Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

EGR Delete --- Can you calm my fears?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    I should have added this question to above. I'm assuming this turns the car in to a single belt system - not a two belt system correct?

    Comment


      #17
      Still two belt. Just eliminates the smog pump so this belt will run on the crank, A/C, and have the single idler.

      I always liked the two belt setup. I figured it gave me a better shot of not being stranded.
      1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, next project
      1988 Crown Vic LTD Wagon - waiting in the wings

      GMN Box Panther History
      Box Panther Horsepower and Torque Ratings
      Box Panther Production Numbers

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Tiggie View Post
        Still two belt. Just eliminates the smog pump so this belt will run on the crank, A/C, and have the single idler.

        I always liked the two belt setup. I figured it gave me a better shot of not being stranded.

        Yea.... I realized after I posted that---- that belt is not even close to being long enough

        Thank you for confirming

        Comment


          #19
          So I haven't installed the new belt to go around the pump. I wanted to do some testing and see if I can better understand this system..

          Right now - I have the downward pipe that went to the cats disconnected. So you have the pump to the valve. The downward pipe is disconnected and the pipe that goes back to the back of the heads is still connected.

          I started the car in this configuration - after about a 1 to 2 mins the valve opened to the CATS or to nothing in this case.

          My question is - is the pump pumping air in the back of the heads during start up? Is this normal operation?

          Why is it doing this?

          My shop manual tells me how to fix it, but it doesn't tell me why. (LOL)

          Thanks for the information.
          Kyle

          Comment


            #20
            I think I found my answer:

            https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...88-5-0.840826/

            Comment


              #21
              yep, thats about how it works. Air goes into the back of the heads at startup to help warm the cats quicker, then switches to air feed to the cats. Can't have air going in the heads during closed loop otherwise the O2 sensor readings are not accurate. With modern cats that don't have the air pipes, that pump is doing almost nothing.
              86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
              5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

              91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

              1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

              Originally posted by phayzer5
              I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

              Comment


                #22
                There's one aspect to this that always gets overlooked, and I'll just throw it in here because why not...
                Secondary air injection existed before catalytic converters, and it serves a purpose above and beyond just helping the cats do what they do.
                The fact that it helps the cats is not the primary reason it was ever used. The primary reason it was used is because adding fresh air immediately after the exhaust valves (e.g. at the exhaust ports, in the manifold, around that area) allows the combustion process to finish more fully (exhaust is only partially burnt), and reduces the amount of "un-combusted stuff" that goes out in the exhaust. I don't have a good grasp on the chemistry of it but my understanding is that the exhaust becomes significantly less reactive after the air injection, therefore is less harmful to the environment.

                Therefore: Cats, secondary air injection, and and EGR are all independent systems, and all provide meaningful benefits individually.
                Cats can also be assisted by secondary air injection to do a better job and last longer (and many early cats do sort of require it because they were designed expecting it to be there).

                If you are hell-bent on deleting emissions gear, even understanding that it offers you no real benefit to do so, secondary air injection is the one you can sort of afford to ditch, EGR is definitely the one to always keep forever, and cats...well, you should keep those too, but the automotive enthusiast community overall seems to see them as an enemy even though they don't hurt anything and only do good things.

                My excuse to the auto enthusiasts who scratch their heads at me saying I put new cats on my cars is that it makes fitment way easier to use direct-fit stuff, and the cost to pay a shop to make custom downpipes competes with the price of the cats...which is true. Internally, I have more reasons, because I believe the science, but some people start ignoring you as soon as you talk about the environment and need a "better reason". I recognize that OP is in Michigan and Michigan is perhaps the US capital of deleting cats, but I really believe this is only popular because many people don't actually understand or care and, the remainder who might just does the same thing everyone else does.
                Last edited by kishy; 07-06-2021, 10:31 AM.

                Current driver: Ranger
                Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                | 88 TC | 91 GM
                Not Panthers: 85 Ranger | Ranger trailer | 91 Acclaim | 05 Focus
                Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC | 04 Focus | 86 GM
                | Junkyards

                Comment


                  #23
                  Doesn't the smog pump also provide extra vacuum to the cruise control?

                  One reason to run without cats is that thieves can't steal what's not there.
                  1987 Lincoln Town Car - Signature, "Prudence"

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Yeah the secondary air injection helps with combustion byproducts, but its also incompatible with closed loop operation so it works for a very limited amount of time. It helps deal with cold start / rich running emissions by helping to burn that off, which also warms up that first cat quicker. Given that, I'd consider it overall to be of limited value, especially with newer converters that are installed further away than the originals were which don't need the extra air.

                    I'm not particularly anti-emission. The Towncar lost it's smog pump when it went bad, but it still has cats of the modern type that don't need air injection. The black Mark VII was the same story. I never actually removed any of the hardware on the black car, other than the pulley so I could route the belt around it. The white Mark VII still has a working smog pump and newer cats. Until it gives me trouble it stays. EGR works on all my gas powered stuff, same with the other emissions bits.
                    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                    Originally posted by phayzer5
                    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by kishy View Post
                      ...Therefore: Cats, secondary air injection, and and EGR are all completely systems, and all provide meaningful benefits individually.
                      Cats can also be assisted by secondary air injection to do a better job and last longer (and many early cats do sort of require it because they were designed expecting it to be there).

                      If you are hell-bent on deleting emissions gear, even understanding that it offers you no real benefit to do so, secondary air injection is the one you can sort of afford to ditch, EGR is definitely the one to always keep forever, and cats...well, you should keep those too, but the automotive enthusiast community overall seems to see them as an enemy even though they don't hurt anything and only do good things.

                      My excuse to the auto enthusiasts who scratch their heads at me saying I put new cats on my cars is that it makes fitment way easier to use direct-fit stuff, and the cost to pay a shop to make custom downpipes competes with the price of the cats...which is true. Internally, I have more reasons, because I believe the science, but some people start ignoring you as soon as you talk about the environment and need a "better reason". I recognize that OP is in Michigan and Michigan is perhaps the US capital of deleting cats, but I really believe this is only popular because many people don't actually understand or care and, the remainder who might just does the same thing everyone else does.
                      Indeed. All of the stuff I drive must have a cat on it. I refuse to smell like hydrocarbons after just five minutes of driving and don't want to be "that stinky fuckin' car in front of me" guy. I bought what I thought would be a dual cat set up to allow me to do true duals on my truck. Didn't fit but the truck had to be ready for our road trip a few months back. So I had the exhaust done without a cat as it had to be done. Despite the shop saying "you don't need one" and it costing me more money, I bought a Walker universal fit 3" and had it installed after the road trip. No more stinky truck.
                      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Everything I run has cats except my old Merc.
                        Thievery is definitely an issue, as the going rate for a cat off a Super Duty is around a grand..
                        I intend to put new cats on Sherrie next year of the 2-1/2" variety, and the current plan is to keep all her OEM emissions equipment intact. which brings up a question.
                        Anybody got a new or damn close to it air pump that's fit my '86.?
                        All FORD All The Time

                        Comment


                          #27
                          aftermarket cats aren't as desirable, so slightly less of a theft issue. Some OE cats are crazy expensive though.
                          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                          Originally posted by phayzer5
                          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X