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1991 Mark VII Dead. Details inside, help needed. :)

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    #16
    Originally posted by Lincolnmania View Post
    i know for a fact the timing was good on that engine....iirc i had it set to 12btdc for slightly more oomph.
    sounds like this shop may be clueless about the spout connector.
    thats my point, it sounds like the shop may have fixed a harness problem, which was causing the engine to die/sputter, but then timed the engine incorrectly. which is why I am saying to pull the spout connector, use the correct timing marks and re-time the engine.

    Gadget also makes a good point of mechanically checking the balancer by putting #1 cylinder on TDC and see where the pointer lands.
    2003 Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, Dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 9/2011
    89 Crown Victoria LX HPP -- SOLD 9/2010
    88 Grand Marquis LS - The Original -- Totaled 5/2006


    I rebuild AOD/AODE/4R70W/4R75E transmissions....Check out my Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/North...48414635312478

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      #17
      Originally posted by Lincolnmania View Post
      fuel pump is original
      Originally posted by Lincolnmania View Post
      the fuel filter i changed prob 6 yrs ago.
      When I put it all back together we drove it for a couple weeks then went through and changed all the fluids and filters. I can't check the fuel pressure when moving but at idle it's 35psi or better. I don't like the gauge though, it holds the pressure reading after it's removed and so sometimes when I'm checking it, the pressure slowly creeps up.. I heard checking fuel pressure with a tire gauge is a good way to wreck said tire gauge, gotta get a real gauge...

      Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
      Thats a 91, should be the good chain. I changed mine north of 200K and it was actually not worn enough to worry over.
      Balancer could be spun though. That will make the timing look to be all screwed up even if its not.
      Originally posted by knucklehead0202 View Post
      ^^^Balancer is totally worth a look. Seems like me and all my buddies with HO cars back in the day shit balancers at some point, and that was 15 years ago or so. Food for thought.
      I'll take a look at that. Theoretically, if the thing has spun I still should be able to set the timing close enough so I won't have too much advance though right? Seems I can't get it right.
      Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
      One other thought is the inertia shut down switch going bad
      How does one check for that, you talking about the thing in the trunk?

      Originally posted by 88grandmarq View Post
      hold up a minute.... Make sure you are are following the proper timing procedure, because it doesn't sound like you are using the correct marks.

      1) there are degreed marks on the balancer, which read BTDC and ATDC, make sure you are using the correct ones. use a wire brush, or something similar, and clean the balancer so you can see these marks. use a white paint marker or wax pen and clearly highlight 0 degrees and 10 degreed BTDC. the white markings should show up clearly with a timing light.
      I believe I am using the right marks, the ATDC marks only go to 10 degrees whereas the BTDC run up to 30 IIRC. 10 was already highlighted by the shop, verified that by wiping their mark away to make mine.

      Originally posted by 88grandmarq View Post
      2) make sure you are removing the timing spout connector from the harness, this removes the timing advance the ECM adds to the timing curve. it should be in the harness near the TFI module connection. - NOTE, only remove and install the connector the the KEY OFF. A Ford engineer I talked to many years ago told me removing the spout connector with key ON can cause damage to the TFI module.

      3) use a proper timing light and make sure you are connected to #1 spark plug wire.

      4) use the correct the timing marks - As you pointed out, you should be using flat trailing edge to the right (in your picture) with the spout connector removed, engine running and the timing light installed, twist the distributor until the 10 degree BTDC mark lines up with the flat area of the pointer.
      I did have the spout connector removed, although in my frenzy of trying to find a workable tune I ended up removing it a few times with the engine running. I always put it back in with the engine running. Didn't seem to do any damage... Also, it did seem to me that the shop had no clue about the connector.. Anyway, when I set the timing I initially used the flat trailing edge off to the right, idle was great and everything else was too, up until you put your foot in it. At that point, it acted like it had a misfire or wasn't getting enough fuel. It also did not want to restart when cold, unless timing was advanced. When I put my mark (10 degrees) at the "U" notch it fires right up every time but idles wonky in gear (stumbly) and there's major spark knock under almost any sort of load. So short of behaving like there's an egg under the pedal it's not drivable. That is how they shop gave the car to me. Assholes, this is what I get for trying to change shops... It's amazing the did the engine swap 95% correct on our truck and thankfully that has no issues and is 400% better than the motor that came out of it.

      Originally posted by Lincolnmania View Post
      i know for a fact the timing was good on that engine....iirc i had it set to 12btdc for slightly more oomph.
      sounds like this shop may be clueless about the spout connector.
      I wish I had checked the timing before I dropped it off there, didn't think they'd touch it. Was perfectly fine before. You could mash the gas with no problems and it ran great. Been temperamental ever since and I don't feel like letting them work on it any more.

      Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
      If none of this seems to add up, find TDC on the compression stroke of #1 and see if the balancer marks agree. If its way off, the balancer may be spun. Inspecting the rubber between the inner and outer ring will probably be a clue there. I would expect to see signs of damage, and the outer ring probably won't be sitting quite square. Mine had a visible wobble when running before I replaced it. It hadn't spun but the outer ring was shifting.
      Will do.

      It's starting, running and driving right now so I'll probably wait until this weekend before I touch it again. I found out that they DID NOT do anything to the ECM relay or it's harness. That relay lives on the passenger side firewall, right? There are two under the plastic cover, this one is black & brown and if jiggled, all sorts of things click and what not. If jiggled when the car is running, it hiccups... I've got it rigged so it's working (Helps if the thing is secured in it's living space). Can't get the car to act like that by jiggling any of the other relays. There are more living on the driver's side firewall and more just in front of the driver's side shock tower. The ones by the shock tower looked to have been messed with before, I noticed that when the car was dead at Home Depot..

      I'll also check slop using turbo's suggestion and if all else fails, pull the cap and watch the rotor for slop. Like gadget said I don't suspect the chain as it's a double roller and only has 151k on it.

      Thank you for all the help and suggestions, certainly helped get this thing back on the road although I feel like I paid them money for nothing. If it wasn't so cold at Home Depot and I didn't feel useless, I could have gotten it going then. If only I had jiggled the TFI harness lol.
      Last edited by DerekTheGreat; 11-13-2017, 07:55 AM.
      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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        #18
        replace the ECM relay and see if anything changes. It should not do stupid things when you touch it.
        86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
        5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

        91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

        1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

        Originally posted by phayzer5
        I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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          #19
          Had a guy next door had a 7 and had some trouble with it running. It was the inertia switch. It can be bypassed for a test best way to check. Just kinda thought of it as you said something about going over a few big bumps and started running funny. Make sure the red switch is all the way up and not kinda shaky it could still be bad.
          Scars are tatoos of the fearless

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            #20
            Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
            replace the ECM relay and see if anything changes. It should not do stupid things when you touch it.
            Word. So this small black & tan relay on the passenger firewall is indeed the ECM relay?

            Originally posted by turbo2256b View Post
            Had a guy next door had a 7 and had some trouble with it running. It was the inertia switch. It can be bypassed for a test best way to check. Just kinda thought of it as you said something about going over a few big bumps and started running funny. Make sure the red switch is all the way up and not kinda shaky it could still be bad.
            Aye, aye. Yes, that's what Ashley said happened and I did initially suspect that. I'll have to get my lazy carcass to a junkyard to get one just in case this thing is bad along with the ECM relay. Which Ford cars can I pilfer one from?
            1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
            1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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              #21
              brown-ish should be ECM... green fuel pump... white AC/WOT cutout relay... IIRC. If you need one known good and it's those stupid Ford only relays (not the universal Bosch style) I have the original from the 88 MGM I had.

              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
              rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
              Originally posted by gadget73
              ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
              Originally posted by dmccaig
              Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

              Comment


                #22
                One half is brownish or tan, the other half of it is black. It's smaller than all the others, which are green. Not sure about what lives on the driver's side firewall. I wonder if that thing going wonky has caused the ECM to smoke itself.

                Could you post pics of that bad Jackson by Friday or so?
                1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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                  #23
                  I agree that any type of contact (short of unplugging it) should not cause the relay to chatter at all.
                  Keep in mind that upon the ECM powering up, it will trigger the fuel pump relay, so both will click at first power on, this will magnify your perception of what is clicking and why.

                  I have pretty abusively manhandled my relays on the Townie when running and get nothing like that.

                  I would very carefully inspect the wiring. An intermittent wiring break that only seems to surface during wiggling would not be unlikely. Loose terminals in the relay socket could do it too. They can be unlatched and pulled out, then you could tighten their contacts somewhat and hit them with some contact cleaner. Be sure to do this one wire at a time so you don't lose track of which contact they belong to.

                  Originally posted by sly View Post
                  stupid Ford only relays
                  You could say that again. Application-specific relays with keyed bases so you can't even swap them in place of each other.

                  I believe the aftermarket produces a "Ford universal" type relay that fits all of the weird Ford socket keyings as well.

                  Current driver: Ranger
                  Panthers: 83 GM 2dr | 84 TC | 85 CS
                  | 88 TC | 91 GM
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                    #24
                    I can't remember which one is the ECM relay on these, but if you touch it and the engine goes retarded, obviously something is wrong with it or the wiring to it.
                    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                    Originally posted by phayzer5
                    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Yes. Aftermarket ones are available... and about as good as the "40A" relays in the stick-ons section of Autozone.

                      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                      rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                      Originally posted by gadget73
                      ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                      Originally posted by dmccaig
                      Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Time for a 2.4 swap
                        2020 F250 - 7.3 4x4 CCSB STX 3.55's - BAKFlip MX4
                        2005 Grand Marquis GS - Marauder sway bars, Marauder exhaust, KYB's
                        2003 Marauder - Trilogy # 8, JLT, kooks, 2.5" exhaust, 4.10's/31 spline, widened rear's, metco's, addco's, ridetech's 415hp/381tq
                        1987 Colony Park - 03+ frame swap, blown Gen II Coyote, 6R80, ridetechs, stainless works, absolute money pit. WIP

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by pantera77 View Post
                          Time for a 2.4 swap
                          with a bigger turbo.

                          Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                          rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                          Originally posted by gadget73
                          ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                          Originally posted by dmccaig
                          Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by sly View Post
                            with a bigger turbo.
                            Intercooler is more important.
                            2020 F250 - 7.3 4x4 CCSB STX 3.55's - BAKFlip MX4
                            2005 Grand Marquis GS - Marauder sway bars, Marauder exhaust, KYB's
                            2003 Marauder - Trilogy # 8, JLT, kooks, 2.5" exhaust, 4.10's/31 spline, widened rear's, metco's, addco's, ridetech's 415hp/381tq
                            1987 Colony Park - 03+ frame swap, blown Gen II Coyote, 6R80, ridetechs, stainless works, absolute money pit. WIP

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by pantera77 View Post
                              Intercooler is more important.
                              Both!

                              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                              rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                              Originally posted by gadget73
                              ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                              Originally posted by dmccaig
                              Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I need a damn EVTM manual for one of these things. It's killing me. I'll look for one today.

                                When I unplugged those relays the contacts didn't look rusty on either the harness or the relay, so I suspect it's as the Kishman pointed out.

                                LoL no swapping here, engine runs fine it's just the fuel/ignition management that seems to be suspect. However, if it turns out to be something like timing chain slop I guess we'll just drive it until it doesn't want to drive any more. I don't want to give up on the thing but then that's my problem, I get attached to cars I shouldn't get attached to haha.
                                1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
                                1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

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