PotM GrandMarq.NET - Panther Headquarters Forum Index PotM
GMN Chat Room GMN's STORE!! GMN's Gallery Please!!
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Yep, Headers Again! (351W, Specifically)

  1. #1
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default Yep, Headers Again! (351W, Specifically)

    OK, I get from my perusing that some of the old time members are weary of explaining to every Panther "newbie" what works and what won't. I'm not new to Panthers, but I haven't attempted any serious hopping up of one until recently. I'm swapping to a 351W in my (now 302) '79 LTD wag. Cam and compression are to be "relatively" mild (for later proposed blower installation), heads are Edelbrock Performer RPM w/ the 2.02" intakes, a Carter (Edelbrock, Weber, whatever you choose to call it!) AFB or AVS from my vast collection, plus a few secrets I'm keeping to myself... I looked into doing the stroker thing, but I think I'm going to stick with the 3.5" and pump a respectable amount of air and fuel through it.

    I've done my "due diligence", and I know (or think I know?) that there is not an off-the-shelf long-tube header that will fit. If I go to the Jegs site and pump in "1979/Ford/LTD/Base/V8 (5.8L/351)", it shows that Hooker Super Comp Headers Part Number 520-6124 will fit my vehicle! Based on the other vehicles in the application list, I'm almost sure they are confusing a '79 LTD "Panther" with a Torino-derived '79 LTDII. If anyone could verify this one way or the other, I would appreciate it.

    I also know that the BBK 1511 "shorty" (1-5/8" primary) is a "go-to" header for the 351 box crowd, and also the MAC 58134 (1-3/4" primary). I would definitely want to go with the larger primary tube of the MAC, but yikes, the price! I would much prefer a long-tube header. I have welding/fabricating skills (MIG, TIG, you name it), but I'm also very lazy, and this is supposed to be a nice relaxing, simple build! I don't mind heating and tweaking here and there, or the occasional massaging by bashing with a mallet and/or improvised metal object, but I don't want to have to completely re-engineer a set of headers or build from scratch. If anyone has some good pictures of what they got to work, and a basic description of what they had to do, again, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm planning to run the C4 "what came in it", at least for now. I was going to swap to an AOD, but I'm starting to get used to driving around town at nearly 3000rpm in high gear, I may end up learning to live without the added weight and complexity of the OD trans.

    All comments are appreciated!
    Cheers,
    "Quincy"

    P. S. - Has anyone tried any fenderwell headers on a Box Panther? Seems like that would be a good place to dump out some exhaust - I had them on a '65 Plymouth Belvedere and loved them. Had to cut some sheet metal, being a unibody and all... probably just gut some molded plastic something-or-another on the Ford.
    Last edited by Quincy; 12-17-2020 at 01:35 AM.

  2. #2
    P31 Pursuit Car Brown_Muscle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,042

    Default

    Sounds like a fun build! You have done your research. I know a few people on here have made them work with some modifications, but I don't know how many of them are still active. Obviously the BBK/MAC headers and a mustang H-Pipe are the easiest route...but if you can fabricate I don't think its TOO crazy to modify the long-tubes to work.

    Highly recommend the AOD, especially if you build it up, it's such an upgrade over a C4 and a direct bolt in. I'm currently building a 351W and AOD for my LTD

    What rear gear ratio do you have?

    Hopefully someone with some real experience will chime in
    -Phil



    +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. 351w, GT40 Heads, Edelbrock 1906 Carb, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, Baumann Shift kit.

  3. #3
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    I've installed a "TrueTrac" from an '89 Mustang 8.8" together with some 4.10's I picked up somewhere, looks like from a Ranger or something, doesn't really matter, all 8.8" guts. I did some research on that too, wasn't 100% confident until the job was done, but the 8.8" (28 spline) ring/pinion and carrier was a BOLT-IN into the '79 8.5" housing (was 2.26:1 - my GOD was that pinion HUGE!!!). even the original companion flange bolted up.

    Question: Are you saying the AOD/C4 overall length are the same? What about the crossmember and yoke?

    Thanks!

  4. #4
    351W & F.A.S.T equipped
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Moore, SC
    Posts
    479

    Default

    2.26 to 4.10 has to be a MASSIVE difference! Lol. My recommendation, before adding big power, is a rear that can handle it. Id pluck a 03+ rear end...31 spline axles that are MUCH beefier than our 28-spline counterparts. Also, such a swap will net you some much needed rear disc brakes. You will need to cut your brackets off your old housing and weld to the later model.

    As for headers, Ill be running Hedman 1 5/8 longtubes for a Fox. Minor tweak of the fuel line on the driver side and a notch of the frame on the passenger side just behind and below the motor mount. Requires a cut #3 primary tube to facilitate install/removal and starter replacement. A 1 5/8 butt-joint style band clamp will take care of the joint.

  5. #5
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sick88tbird View Post
    2.26 to 4.10 has to be a MASSIVE difference! Lol. My recommendation, before adding big power, is a rear that can handle it. I’d pluck a ‘03+ rear end...31 spline axles that are MUCH beefier than our 28-spline counterparts. Also, such a swap will net you some much needed rear disc brakes. You will need to cut your brackets off your old housing and weld to the later model.

    As for headers, I’ll be running Hedman 1 5/8” longtubes for a Fox. Minor tweak of the fuel line on the driver side and a notch of the frame on the passenger side just behind and below the motor mount. Requires a cut #3 primary tube to facilitate install/removal and starter replacement. A 1 5/8 butt-joint style band clamp will take care of the joint.
    On the rear, the deed is already done. I hear ya on the axles, but If they start a-snappin', I plan to upgrade to some aftermarket (stronger) 28-splines for simplicity. Still not as good as 31 spline, but I'm betting some good Strange 28's (or similar) will be fine for my purposes. '03 up rearend would require major cutting/aligning/rewelding, as the control arms were relocated outboard on '03 and later. I think the track is wider as well, which would affect wheel fitment. I'm not even altogether sure an '02 - back is a bolt in for a box-body (somebody chime in, please). They looked different to me when I've had them on the lift, but I didn't measure/compare, etc.

    Thanks for the info on the headers. Please post pics when you are doing the install if you can!

    P. S. - why do you think I need rear disc brakes? This car's going to the dragstrip, not the road course!
    Last edited by Quincy; 12-17-2020 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #6
    P31 Pursuit Car Brown_Muscle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,042

    Default

    My vehicle came with an 8.5 as well. 2.26 is dreadful, the 2.73's that I had were bad enough!

    That's a good question about the crossmember/driveshaft. I THINK they might be the same, but I honestly can't say. So few member have a panther with a C4, that was a very early option. If it doesn't work, its very easy to find an AOD crossmember and matching driveshaft. Heck I have a stock police steel driveshaft laying around. If you want to get fancy you can find an aluminum driveshaft from a later model crown vic, that with yoke/u-joint changed will go right in (I have one in mine). I also have a rear from a 94 grand marquis in my LTD, I believe up to 97 will bolt in and are about 1" wider than the box bodies
    -Phil



    +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. 351w, GT40 Heads, Edelbrock 1906 Carb, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, Baumann Shift kit.

  7. #7
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Thanks for the good info, Brown_Muscle. I know where a bunch of "civvy" box CV's are in various junkyards. I just assumed I would need to get the shaft and crossmember from one of these (or even the trans as well as long as it's the non-electronic one). Like I said, I'm very lazy, if I can get by with my C4 shaft and xmember, it'd just save me some trouble and minor expense. I have a feeling my stock '79 driveshaft/joints aren't going to hang, though. More worried about it than I am the axles at this point. Definitely installing a driveshaft loop!!!

  8. #8
    351W & F.A.S.T equipped
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Moore, SC
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Man, I spaced out on the 351w part. Ill be running those Hedmans on a 5.0. My 351w coupe has BBK shorties...Im going turbo on that one so I never even considered longtubes for the 351w.

  9. #9
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sick88tbird View Post
    Man, I spaced out on the 351w part. I’ll be running those Hedmans on a 5.0. My 351w coupe has BBK shorties...I’m going turbo on that one so I never even considered longtubes for the 351w.
    The BBK's bolt right up in the 351 box without any fitment issues? I may end up with shorties for simplicity/laziness sake.

    Back to your point on the rear end, I realize I may end up eating my words and modifying a 31-spline housing to fit - I had already pondered that. I'll wait 'till I start puking parts though. Hell, since I've got to do a bunch of welding and fitting if I end up doing that, I might just eventually go with a Ford 9" - lot's of extra weight to help plant the @$$ end as well!!!

  10. #10
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    39,927

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sick88tbird View Post
    2.26 to 4.10 has to be a MASSIVE difference! Lol. My recommendation, before adding big power, is a rear that can handle it. I’d pluck a ‘03+ rear end...31 spline axles that are MUCH beefier than our 28-spline counterparts. Also, such a swap will net you some much needed rear disc brakes. You will need to cut your brackets off your old housing and weld to the later model.

    Won't fit. The mounting arrangement on the 98+ is different and won't jive with box rear control arms. With a welder and some fab work to re-design the mounts and install a watts link it will go but its definitely not an easy swap. Through 1997 is the same mounting arrangement. 92+ is a bit wider in the rear and has disc brakes. 8.8" 28 spline. Honestly not really a strength upgrade over an 8.5 though. Same axles, same housing, same carrier, just 1/4" more ring gear diameter.

    the folks on here who have blown up stock rears haven't had the axles break at the splines. The carrier explodes and comes out of the housing. Those of us who have had axles fail, it didn't fail at the splines. It was a bearing issue and the axle breaks right at the outer bearing. I really don't think 28 vs 31 splines is going to make all that much difference.

    and screw the C4. it is the most aptly named transmission though, they blow up. Hands down the worst shifting automatics I've ever had the displeasure to drive, the living definition of slush box. And this comes from a guy who has an AOD with well over 200k miles on it. I'd even take a Powerglide over a C4, and thats my other least favorite automatic. They also shift like garbage but they don't break so much.
    Last edited by gadget73; 12-17-2020 at 09:59 PM.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  11. #11
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    ...Honestly not really a strength upgrade over an 8.5 though. Same axles, same housing, same carrier, just 1/4" more ring gear diameter....

    and screw the C4....
    Thanks, lots of informative information! The purpose of my change to the 8.8" carrier was not with the goal of any added strength, however. The change was so I could use commonly available 8.8" gears, limited slip diffs. etc. Go find a 4.10 gear to fit a '79 8.5" carrier (or ANY ratio, for that mater)!

    ...and YEAH, SCREW the C4!!! I'm no fan of any particular Ford trans, heck, I'm not even a ford guy, but I'm running it until I nuke it because that's what I've got already installed. Found a sweet deal on a secondhand Art Carr converter for it, too... At the point of failure, I'll probably upgrade. If I FUBAR the 8.5/8.8/28 spline rear, I'll address it at that point too. I'll be having fun and adventure all along the way!

  12. #12
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    ...replying to my own post, above. After thinking about this carefully, I really can't honestly say the 8.8" carrier is any different than the 8.5", save for the fact that I went from open diff to limited slip. gadget73 is correct in the fact that all the bearings/races, and inside dimensions (bearing spacing, depth, etc.) are identical between the 8.5" and 8.8" 28 spline rear ends. That's how I was able to drop 8.8" guts right in; whether or not a 8.8" ring gear will bolt onto an 8.5" carrier, I have no idea. The dimension is the outside diameter of the ring gear, so the mounting could conceivably be the same. But since I wanted a limited slip carrier, it's a moot point for me. Still, I may grab up the 8.5" open carrier (I kept it!) and see if I can bolt one of these other 8.8" ring gears to it (I also picked up some used 3.73 and 3.55 sets in case I decide to change up).
    Last edited by Quincy; 12-18-2020 at 12:00 AM.

  13. #13
    Member of the Orb Alliance packman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Dirty Jersey Yo!
    Posts
    8,183

    Default

    I tried a set of the MAC 1-3/4" shorties and the collectors pointed into the starter on the passenger side and the edge of the AOD bellhousing on the driver side. I will double check to see if they were the 58134 headers. I ended up modifying and installing Doug's Tri-Y headers for a sbf '67-'70 Mustang. Squished the crap out of the forward primary tube on the driver side to clear the X-member.

  14. #14
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by packman View Post
    I tried a set of the MAC 1-3/4" shorties and the collectors pointed into the starter on the passenger side and the edge of the AOD bellhousing on the driver side. I will double check to see if they were the 58134 headers. I ended up modifying and installing Doug's Tri-Y headers for a sbf '67-'70 Mustang. Squished the crap out of the forward primary tube on the driver side to clear the X-member.
    Thanks! This is also very helpful info! Please do follow up with that MAC #, because they're currently at the top of my list if I don't figure out some long tubes. Looking into Those Doug Thorley's as we speak...

  15. #15
    Member of the Orb Alliance packman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Dirty Jersey Yo!
    Posts
    8,183

    Default

    Hmmmm.......interesting. My packing list says 58134; but I double checked the box; and it says 58434. Which kinda makes sense as I had to return the 1st set of headers because the flanges had a wave in them. The replacements are what I have in the basement. Strange as I can't find 58434. They must be specific to the T5; or some other transmission as they don't fit on my engine/trans combo. Your 58134 headers may actually fit. Wish I had caught that when I got the replacements; as I would have returned them and got the proper replacements.

  16. #16
    GooGooG'Joob Quincy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by packman View Post
    Your 58134 headers may actually fit. Wish I had caught that when I got the replacements; as I would have returned them and got the proper replacements.
    All I know is they are listed at the MAC site as 351W conversion shorties for a Fox body. I was hoping someone else had actually tried them!

    https://www.shop.macperformance.com/...ders-58134.htm

  17. #17
    P31 Pursuit Car Brown_Muscle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,042

    Default

    Warranty certainly seems better than BBK... coating failed after a year for me

    *Edit: i see it excludes surface rust. I don't think ceramic coatings last at all.

    If I were to redo this I would make some 302 Stainless headers work and extend/change the h-pipe to work

    https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Man...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
    Last edited by Brown_Muscle; 12-18-2020 at 04:13 PM.
    -Phil



    +1982 Ford LTD-S Police Car. 351w, GT40 Heads, Edelbrock 1906 Carb, Full exhaust headers to tails. 3.27 Trac-Lok Rear. Aluminum Police Driveshaft. Speedway Springs+Bilstein Shocks, Intermediate Brakes, Baumann Shift kit.

  18. #18
    351W & F.A.S.T equipped
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Moore, SC
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    Won't fit. The mounting arrangement on the 98+ is different and won't jive with box rear control arms. With a welder and some fab work...
    Thats what I was saying, welding reqd. For some reason, I was thinking that the 05-11 had physically larger diameter axles, which they dont. That swap wouldnt be worth it to the OP now that I remember that. Excuse the brain fart!

  19. #19
    Lets put cough drops in out buttholes and play video games DuceAnAHalf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    6,677

    Default

    I had midlength mustang headers on my 351, it required cutting several tubes and altering how they run in regards to the steering shaft

  20. #20
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    39,927

    Default

    holy shit, a ghost from the past

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
GMN Approved Links!


www.rockauto.com www.adtr.net