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    #16
    EGR Codes

    Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Hey, I liked my '85 with CFI. Hated it at first, but that was just my ignorance. I miss that car, it met it's maker so shall it rest in piece or something profound like that.
    I actually kind of like it too. It has its quirks but when it works it works well. My reasons for potentially wanting to ditch it are because of long term availability of replacement components. I’m still not ready to make that decision yet however. Breakout box should be arriving today so if I’m not too tired after work I plan on continuing diagnostics.

    What were your main issues with it?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by matth825; 09-02-2020, 09:42 AM.

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      #17
      Black sensor on both of my EEC-IV CFI cars (84 and 85).
      I do not know if codes are set on either currently/recently, but I seem to recall there was at least a time where the 84 had no codes.

      Current driver: Ranger
      Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
      | 88 TC | 91 GM
      Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
      Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
      | Junkyards

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        #18
        Originally posted by kishy View Post
        Black sensor on both of my EEC-IV CFI cars (84 and 85).
        I do not know if codes are set on either currently/recently, but I seem to recall there was at least a time where the 84 had no codes.
        Thanks! I appreciate you checking!


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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          #19
          Originally posted by matth825 View Post
          I actually kind of like it too. It has its quirks but when it works it works well. My reasons for potentially wanting to ditch it are because of long term availability of replacement components. I’m still not ready to make that decision yet however. Breakout box should be arriving today so if I’m not too tired after work I plan on continuing diagnostics.

          What were your main issues with it?
          My car ran really well once I sorted it out. It had quirks too, one being I had to toe in the throttle ever so slightly when hot or else it would crank and crank with no results. I never liked how it didn't seem to compensate for a cold engine fuel mix wise. Ford had a carburetor like 2,100 RPM when cold spec if I remember right. I was able to get that down quite a bit with no weirdness but that required a lot of fiddling with the choke pull-off mechanism and stuff. I was happy with it when by the time I sold it. Never realized the dashpot which adjusted the idle was adjustable sensitivity wise- it always kicked the idle up too much when I ran the A/C. 3.8 CFI cars had an IAC valve, don't know why Ford didn't give us 5.0 crowd one..

          I liked how compared to SEFI cars, everything is accessible with minimal fuss and it looks old school under the hood. Everything that plagued my car initially was EGR, throttle position sensor, choke pull-off, fast idle and vacuum routing related. I don't know how one screws up the vacuum routing as there is a sticker on the fan shroud. Oh, the TV bushing was trashed and was the adjustment. I think my car was pretty rare, was an '85 with the first digit of the vin being a "1". Ain't never seen that since.

          Sold it to a guy who later junked it and in a twist of fate, I stumbled upon it at the yard it wound up in. Met a sad fate towards that end, it had been "ghettoized." Poor car.
          1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
          1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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            #20
            Originally posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
            My car ran really well once I sorted it out. It had quirks too, one being I had to toe in the throttle ever so slightly when hot or else it would crank and crank with no results. I never liked how it didn't seem to compensate for a cold engine fuel mix wise. Ford had a carburetor like 2,100 RPM when cold spec if I remember right. I was able to get that down quite a bit with no weirdness but that required a lot of fiddling with the choke pull-off mechanism and stuff. I was happy with it when by the time I sold it. Never realized the dashpot which adjusted the idle was adjustable sensitivity wise- it always kicked the idle up too much when I ran the A/C.
            Before I had mine sorted, it was always like starting a cold, cranky carbed motor, hot engine was only slightly better. Needed quite a bit of throttle input every single time.
            Nowadays it starts without throttle probably 75% of the time, always fine when hot. Sometimes when cold it just cranks and sputters but doesn't catch on. With throttle it fires up perfect every time.
            My choke and pull-off are sitting in a box in the garage, as I broke the tab on the throttle body unit.

            Also what!? The dashpot is adjustable? How about idle speed overall?
            My main gripes of the engine currently is the RPM stays kinda high all the time. AC compressor off and idling in gear is okay, ac kicks in it's high. Also idle in park is high, for some reason it keeps the RPM high for couple of minutes or so before it lowers to an tolerable speed.
            1985 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, "Maisa"
            1995 Chevrolet Caprice Classic STW, "Sally"

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              #21
              That's why you need the choke pull-off thing working correctly and the fast idle linkage that goes along with it. When working correctly with a cold engine, you stab the throttle, it engages the fast idle mechanism and you twist the key. It'll start and maintain the high idle until the choke pull-off pulls it back down as it warms up. Getting that right is tricky.

              That's what I've heard! I never adjusted mine but Kishy reported that they are adjustable. Idle speed is also adjustable via that same dashpot, there is a bolt which locks it (iirc) and when you undo that there is another you can wrench on to adjust up or down on the idle. Might all be the same bolt, it's been over six years since I've had my hands on one.

              If your base hot idle is fine without A/C but turning on a/c causes it to be high for awhile even after turning it off, look at that dash pot thing. Verify the vacuum line going to it is routed correctly. They can get sticky- so if when the idle is high despite A/C being off, if slamming the throttle open quickly and letting it slam back closed brings the idle back down (You can also try moving the throttle linkage by hand back to idle) then the dashpot is sticky. That would happen with my car as well. I just lubricated things, forget with what.
              1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
              1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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                #22
                EGR Codes

                I didn’t realize the USA made “1” VIN cars were that rare. That’s what mine is. It’s got a St. Louis assembly plant sticker on the windshield. That makes me want to keep it despite it’s corrosion issues. I can just leave it as is and look for a clean rust free one. One can never have too many of these cars. Well, others may think you can but I don’t!

                I’d really like to get mine to where you had yours. After thinking about it a carb swap at this point will be the nuclear option if something catastrophic happens and a replacement part is unobtainium. Once I get this EGR issue sorted I plan on replacing all the vacuum lines along with an ignition tune up. I’ll probably throw a new TFI module on since those are a high failure item.

                I’ll keep you guys updated with what I find this weekend...was too tired last night to work on it.

                That’s a shame it ended up ghettoized. I saw an 86 grand marquis in the yard about a month ago that suffered the same fate...I just shook my head.





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                Last edited by matth825; 09-03-2020, 10:25 AM.

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                  #23
                  The early ones aren't, as I think they were all St. Louis cars up until '85ish. I'm not the guru there. Hell, maybe everything was up until '86. But I wasn't paying attention when I bought mine, wasn't even a member of the forum then and didn't know the terminology. Wasn't something I realized until after I sold it.. Stupid me, but I wanted that Town Car and back then I couldn't afford to have both.

                  Unfortunately, I'm thinking of carb swaps too if parts cannot be obtained. That or aftermarket EFI systems but I don't know anyone that's DD'ing those things in winter or rain.. If your car isn't stalling out or cutting out at high RPM, just have a few TFI's tucked away somewhere like I do. I've had good luck with the ones I've pulled from smashed cars at yards.

                  Yeah, it's rough. Especially when I realized it was MY old car. TO see that all the parts I replaced had been scavenged, both a laugh and a tear right there lol. But the ghettoization and "Black Ice" felony forest made me sad. If the car had feelings, I'm sure it was pissed at me haha.
                  1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                  1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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                    #24
                    EGR Codes

                    I’m on the fence about the aftermarket EFI systems too. I’m leaning more toward a carb because Holley and edelbrock parts are easily obtainable. I would imagine those aftermarket EFI systems use proprietary sensors that cost an arm and a leg.

                    So far the ignition system seems ok. I’m going to leave the TFI alone for now and try to stash away some spare modules like you suggest. One can never have too many spare parts!

                    I finally got to the root of the issue today. Hooked up the breakout box (surprised I didn’t break the ECM connector trying to jam everything in the tiny space they give you) and began testing. Powers and grounds to the ECM were good with negligible voltage drop. Moved on to the EVP voltage...now that I had a good test connection via the BOB I found I was getting 1.2 volts instead of the .9 I measured via backprobing.

                    Using the chart that gadget linked to showing EVP voltage vs position this indicated that the valve was stuck 10% open. Did a KOER test and got the 31 again. Thought that was weird since all the definitions for code 31 I found stated this meant EVP signal below low limit.

                    Well, it turns out this code means something different on CFI cars. I had borrowed an analog signal generator from a friend at work so I injected a .9VDC (normal closed EGR voltage) signal to the EVP position input on the ECM. Did a KOEO and guess what, no codes! Messing with the signal generator I found this code is set when the EVP voltage is below .6VDC or above 1.1VDC when the ECM is commanding 0% EGR. Code 31 would be better described as meaning “EGR closed position incorrect” on CFI cars.

                    I took my EGR valve apart to give it a more thorough cleaning. No matter what I did I could not get the closed voltage below 1.2VDC. I went to file the sensor down some but broke the studs that it mounts to when tightening one bolt. At this point I said fuck it and made an EGR block off plate so I could drive the car today. Didn’t want to put the busted valve back on just to take it off again. After I did that the slight shake I’ve always had at idle that I assumed was just the CFI being CFI went away. This means all along that the sensor was ok and something was really jamming up the EGR keeping it slightly open.

                    The short version of this is if you get a code 31 on a CFI car make sure the EGR is fully closing!

                    I ordered a new EGR valve and plan on removing the spacer plate to give it a cleaning. Is there any way to keep the EGR passages/valves on these cars from gunking up so bad?


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                    Last edited by matth825; 09-05-2020, 04:42 PM.

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                      #25
                      where exactly were you measuring from on the EGR sensor vs the BOB? If it wasn't from sigrtn (ground) to the EVP output wire, that would probably explain it. There can be a few tenths difference from engine ground to ECM ground.
                      86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                      5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                      91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                      1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                      Originally posted by phayzer5
                      I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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                        #26
                        EGR Codes

                        I was measuring the EVP signal output and the sig return at the ECM connector originally...terminals 27 and 46. Maybe I missed something or did something wrong when doing this...I was having a hell of a time as there was no room to backprobe the ECM connector. The BOB made life so much easier. When I used it I plugged my DVOM directly into the pin 27 and 46 banana jacks.


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                        Last edited by matth825; 09-05-2020, 08:09 PM.

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                          #27
                          well thats the voltage the ECM is going to see, so thats what really matters. I should get one of those, it would make life less annoying than using pins and paperclips.
                          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                          Originally posted by phayzer5
                          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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                            #28
                            Great troubleshooting!
                            Referring back to my reply...I said 31 is out of spec, not necessarily low
                            It depends where you get the definition from. Some sources claim it's always low, but that's not always the case.

                            Did you verify the valve was in fact open? Consider the mechanical design of the thing in question here. Maybe something about the clearance of the sensor in the valve is the problem. I forget exactly what it looks like but there's some sort of rubber seal between the sensor and valve assembly...maybe if it gets crushed too much the sensor will become pushed in too far.

                            The valve is prone to collecting carbon, it's just sort of the nature of the beast. There was some discussion sort of recently that there had been a revised version of the EGR spacer which did not plumb into the cooling system, and I believe had mesh in the EGR inlet side to catch big chunks. I don't know that I believe it really helps much, but maybe. If the valve can't get jammed open, at least you won't see an engine running quality issue because of the stuck open EGR, but the passage can still get jammed with carbon (arguably in a harder to clean spot, because now the carbon back-up goes through the intake). 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

                            Current driver: Ranger
                            Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                            | 88 TC | 91 GM
                            Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                            Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                            | Junkyards

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by kishy View Post
                              Great troubleshooting!
                              Referring back to my reply...I said 31 is out of spec, not necessarily low
                              It depends where you get the definition from. Some sources claim it's always low, but that's not always the case.

                              Did you verify the valve was in fact open? Consider the mechanical design of the thing in question here. Maybe something about the clearance of the sensor in the valve is the problem. I forget exactly what it looks like but there's some sort of rubber seal between the sensor and valve assembly...maybe if it gets crushed too much the sensor will become pushed in too far.

                              The valve is prone to collecting carbon, it's just sort of the nature of the beast. There was some discussion sort of recently that there had been a revised version of the EGR spacer which did not plumb into the cooling system, and I believe had mesh in the EGR inlet side to catch big chunks. I don't know that I believe it really helps much, but maybe. If the valve can't get jammed open, at least you won't see an engine running quality issue because of the stuck open EGR, but the passage can still get jammed with carbon (arguably in a harder to clean spot, because now the carbon back-up goes through the intake). 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other.
                              Thanks Kishy! I forgot you mentioned that about code 31 being out of spec. Sorry about that. I should have gone back and re-read your post before I went back to troubleshooting. I had a hell of a week at work and have been running on fumes. You’re the only source that correctly stated what code 31 means. All of the googling resulted in only “circuit low” definitions. Nothing else was mentioned.

                              The valve is definitely stuck slightly open. I filled the valve body up with brake cleaner and it came trickling out from around the pintle. When the new valve arrives I’ll make sure not to crush the seal on the sensor thus tripping the code again. Thanks for that tip!

                              I think going forward I’m going to make it a habit to pull the valve every so often and clean it. I agree with you in not putting a screen in. I would rather have the valve plug over the passages. I could see bypassing the cooler possibly helping but I wonder if sending hitter gases back would cause other unintended negative consequences.

                              Thanks for all the help on this guys! The CFI will continue on!


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                                #30
                                Care to share a pic, model number etc of the breakout box?

                                Looking to learn a bit more about it.
                                ~David~

                                My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
                                My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

                                Originally posted by ootdega
                                My life is a long series of "nevermind" and "I guess not."

                                Originally posted by DerekTheGreat
                                But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

                                Originally posted by gadget73
                                my car starts and it has AC. Yours doesn't start and it has no AC. Seems obvious to me.




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