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Thread: LoPo 302, CFI, carb and emissions

  1. #21
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Oh okay... Makes sense.

    https://www.overdrive.fi/v8-market/p...76685b6b72e2c/
    This looks like a 2150 to me, said to be from some 80's Mustang.
    Does that look like an AOD nub?
    For 70€ and that's like a bit over an hour away from me.

    Also found a couple Autoline 2100s. And one seller that has a many parts from 351Ws. AOD mentioned in ad, so might be from an AOD equipped one.
    Last edited by Arquemann; 02-04-2020 at 10:52 AM.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  2. #22
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    Negative on the AOD linkage on that one. The AOD one rides right behind the throttle lever with a small screw adjustment on the top that touches the throttle lever at all times (when installed). The screw and lever is much smaller than the “normal” automatic lever.

    You can make something that works with your existing rod. Find a spot on the throttle linkage that, when the throttle opens, corresponds to the full travel of the TV rod. Then fab up something to hold the rod there. This guy did it but he was using a cable. http://perichbrothers.blogspot.com/2...paste.html?m=1
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
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  3. #23
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    In a sense the AOD rod is easier to hook up, it only needs to attach to the throttle linkage a certain distance from the axis, to ensure full travel.
    I can't fab anything though, especially something that small and precise.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  4. #24
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Now that I'm sick, I've "got time" to browse this stuff.
    I found this site:
    https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...l#&gid=1&pid=6
    Interestingly it says that fuel injection uses a TV cable, even though most CFI systems I've seen use the rod.
    It clearly states that the correct linkage for a TV rod looks like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Based on that:
    ('80 T-Bird) https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...140017&jsn=474
    ('82 F150/Bronco) https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...121296&jsn=473
    I'm not sure if I can trust the images on RA, can any of you vouch for them?

    So now I atleast can reference something and verify the correct linkage.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  5. #25
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    All three pics correct!
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

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  6. #26
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    yeah thats the rod hookup. The only carb cable rig I know of was the 91, or possibly 90-91 Vic with a 351. That ran a Variable Venturi carb and used a TV cable. Maybe the trucks ran cables though, not sure.

    if they did, I don't see why you couldn't adapt a truck TV cable, but you'd need the cable, the carb it mates to, and probably the stuff down at the transmission to attach the cable. Guessing it will have a bracket and probably a different lever.

    There is the Lokar stuff, but that also involves a bracket and changing the lever, and honestly I find those to be fairly crap quality. Its the common practical option, especially for 4bbl swaps, but I still don't love it.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  7. #27

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    I've been keeping an eye on this thread as my '85 Vic still has the CFI that I'd like to convert at some point. It's still functional but given it's 35 years old it could take a dump at any time. I've been looking at those carbs on rock auto. The part numbers are different depending upon if it's a T-bird or F-150. Different years of the same model also result in different part numbers. Is one carb preferable over another? I looked at the pictures and some of the external connection ports are different. The most noticeable is the fuel bowl vent. Is this the only difference or would the jetting be different from a car to a truck?

  8. #28
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    Jets are easily changed and readily available. Should use the same kind as older Autolite 2100/4100 carbs. Can’t see the bore size on all of them, but the ones I could see were all 1.08 - which is small. Awesome cruise behavior but gives up a little on the top end. The booster assembly is also potentially unique to the application.

    I think the F-150 version has a provision for the PCV hose. The T-Bird must have had that in the carb spacer. Not sure where the PCV goes on a stock CFI, but I would try for the same setup with the carb to minimize expense.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
    Sold: 1982 LTD and 1987 Crown Vic

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  9. #29
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    as anemic as the rest of the engine is, I doubt you'd really notice any performance hit from the 2100 vs the stock CFI.


    I don't remember where the PCV line goes either. The spacer is for EGR, and not all of them had one. Forget which is which, but there is an aluminum intake and an iron intake. One has the EGR on the spacer, the other has it cast into the manifold. For some reason I'm thinking PCV goes to a fitting on the intake, but its been a good while since I really looked at a CFI car.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  10. #30

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    I can't remember where the PCV on mine goes either lol. I haven't looked under the hood in two months or so since the car is put away for the season. I'll go take a look and pick the carb that fits the closest. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll start my own when I get my parts and pieces together since mine will be a little more involved than Arquemann's. I'd like to keep my charcoal canister purge and EGR if possible.

  11. #31
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Can't do it. The ECM controls that, so if the computer is gone, the smog controls do absolutely nothing.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  12. #32
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure on mine the PCV goes to the EGR spacer at an angle. I have an iron intake.
    Getting a regular 2bbl spacer probably isn't that hard and one can be tapped easily for a vacuum port. If the throttle linkage axis are at the same height in both the carb and CFI, running a spacer after removing the EGR spacer will get your TV rod very close to where it used to be, less adjustment necessary. I don't know how intricate the TV adjustment is, but I know that if it's wrong it'll ruin your day.
    A bit higher spacer (vs EGR spacer) probably won't hurt the meagre performance anyways.

    I really want to go carb but also the CFI annoys me so much that I want to find out what little thing causes the misfire issue. I'll be checking the basics again, then I'll start going through the engine harness, bit by bit.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
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  13. #33
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    CFI can work. I've driven CFI cars that were as silky smooth as you could possibly want. It does seem somewhat prone to random bouts of running like complete shit for no apparent reason though. Its probably some stupid 35 year old car bad connection issue but its not something you can just go "its this", and thats annoying.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  14. #34

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    I checked mine tonight and the PCV does come from the EGR spacer. Getting the carb with the PCV port in the back as Tiggie mentioned would be the best if you want to eliminate the EGR valve spacer.

    Would it be possible to control the EGR and canister purge by mimicking a pre ECM emissions control setup? If my research is right it looks like some 2150 carbs have a ported vacuum connection under the accelerator pump for this purpose. From what I read it is timed differently from the spark advance ported vacuum source to delay the EGR and canister purge opening slightly. I could probably run the vacuum line through a thermal vacuum switch to keep it from operating when the engine is cold too. My thoughts behind keeping the EGR is so I don't have to recurve a duraspark II distributor since it's made to work with a functioning EGR valve. I'd also like to keep the canister and purge so I don't get the old stinky car that smells like gas on a hot day problem. Maybe I'm just overthinking all of this and asking for trouble. Would it be better to not mess with hooking this stuff up?

    Arquemann...I remember reading your CFI issues thread awhile back but can't remember all the details so hopefully I'm not being redundant. Has your mechanic checked the ECM to make sure it's got good power feeds and grounds? Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to open up the ECM to check for leaky capacitors. At 35 years old I could see them taking a dump and causing all kinds of weird behavior. If I decide to keep my CFI I think I'm going to send my ECM out to have them replaced even if they aren't leaking.

  15. #35
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matth825 View Post
    I checked mine tonight and the PCV does come from the EGR spacer. Getting the carb with the PCV port in the back as Tiggie mentioned would be the best if you want to eliminate the EGR valve spacer.

    Would it be possible to control the EGR and canister purge by mimicking a pre ECM emissions control setup? If my research is right it looks like some 2150 carbs have a ported vacuum connection under the accelerator pump for this purpose. From what I read it is timed differently from the spark advance ported vacuum source to delay the EGR and canister purge opening slightly. I could probably run the vacuum line through a thermal vacuum switch to keep it from operating when the engine is cold too. My thoughts behind keeping the EGR is so I don't have to recurve a duraspark II distributor since it's made to work with a functioning EGR valve. I'd also like to keep the canister and purge so I don't get the old stinky car that smells like gas on a hot day problem. Maybe I'm just overthinking all of this and asking for trouble. Would it be better to not mess with hooking this stuff up?

    Arquemann...I remember reading your CFI issues thread awhile back but can't remember all the details so hopefully I'm not being redundant. Has your mechanic checked the ECM to make sure it's got good power feeds and grounds? Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to open up the ECM to check for leaky capacitors. At 35 years old I could see them taking a dump and causing all kinds of weird behavior. If I decide to keep my CFI I think I'm going to send my ECM out to have them replaced even if they aren't leaking.
    I requested to check the ECM, since I was aware of old caps. A new ECM was put in at the shop. No change then, but I do still have the old one. I should definitely check the ECM's grounds and so on, I'll be requiring assistance on this in the future. I ought to start my wiring inspection with those. I'll most likely be going through every wire, connector and ground.

    On the canister purge: Trying to adapt older OEM setups might prove difficult. Maybe some sort of control for the solenoid, have a relay open the purge solenoid for a set time after receiving a signal, maybe from the starter? So it opens for a while on startup but doesnt stay open.
    I have not considered what I will do about mine. Gas vapours aren't exactly pleasant.

    Saving the EGR is probably a lost cause, marginal effect and certainly a pain to get working with a hodge-podge of mechanical controls. If people block off EGRs on completely stock systems, would it necessarily require recurving? Though recurving does have it's uses anyways with low compression.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  16. #36
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    I would far sooner re-curve a distributor than jack around with pre-ECM emissions controls. The miles of vacuum lines and thermal valves involved vs possibly having to change springs in a distributor makes that not even a consideration. Probably doesn't even need to be done honestly, and you might get more out of it by adding even more advance.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  17. #37

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    Hopefully you'll find the issue sorting through the wiring, powers and grounds. I've been there and while time consuming to trace down it's always satisfying in the end when you find and fix it.

    I didn't realize that so many people blocked of EGRs on stock engines without much issue. I was thinking that because the EGR lowers the combustion temperature that without it a stock distributor would have too much advance and pinging would result. If I do the carb swap I'll just get one of those block off plates (I'd like to keep the stock EGR spacer due to the PCV port) and deal with any pinging if it ever does happen.

    I did more research and reviewed many vacuum diagrams for the pre-ECM emissions controls and confirmed that port under the accelerator pump indeed is used for triggering emissions devices. We could use this to easily keep our canister purge. I found the following diagram on a mustang site where someone gutted all the emissions controls except for canister purge and EGR (the green circuit in the picture). He claimed everything worked well. Click image for larger version. 

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    Also, what do you guys think of using this carb: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...40107&jsn=2260
    Rock auto claims it fits a 1983 Thunderbird and LTD Crown Vic. Could this be for Canadian models? I thought Ford used EEC-III CFI in '83.

  18. #38
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Yeah I have no idea what I'm looking at there, not that I made any more sense of the same diagram of my own car that was right there in front of me. If you do that, please do a dummy proof version of it lol.
    I read a bunch about the canister purge stuff and vapor elimination and all that jazz, all I got was more confusion and a slight headache.

    My CFI hasn't pinged ever, though it has had approx. 21,3 thousand other running problems simultaneously and we've got pretty good gas here.
    The EGR is well and truly broken.

    Eh, I would go with a vented gas cap and figure something for the fuel bowl vent if necessary. I've read that the canister purging happens at idle so it might affect emissions readings, which I don't want, since I only need it to pass at idle.
    1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
    1997 Volvo 850 GLE Estate

  19. #39
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Carb in 83 would likely be Canadian, but it should be the correct item for a CFI conversion.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  20. #40

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    It is definitely a headache inducting diagram and takes quite some staring at! I looked at so many I started getting cross-eyed. I could make a cleaner version that removes all the stuff we don't need which is most of it. If you go with the carb I linked to you won't have to worry about a bowl vent as the Canadian carbs don't vent the bowl to the canister. The only vents are through the air horn into the air cleaner. Glad to hear the lack of EGR doesn't cause pinging.

    Canister purge actually happens at cruise so it won't effect your idle emissions test. The vacuum signal that triggers the canister purge is ported so if the throttle blades are at the idle position no vacuum will exist. The throttle blades have to be open past the idle position for the vacuum signal to exist. From what I read it's also a good idea to use a vacuum delay valve so that the throttle must remain in the appropriate position for a few seconds before the purge opens. I'll include all that along with a thermal vacuum switch in my drawing.

    It looks like all of the carbs appropriate for our application use a hot air choke with electric assist. What would be the best way to handle this on a CFI conversion? Is there a way to add a choke stove that isn't too involved or would converting to an electric only choke be the way to go?

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