it could be printed and taped together but its a lot of scanning.
    I have one for my 87. Way cool following all of those lines around through a couple pages at times.
    ~David~

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    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

  12. #52
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    mine are the manuals for every model car made those years. Found them cheap at Carlisle.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    The EVTM is the usual most-useful manual for electrical stuff. if you want more detail you need the wiring harness manual. I have one for an 84 and an 86 but no way to scan the thing. The pages are large fold-outs. I guess I could maybe do it in squares and it could be printed and taped together but its a lot of scanning.
    My plan for the Engine Control Systems manuals is to set up a jig with a tripod and a couple work lights, and use a reasonably good quality digital camera, rather than a flatbed scanner.

    It should be good enough to read and understand. I don't know if that's true of the wiring diagrams, those are big pages and they STILL have some little writing (but not as bad as trying to read the ones in some of the Motor/Mitchell/Chiltons guides...).

    There's a lot of Ford literature out there, I have mostly Fox/SN95 material covering just a couple years and it fills a lot of shelf space.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    There's a shelf in the house with the dealership stuff and boxes for the larger format manuals like EVTMs.
    Someday I'd like to scan (or find someone with lots of free time to do it!) the more useful and unusual items for all the various Ford forums; if I can find a way to make it easily available without copyright issues or other drama.

  14. #54
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    '86 would be port injection, '84 is CFI but is it EEC-IV? We'll see what goodies matth delivers. Still, everything is appreciated, scanning is terribly time consuming, I've done some similar projects.

    I only have a Chilton Ford Mercury Full Size '68-'88. Only time it's been useful so far was locating the fuel filter and making sense of the quick-disconnects.
    The vacuum routing diagram in the book is smaller than the sticker on the core support, and even more unreadable.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arquemann View Post
    '86 would be port injection, '84 is CFI but is it EEC-IV? We'll see what goodies matth delivers. Still, everything is appreciated, scanning is terribly time consuming, I've done some similar projects.

    I only have a Chilton Ford Mercury Full Size '68-'88. Only time it's been useful so far was locating the fuel filter and making sense of the quick-disconnects.
    The vacuum routing diagram in the book is smaller than the sticker on the core support, and even more unreadable.
    I thought yours was an '85? I'm not sure exactly when they swapped from EEC-III to -IV in the CFI, but I think it was late 83-early 84 depending on the market. Either way I definitely have the EVTMs for the mid-size (Fox platform) cars with the same engine management, although I don't know for sure if I have the Crown Vic/Grand Marq EVTMs.

    When I get home in mid-March, remind me and I'll send off some photos of the pages. I'll look through my ECS books but I'm reasonably sure I don't have any CFI stuff--I might have some 3.8 stuff from the CFI Mustangs and if I do I'll send pictures of those.

    You have to remind me, though: I try to forget everything from work (except the day I go back!) when I get home again. You'll also notice I'm online a lot less when I'm not sitting mid-ocean somewhere...

    Matth: The Ford scan tools for EEC-III and EEC-IV do allow real-time readings, as well as attachments for datalogging (onto a cassette tape!). They're also the size of a small suitcase and require a massive harness that attaches between the ECM and the car's wire harness. Sadly, the diagnostic connector under the hood is not so useful. I do find the KOER and KOEO ("jiggle") tests are a handy troubleshooting aid that many other brands don't offer.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    - I have one for an 84 and an 86 -
    I was referring to this.

    @bgreywolf that reminded me of the KOER stuff, I don't know how to that without a reader or engine light, I've done the KOEO multiple times with a test light though.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  17. #57
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    84 is EEC-IV. I can't guarantee specific differences from 84-85 but its probably not much.

    The wiring diagrams I have are the entire car, headlights to tail lights. Would be truly awesome to find someplace that has a big format scanner available for rent. Failing that I might be able to scan each "fold" so you could print each page out and tape it all together.

    The EVTM will give you sections of the circuit per-circuit, the harness diagrams are most useful if you want to see each and every connector a circuit goes through from point A to point B. I've honestly never needed them, but I found them cheap and I'm a big believer in obtaining possibly useful documentation when its available for not stupid money. I have a library of radio schematics from the 1920s through the early 70s for exactly that reason. It gets gappy after the mid 50s unfortunately, but more than once I have scanned original paper for people when the available online scans are not readable.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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