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    E 85 fuel question

    Hey guys. My Town Car has 435,XXX on it, and I know the previous owner ( Limo company/regular service at our shop) only ran straight gasoline in it. With this kind of mileage, can I run E-85? With the rising cost of fuel, along with the price difference per gallon ($1.559/$2.799), would it be safe to switch over? Obviously, with that big a price gap, the drop in economy would be negligible.
    MIKE

    #2
    You can run the E-85 however you will notice that it does not run well. First of all the E-85 gas does not last. Only about 30 days. gas without ethanol lasts much longer. It does not gum up your fuel system either. If you store your vehicle, I discourage using anything other than ethanol free. Gas mileage and performance are better. In our area, Citgo supplies the ethanol free 90 octance at $2.99 a gallon. Can't speak of other areas of the country. Pay the extra price for good gas now or pay for expensive fuel system repairs later.

    Comment


      #3
      As long as your car is flex fuel, you can.

      I wouldn’t unless you are driving it daily and go through a lot of fuel per month.

      We don’t really have E85 locally. A few stations have started with an E15 option. I run the E10 stuff in my daily drivers but my other stuff gets the non ethanol fuel.
      1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
      1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

      GMN Box Panther History
      Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
      Box Panther Production Numbers

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        #4
        Here in New York, all stations are minimum of E10. I do notice a big difference, when I gas up car with the ethanol free in West Virginia when I go to visit my mom. The car is my daily driver, running about 35 miles round trip to work. And then I do a run around with it a lot on the weekend.
        Mike

        Comment


          #5
          The fuel mixture will be way off for E85. I also don't know about the O rings and other parts in the fuel system. If you replaced the rubber parts and tuned the ECM to deliver the additional fuel needed, no reason it wouldn't work. Won't gain you anything, fuel might be cheaper but its going to use more of it, plus the cost of conversion. Would likely take a long time to pay for itself.

          Where it might make sense is if you were running it boosted. The higher octane of the ethanol is much less prone to detonation, which is helpful for elevated cylinder temps.

          otherwise, stick to E10.
          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

          Originally posted by phayzer5
          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

          Comment


            #6
            What year is the tc? A flex fuel panther will have the colder spark plugs, bigger injectors, and a flex fuel computer that determines what your ethanol/gas mixture is based on a few factors occuring upon startup.

            Comment


              #7
              GM Guy,
              As I said, it's a 2010, and it is Flex Fuel. It's the high mileage, and the fact the previous owner NEVER used E-85, that has me questioning whether or not to use it.
              Mike

              Comment


                #8
                oftenimes the smart money is on not messing with things
                86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                Originally posted by phayzer5
                I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                Comment


                  #9
                  2010 won't care. The lines are all designed to take ethanol. The only issue you would have is if the fuel content sensor is wonky. But that would probably cause issues with regular gas too.

                  Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                  rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                  Originally posted by gadget73
                  ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                  Originally posted by dmccaig
                  Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by PICKUP6772 View Post
                    GM Guy,
                    As I said, it's a 2010, and it is Flex Fuel. It's the high mileage, and the fact the previous owner NEVER used E-85, that has me questioning whether or not to use it.
                    I don't read every thread here if you mentioned it elsewhere.

                    Originally posted by sly View Post
                    2010 won't care. The lines are all designed to take ethanol. The only issue you would have is if the fuel content sensor is wonky. But that would probably cause issues with regular gas too.
                    Don't even need to worry about that, there isn't one, the computer determines ethanol percentage. Does its magic when certain conditions are met (fuel fill being a primary factor), monitors sensors and bases its fuel tables on the results.

                    Alex.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by fsm
                      In order to maintain proper fuel control, the PCM strategy needs to know the stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio for use in
                      the fuel pulse width equation. On pre-2000 MY flex fuel vehicles, the percent alcohol in the fuel was determined by
                      reading the output of the Flex fuel Sensor. The percent alcohol was stored in a register called Percent Methanol
                      (PM). Although current alcohol-blended fuels only include ethanol, the percent methanol nomenclature has
                      persisted. On 2000 MY and later vehicles, the Flex Fuel Sensor has been deleted and PM is inferred. The strategy
                      to infer the correct A/F Ratio (AFR) relies on the oxygen sensor input to maintain stoichiometry after vehicle
                      refueling occurs.
                      [...]
                      The fuel level input is used to determine if a refueling event has occurred, either after the initial start or while the
                      engine is running. If refueling event is detected (typically calibrated as a 10% increase in fuel level), the PCM tracks
                      the "old" fuel being consumed by the engine. After a calibrated amount of "old" fuel has been consumed from the
                      fuel lines, fuel rail, etc., the "new" fuel is assumed to have reached the engine. Normal long term fuel trim learning
                      and purge control are temporarily disabled along with the evaporative system monitor and fuel system monitor to
                      allow the composition of the fuel to be determined. The filtered value of short-term fuel trim is used during closed
                      loop to adjust AFR in order to maintain stoichiometry. During learning, all changes in AFR are stored into the
                      AFRMOD register. As updates are made to the AFRMOD register, the fuel composition register (PM) is updated
                      and stored in Keep Alive Memory. Learning continues until the inference stabilizes with stabilized engine operating
                      conditions. The PM inference and engine operating conditions are considered to have stabilized when all of the
                      following conditions are satisfied:

                      • ECT indicates the engine has warmed up (typically 170 °F) or an ECT related fault is present.
                      • Enough "new" fuel has been consumed (typically 0.5 lb - vehicle dependant) to insure fuel is adequately
                      mixed.
                      • The filtered value of short term fuel trim is in tight fuel control around stoichiometry, (typically +/- 2%) for at
                      least 5 O2 sensor switches or AFRMOD is at a clip.
                      • The engine has been operated for a calibratable length of time, based on ECT temperature at start
                      (typically 200 sec. at 40 °F and 30 sec at 200 °F) or an ECT related fault is present.
                      • The engine has been operating in closed loop fuel, with the brake off, within a calibratable (off-idle) air
                      mass region (typically 2.4 to 8 lb/min) for 5 seconds, to minimize the effect of errors such as vacuum
                      leaks.

                      Once the value of PM has stabilized (usually about 7 miles of driving), AFRMOD and PM are locked and deemed
                      to be "mature." After PM is deemed "mature," normal fuel trim learning and purge control are re-enabled along with
                      the fuel system monitor and evaporative system monitor. Any observed fueling errors from that point on are rolled
                      into normal long term fuel trim (via adaptive fuel learning).

                      All remaining OBD-II monitors remain enabled unless AFR is observed to be changing. If AFR is changing, all
                      monitors (except CCM and EGR) are disabled until the AFR stabilizes. This logic is same as was used for FFV
                      applications that used a sensor. The AFR rate of change required to disable OBD-II monitor operation is typically
                      0.1 A/F (rate is based on the difference between a filtered value and the current value). For a fuel change from
                      gasoline to E85 or vice versa, AFR typically stabilizes after 2 to 3 minutes on an FTP cycle.

                      If a large refueling event is detected (typically calibrated as a 40% to 50% increase in fuel level), the PCM strategy
                      tries to assign the "new" fuel as gasoline or ethanol (E85) on the assumption that the only fuels available are either
                      gasoline or E85. The strategy performs this fuel assignment to gasoline or ethanol (E85) only if the "old" and the
                      "new" stabilized inferred fuel composition values are within a specified amount of each other (typically 5-10%),
                      indicating that the fuel in the tank is the same as the fuel that was added and therefore must be either gasoline or
                      ethanol (E85). If the "old" and "new" stabilized inferred fuel composition values are not near each other, the fuel
                      added must be different from what was in the tank and the strategy retains the current inferred value of PM until the
                      next refuel. By assigning the fuel to gasoline or ethanol (E85) in this manner, normal fuel system errors can be
                      learned into normal long term fuel trip for proper fuel system error diagnosis.

                      After a battery disconnect or loss of Keep Alive Memory, the strategy will infer AFR immediately after going into
                      closed loop fuel operation. A vehicle that previously had fuel system errors learned into long term fuel trim will infer
                      incorrect values of AFR. After the value of AFR is determined, it is fixed until the next refueling event. If the next
                      refueling event is performed with the same fuel (either E85 or gasoline), the value of AFR will not change. The fuel
                      is then assigned to be E85 or gasoline as explained above. The long term fuel trim will again be a reliable
                      indication of normal fuel system errors.

                      Only one large tank fill is required to assign the fuel as being either gasoline or ethanol, if the inferred AFR did not
                      change significantly. If AFR did change significantly, several tank fills with the same fuel may be necessary to
                      assign the fuel as gasoline or ethanol.

                      As the vast majority of vehicles are expected to be operated with gasoline, the initial value of AFR is set to
                      gasoline. This is the starting point for the AFR after a battery disconnect and will allow for normal starting. Some
                      vehicles may have E85 in the fuel tank after having a battery disconnect, and may not have a good start or drive
                      away. The startability of alcohol-blended fuels at extreme cold temperatures (< 0 °F) is difficult under normal
                      conditions; these vehicles may be required to be towed to a garage for starting if a battery disconnect occurs.
                      ..

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Interesting. Good to know.

                        Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                        rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                        Originally posted by gadget73
                        ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                        Originally posted by dmccaig
                        Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Alex, I've been busy as hell, and just realized I didn't mention the year in the original post. My apologies.
                          Mike

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